Ryanair waiting for line training
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"I have not dared to contact them because I have been told that it may affect the future of my case"
Who told you that? Call Crewcontrol and see if they have any flying for you. But it will be difficult, as it's Christmas, and Dub will be busy with converstions. Free LTCs will be few and far between.
Sometimes you've got to stick your head above the parapet, If you don't ask you don't get no one will come calling you, and all the posting on PPRUNE is like pissing into the wind.
MK
"I have not dared to contact them because I have been told that it may affect the future of my case"
Who told you that? Call Crewcontrol and see if they have any flying for you. But it will be difficult, as it's Christmas, and Dub will be busy with converstions. Free LTCs will be few and far between.
Sometimes you've got to stick your head above the parapet, If you don't ask you don't get no one will come calling you, and all the posting on PPRUNE is like pissing into the wind.
MK
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But, when the pilot demand goes up , then no-one will pay for rating.
In other words, I think the days of inflexible and serious pilots shortages are gone forever. While that is just an opinion and only time can tell, I don't think it is an unconsidered opinion. In other words, the next generation of fALTP holders with 250 hours are already lining up with their hopes and debts ...... they will be even more desperate than the previous generation and will willingly work for next to nothing for their first job when the time comes. Ryanair has long known this and is sophisticated in its efforts to exploit such sentiments ... you, in turn, may come to see them in a different light.
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I hear everybody is saying that there is a pilot shortage, but nevertheless there are thousands of people out there who can't land their first job. All I am saying is that if there was an option cheaper than TRSS I think eveyone would go for that. And you can't blame the individuals choosing to solve their mess with paying for the rating and subsequent job. The only sollution I see is a political one, the different governments must regulate the situation by laws, and start treating the lot as people and give them rights as other students. Doctors, lawyers all have a system around them, which keeps them together. The employers come to them, not vice versa. You can't demand that one fATPL holder shall choose not to pay for the rating.
MK: You ask who told me not to contact them...well, how about the screaming voice in the other end of the phone. Some of us try from time to time, you see. But anyway, thanks for the info about calling crewcontrol, that's totally new to me.
They don't tell me/us anything. If I'd had a time frame, I could go working elsewhere in the meantime. That is the most disturbing in this mess.
MK: You ask who told me not to contact them...well, how about the screaming voice in the other end of the phone. Some of us try from time to time, you see. But anyway, thanks for the info about calling crewcontrol, that's totally new to me.
They don't tell me/us anything. If I'd had a time frame, I could go working elsewhere in the meantime. That is the most disturbing in this mess.
Last edited by DJ Mixmaster; 14th Dec 2005 at 20:08.
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Believe me that guys that have been with Ryanair for some time do sympathize and indeed empathize with your position. Many have been there in the past. In fact at past town hall meetings ( I know there have been none recently) the newbie terms and conditions have been raised. The fact is there is little or nothing we can do about it.
To play devils advocate for a moment Ryanair is a business. Its objective is to make money. Any business will try to get money from its customers as early as possible and deliver its products as late as possible. You are Ryanair customers. You have paid them a considerable amount of cash. When they need you, you will go through training faster than sh1t off of a chromed shovel. For now they don’t need you, or more precisely can’t use you (Trainers high on hour, lack of captains etc). The culture for people coming into flying nowadays seems to be: get your qualifications as fast as possible, get the minimum required hours then join an airline and worry about the huge dept you have run up later. I know it was back in the old days when aircraft were steam driven and evolution was a thing of the future but most of us served our apprenticeship as flying instructors, dropping parachutists or towing banners building experience and adding ratings as we went. I think a lot of you guys are victims of the culture: I want it and I want it now.
I’m sorry if this is a harsh lesson for you and I am inspired by the way a couple of the posters on this thread have realised their own mistakes and taken the time to warn others. The only advise I can give is keep pestering them for training and do what you can to earn some cash in the meantime even if it means working in macdonalds for a few weeks. Good luck to you all and hope to see you on line ASAP.
