BA recruiting - DIRECT ENTRY PILOT SCHEME

[mrsmaryhinge]

Hello all,

I can't help thinking that there are a lot of negative posts on here about life at BA. Sure, BA has its problems and its not perfect, like every other company, but it's not half as bad as its being made out on here! Here is my slant on things...

BA is great if you want to come to work, do your job, and go home. You have to accept that you are a number - one of 3200 or so. Like somebody has said, you are a almost a contract pilot who comes in, does his/her job, and goes home. To me, this is great! As long as you have a life outside work, what is the problem? I have a great life away from BA so this suits me fine.

Flying with someone else every day? Again, suits me fine. Lots of new people to meet. If you are moving to London to fly with BA and do not know anyone else in this part of the world, then sure, I can understand it could be a bit lonely.

Staff travel is great. Ok, if you want to go to Orlando in the school holidays, it ain't going to happen. But with a huge route network, you just need to be a bit flexible and get to know the system. I've been away 3 times this year on long haul hols, all on standby, and been upgraded each time through a cheeky little note to the flight crew. You cannot complain about paying £100 for a club seat to Cape Town.

Cabin crew have their own issues, but as long as you have half a personality and a sense of humour, you'll have a great time on night stops. Sure, there are nights when everyone is knackered and goes to bed, but equally, I've had some of the best nights out I've ever had in Naples, Glasgow, Madrid, etc.

Skippers are a great bunch of guys. At the end of the day, they are just cadets, ex-military guys, or self-improvers, who have been in the company longer and got their command. As long as you can have a bit of banter and hold a conversation, you'll love it. There are also some real characters. I can recall doing 3 day trips with guys where I haven't stopped laughing from check-in to check-out.

With regard to the issues of seniority and time to command, I think that has been discussed to death, so people can make their own judgements. BA does have its fair share of whingers, but these tend to be people who have done nothing else. I had a different career for 5 years before joining the cadet scheme, so I realise how great this job is every day. A bit of perspective is all that is required!

Hope this helps anyone thinking of applying.

Mary

[Shuttleworth]

Mary, good posting , - looks like you recommend it...I take it you are LGW?

[Dogma]

Yeovil and Mary,

Thanks for the honest and straight forward posts.

Horses for courses, currently with have a life style with a large charter that is very rewarding, would be reluctant to give it up.

Many people chase false dawns, from sound companies. EK springs to mind.

[Bellerophon]

Tandemrotor

Perhaps you would be good enough to substantiate your claim

...on a pension, worth well in excess of £100,000...

with data to show us just how you arrive at such a figure?


You seem to have a considerable chip on your shoulder about those pilots who may be able to stay on beyond the age of 55, due to recent European legislation.

...Their command will be delayed until you decide you can fit no more of the trough in your snout...

...how it is you feel unable to survive on a pension, worth well in excess of £100,000....

...There seem to be those that, due to greed, or a history of infidelity, seem determined to keep their snouts in the trough...

Their reasons for staying on, should they be able to do so and should they choose to do so, are no business of yours, and the reasons you repeatedly impute to those who might do so are frankly offensive. It is depressing to read a BA pilot writing about his colleagues in such a manner.

Pilots are under no obligation to retire just so that you can progress to the position you obviously feel you are entitled to, any more than you should have to give way to others below you on the seniority list, or they to those outside the airline waiting to get in.

Most of this group, which you appear to so despise, will have waited over 20 years for any command and been re-deployed to ground duties twice during this time. They are only too well aware what it feels like to wait for decades in the RHS, and understand how current co-pilots will feel about a further wait for their commands.

However, this change was not brought about at the request of some senior pilots (which I would neither have sought nor supported) but is a consequence of European legislation. As such, if legislative change now means that all pilots may stay on past 55, why do you feel that only senior pilots should be obliged to retire at 55?

Why should they not have exactly the same rights and options to stay on past 55 as those more junior to them will have? Or perhaps you think any pilot currently in BA should feel obliged to retire at 55?

True, it will undoubtedly be a windfall benefit for those who are very senior the day the rule changes, but either the rule changes for all or it changes for none.

At what point in the future, in your view, would it become morally acceptable for a pilot to stay on past 55?

Let me see if I can guess!

Regards

Bellerophon

[Kurtz]

Yeovil - excellent post, being part of what was once a well motivated and happy Regional Airline (Manx / BRAL) and is now unfortunate enough to be called BA Citiexpress, may I totally agree with your assessment of the BA culture.

Whilst there ARE some decent guys around in BA, most are exactly as you describe. Our SOPs change on a seemingly daily basis, the extent of the sheer arrogance of the BA guys at all leveles is only matched by the levels of losses that their management has achieved for us. The BA mainline pilots is fairly average - by and large pretty similar to any other group of pilots, yet their misconception that they really ARE the world's best is breathtakingly misplaced. The incidents we have had........

Tandem Rotor, I have to say that was an intriguing post. Maybe it will help though, because your view of your elder and more senior colleagues is pretty much how we non-mainline guys view our secondees - now you may be able to understand a little more, and hopefully thus post a little less.

Fat chance!

[Cornflake]

I know it's been said, quoted and rewritten...... however, well said Yeovil.


I am sure, somewhere out there, there really ARE some BA pilots who might just have struggled through military flying training - but nothing like as many as they would like to think. What they might have learned, however, is that considering yourself to be special just because you have passed a Hamble or Prestwick spoonfeeding course is really not very special at all.

To those of us who have been awarded a pair of proper wings, (Gold on your sleeve being best, of course), by HM instructors whose continued employment contract does not depend on the pass ratio and profit factor etc etc, a little pat on the back - we really don't NEED to continually tell everyone how special we are; listening to and watching the standard BA product in action makes us doubly aware of it!


Fly Navy, Dig Army, Eat Crabs.......

[5415N]

we really don't NEED to continually tell everyone how special we are;

Then why do you??

[Tandemrotor]

Bellerophon

I most certainly CAN substantiate my claim that crystallised pensions can, and do, pay out well in excess of £100,000 per year. So could you if you cared to look.

For your information, I have already "progressed" as far as I am likely to, and no change in legislation is likely to affect my personal aspirations. I have NO vested interest, if that is what you were implying by your cheap comment -

"At what point in the future, in your view, would it become morally acceptable for a pilot to stay on past 55?"

I should imagine the answer would be: Everyone should expect to retire at the age stated on their contract WHEN THEY JOINED.

Is that somehow unfair?

It would seem from previous comments, that I am not the only one struck by the smug attitude of those who seek to keep their 'snouts in the trough' as long as possible, whilst having no concern whatever for new joiners. Required to join on vastly inferior pension terms to those enjoyed by the selfish, but oh so vocal MINORITY!

And you think MY comments are depressing!!

I would have thought a more united stand on ALL pension issues would be far more beneficial than that adopted by the self interested 'troughers!'

Not to mention, far more edifying for people outside BA to read!

What do you say?

Cornflake and Kurz;

I am intrigued that you are so interested in