To play devils advocate for a moment Ryanair is a business. Its objective is to make money. Any business will try to get money from its customers as early as possible and deliver its products as late as possible. You are Ryanair customers. You have paid them a considerable amount of cash. When they need you, you will go through training faster than sh1t off of a chromed shovel. For now they don’t need you, or more precisely can’t use you (Trainers high on hour, lack of captains etc). The culture for people coming into flying nowadays seems to be: get your qualifications as fast as possible, get the minimum required hours then join an airline and worry about the huge dept you have run up later. I know it was back in the old days when aircraft were steam driven and evolution was a thing of the future but most of us served our apprenticeship as flying instructors, dropping parachutists or towing banners building experience and adding ratings as we went. I think a lot of you guys are victims of the culture: I want it and I want it now.
I’m sorry if this is a harsh lesson for you and I am inspired by the way a couple of the posters on this thread have realised their own mistakes and taken the time to warn others. The only advise I can give is keep pestering them for training and do what you can to earn some cash in the meantime even if it means working in macdonalds for a few weeks. Good luck to you all and hope to see you on line ASAP.
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idunno has the only solution.
i personally have no sympathy for you guys who buy your rating.you line up like a bunch of morons and part with your money,in turn screwing up the market.you do a chit chat with some knob from hr and then struggle through a 737 200 sim check.then most importantly sign the cheque.you come in with 200 hours and believe that you have earned the right to sit in the right seat.you cannot expect the respect of your peers and let the company ride roughshod all over you.you are no more than slaves and that is how you shall be treated.
i personally have no sympathy for you guys who buy your rating.you line up like a bunch of morons and part with your money,in turn screwing up the market.you do a chit chat with some knob from hr and then struggle through a 737 200 sim check.then most importantly sign the cheque.you come in with 200 hours and believe that you have earned the right to sit in the right seat.you cannot expect the respect of your peers and let the company ride roughshod all over you.you are no more than slaves and that is how you shall be treated.
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From DJMixmaster
Errr... Actually there is. In fact TRSS people joining airline ranks/ GA companies are still a minority but then again you have to be that kind of guy.
As for asking Senior pilot to fight your corner "because it ain't your fault if the market is like that", believe me, there are plenty of issues they are fighting for and in turn once you have joined your airline of choice/FR, you might be grateful for that. There is nothing then can do if YOU want to pay for your rating thinking you are owed a living afterward.
All I am saying is that if there was an option cheaper than TRSS I think eveyone would go for that.
As for asking Senior pilot to fight your corner "because it ain't your fault if the market is like that", believe me, there are plenty of issues they are fighting for and in turn once you have joined your airline of choice/FR, you might be grateful for that. There is nothing then can do if YOU want to pay for your rating thinking you are owed a living afterward.
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You really don't get it, do you? I have struggled and fought my way too, you see. ..back in the old days, it was either taxi driver or airline pilot after examination. Some were fortunate, some were not. Now, the things have changed. We have a vast diversity amongst pilots. I could have chosen NOT to fulfill my ambitions, but I had the option which a lot of your fellow students presumably never had. Namely to pay for the TR. I am not demanding any sympathy from anyone. I am actually quite proud of myself, because I had the guts. Now I have 60k in total debts for the education, and still content. But when I am put on hold for an indefinite amount of time..I get pissed off. I could, as mentioned, work on McDonald's..not the problem at all. But we're regularly being rostered for circuit training in the sim, which pretty much excludes every possibility of working.
And Grim...what can I say..you're obviously the judge here and I am guilty of all charges. But if we had met, I think you'd seen things in a different perspective. (I am really not here to "call names", and the word decency comes to mind, but what the heck everyone is entitled to having their own opinion.)
And Grim...what can I say..you're obviously the judge here and I am guilty of all charges. But if we had met, I think you'd seen things in a different perspective. (I am really not here to "call names", and the word decency comes to mind, but what the heck everyone is entitled to having their own opinion.)
Last edited by DJ Mixmaster; 14th Dec 2005 at 20:07.
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We get it....... DO YOU???? Listen (listen to my typing hehe!), the buying of type ratings isn't new - guys have been buying type ratings for some considerable time now and THAT nobody has a problem with! What they DO have a problem with is guys selling up and working for toffee. By doing this you worsen the terms and conditions of all in the industry whether you like it or not. Given the choice, an employer (particularly the modern day workhouses like FR and EZ) are only interested in legally filling seats. Our illustrious FOD is on record as saying FR would only get involved with Boeing on the dreamliner if it was able to be flown by one pilot!
Given that case as long as they can find guys who will work for nought they will fill their boots. Don't do it. Carry on instructing or selling burgers until they come to their senses!
You make reference to your "shear unluck" - 97 was a while ago and many others in this time have got jobs both with the big guys and with the turboprop operators. Are you sure there's not another reason you haven't gained employment other than "unluck".........?
Given that case as long as they can find guys who will work for nought they will fill their boots. Don't do it. Carry on instructing or selling burgers until they come to their senses!
You make reference to your "shear unluck" - 97 was a while ago and many others in this time have got jobs both with the big guys and with the turboprop operators. Are you sure there's not another reason you haven't gained employment other than "unluck".........?
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Now that is the sort of criticism I can work with WCF.
But I have to refer to myself, because the problem here is that you cannot unite individuals, that don't even know the other ones exist. How can I solve the problem with refusing a job offer...not gonna happen. The authorities have the power, they can create a system which excludes this insanity. And about the "unlucky" bit WCF, you're spot on, more like in the twenties, not fully comprehending where the market is...(living on the north-pole).
But I have to refer to myself, because the problem here is that you cannot unite individuals, that don't even know the other ones exist. How can I solve the problem with refusing a job offer...not gonna happen. The authorities have the power, they can create a system which excludes this insanity. And about the "unlucky" bit WCF, you're spot on, more like in the twenties, not fully comprehending where the market is...(living on the north-pole).
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Yes the pole is a bit of a problem but then you are joining the transport industry friend so "TRANSPORT"..... You obviously know that by now though as you have chosen to take an employer without a base in Lapland so well done on that point, the problem is how bigga sh@ft you are having to take for the pleasure 
It's a shame perhaps that you weren't either willing or able (I don't know which of course) to transport earlier a move which MAY have enabled you to gain "honest employment". I wish you luck however (as I am human NOT a real chicken) and sincerely hope in 5 years down the line you are not reading a similar thread on Pprune being asked by new cadets who are flying for food with your pay down around the €10k per year mark.......
As for the authorities....... What exactly would you have them do? Peel open MOL's personal bank account and throw his money in the air like confetti??? There's an idea..........
It's a shame perhaps that you weren't either willing or able (I don't know which of course) to transport earlier a move which MAY have enabled you to gain "honest employment". I wish you luck however (as I am human NOT a real chicken) and sincerely hope in 5 years down the line you are not reading a similar thread on Pprune being asked by new cadets who are flying for food with your pay down around the €10k per year mark.......
As for the authorities....... What exactly would you have them do? Peel open MOL's personal bank account and throw his money in the air like confetti??? There's an idea..........
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For what it is worth I think everyone is talking past each other. For understandable reasons mutual frustration is also showing itself. Each point of view is valid in its own context. But the "package of different contexts" leads to results that do not bode well for the future.
Just a reminder: on every occasion that Ryanair has been able to exploit divisions between different pilot groups they have done so without hesitation. When the pilot group has not been divided they found a method by which one lot could be separated from the others (utilising either greed or fear). With the exception of Dublin pilots (but only in recent times) this tactic has ALWAYS worked. However, that tactic is only required when the pilots look like sticking together - which does not happen very often.
The one thing that seems obvious is that falling out with each other is going to just make that process worse. And notwithstanding all the complaints about pilots associations, they look to me like the only hope (even if I don't see any signs of action). As I have said before, this is going to get a lot worse before it gets better.
Just a reminder: on every occasion that Ryanair has been able to exploit divisions between different pilot groups they have done so without hesitation. When the pilot group has not been divided they found a method by which one lot could be separated from the others (utilising either greed or fear). With the exception of Dublin pilots (but only in recent times) this tactic has ALWAYS worked. However, that tactic is only required when the pilots look like sticking together - which does not happen very often.
The one thing that seems obvious is that falling out with each other is going to just make that process worse. And notwithstanding all the complaints about pilots associations, they look to me like the only hope (even if I don't see any signs of action). As I have said before, this is going to get a lot worse before it gets better.
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There is a lot of info on www.repaweb.org any others waiting for line training should register there, lots of usefull info.
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Well, WCF, there is a huge gap between the thousands of unemployed pilots, and all the vacant positions...Why is it that this gap doesn't exist in other occupations? I think the answer is that 1. Our education does not give us the training required to operate any plane in general. 2. There are different levels of aviation (Jets, turbos, twins, singles)and thereby leaving us with the predicament. 3. You are left alone after graduation. The authorities could fund (like they do with other educations) the education, and acknowledge it as a step towards getting a job.
Finally, the mentioned gap doesn't exist in many of the other occupations, this has to do with some kind of structure/system which we don't have.
RYR is just a piece of the market, which determines the actions of the (desperate) individuals like myself...
Finally, the mentioned gap doesn't exist in many of the other occupations, this has to do with some kind of structure/system which we don't have.
RYR is just a piece of the market, which determines the actions of the (desperate) individuals like myself...
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Grim Repa,
i am suprised by your post, i assume from your title you are inolved with repaweb? Cant you be more constructive with your posting?
For all those waiting patience is your only option, keep on at rostering. A friend of mine did his base check the other day and there was only 3 of them as no one else could be found. You need to be flexible, LTC's are high on hours and busy training already. The LTC's where i am based are flat out and have been for as long as they can remember.
Things will never change with ryanair or any other airline as a precedence has been set already many years ago, dont knock the guys who are trying to make their way in an extremly difficult industry it is not their fault things are like this.
If anyone has a sensible suggestion(s) that allows people to be employed but not pay for training within a reasonable period of time then i would love to hear. There are jobs available with compoanies that bond you but it requires just as much luck and dedication to get as being employed by a company that makes you pay.
How many people who are bonded paid for their intial training? Where is the difference? Ryanair did not pay for my CPL. Also, how can the current situation be blamed on new people just entering the indusrty at the bottom, this whole Type rating scheme has been going on for years (over ten) with many companies, the good'ol days are long gone. There is a much wider area associated with this being the consitent erosion of terms and conditions which are always negotiated by senior pilots/management. Perhaps is you chaps at the top with a nimby attitude which has f*@ked it for the rest of us?
food for thought.....
i am suprised by your post, i assume from your title you are inolved with repaweb? Cant you be more constructive with your posting?
For all those waiting patience is your only option, keep on at rostering. A friend of mine did his base check the other day and there was only 3 of them as no one else could be found. You need to be flexible, LTC's are high on hours and busy training already. The LTC's where i am based are flat out and have been for as long as they can remember.
Things will never change with ryanair or any other airline as a precedence has been set already many years ago, dont knock the guys who are trying to make their way in an extremly difficult industry it is not their fault things are like this.
If anyone has a sensible suggestion(s) that allows people to be employed but not pay for training within a reasonable period of time then i would love to hear. There are jobs available with compoanies that bond you but it requires just as much luck and dedication to get as being employed by a company that makes you pay.
How many people who are bonded paid for their intial training? Where is the difference? Ryanair did not pay for my CPL. Also, how can the current situation be blamed on new people just entering the indusrty at the bottom, this whole Type rating scheme has been going on for years (over ten) with many companies, the good'ol days are long gone. There is a much wider area associated with this being the consitent erosion of terms and conditions which are always negotiated by senior pilots/management. Perhaps is you chaps at the top with a nimby attitude which has f*@ked it for the rest of us?
food for thought.....
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The industry tends to move in cycles Mixy, some analysts will quote seven, others eight yearly, peak and trough..... That said you're right there will always be a surplus of pilots and companies will take their pick as in any industry. How many accountants and tax collectors are there unemployed??? Not enough in my humble opinion but they are there trust me! Maybe there are more pilots spare because the job is still seen to be "special" by the uninitiated??? I dunno, I DO however know that we deserve no better treatment by the "authorities" than do any other professions in this world. We, after all, choose to do this job don't we? Back to the old "eyes wide shut" syndrome again. One small piece of advice for you tho' old chap - drop the "world owes me a living cos I spent 60k on myself" attitude - that is exactly why the beancounters hate pilots!!! And beanies run this airline.......... 
sorry just caught this "Gem".......
So stick it out for the one that doesn't make you pay!!!
As for Nimby - wait til YOU are one and that time WILL come if indeed Nimby is the appropriate term which, to be frank, it isn't!!!
sorry just caught this "Gem".......
There are jobs available with compoanies that bond you but it requires just as much luck and dedication to get as being employed by a company that makes you pay.
As for Nimby - wait til YOU are one and that time WILL come if indeed Nimby is the appropriate term which, to be frank, it isn't!!!
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WCF
for some people waiting is not an option after a certain period of time discrete to themselves, what is your suggestion then? You cant ride the moral high ground and you cant deny people a living. This whole paying for your training is here to stay, i dont agree with it either but until i am senior enough i cant do a thing about it other than shuffle my way through the system as best i can. Until some support and unity is shown by people already employed we cant expect new joiners to accept anything else other than what is offered.
What are your ideas to improve the current situation? You seem very agitated and have offered nothing sensible. NIMBY is a perfect term - i dont see/hear you petitioning management.
for some people waiting is not an option after a certain period of time discrete to themselves, what is your suggestion then? You cant ride the moral high ground and you cant deny people a living. This whole paying for your training is here to stay, i dont agree with it either but until i am senior enough i cant do a thing about it other than shuffle my way through the system as best i can. Until some support and unity is shown by people already employed we cant expect new joiners to accept anything else other than what is offered.
What are your ideas to improve the current situation? You seem very agitated and have offered nothing sensible. NIMBY is a perfect term - i dont see/hear you petitioning management.
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No eagerbeaver I am not agitated, simply have an opinion..... Unless you haven't read this thread from the beginning I only came inhere when it was suggested that the existing guys "petition" for the new sacrificial goats...... And that is my point, that there is nothing we can or are prepared to do about YOUR lot. You were offered something and took it - well enjoy!!!
Oh and as for "until i am senior enough i cant do a thing about it" you will NEVER be senior enough until YOU own the airline and then the game will be yours to decide the rules........
yours,
bemused but NOT agitated
Fowler
Oh and as for "until i am senior enough i cant do a thing about it" you will NEVER be senior enough until YOU own the airline and then the game will be yours to decide the rules........
yours,
bemused but NOT agitated
Fowler
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i apologise to any individual insulted.what i have a problem with is people from union level down to mr. pay for your rating,is that they are not listening to what is being said and then scratching their head when they get screwed over.
YOU ARE AT SOME STAGE IN JOINING RYANAIR GOING TO GET F**KED OVER ROYALLY.THAT IS THE SIMPLE FACT.
cadets are two a penny and when you have paid your money,they have you by the balls and start squeezing right away.you are a necessary expense.one they would love to do without.any illusions you have about grandeur of a pilots life,well forget about it.read the posts and cut the romanticising!
ryanair is s**t,it is dragging the rest of aviation into the **** and when will the union and the pilots wake up and realise what is ahead.
WAKE UP!
YOU ARE AT SOME STAGE IN JOINING RYANAIR GOING TO GET F**KED OVER ROYALLY.THAT IS THE SIMPLE FACT.
cadets are two a penny and when you have paid your money,they have you by the balls and start squeezing right away.you are a necessary expense.one they would love to do without.any illusions you have about grandeur of a pilots life,well forget about it.read the posts and cut the romanticising!
ryanair is s**t,it is dragging the rest of aviation into the **** and when will the union and the pilots wake up and realise what is ahead.
WAKE UP!
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Eagerpussy ....... for your very ESSENTIAL education:-
NIMBY - not in my back yard, ie do it anywhere else but here.
My opinion - Don't fecking do it anywhere! (DFDIA if you insist).
As for me - NUMBP would be more appropriate - Not up MY back passage...... Hehe!
Good luck!
NIMBY - not in my back yard, ie do it anywhere else but here.
My opinion - Don't fecking do it anywhere! (DFDIA if you insist).
As for me - NUMBP would be more appropriate - Not up MY back passage...... Hehe!
Good luck!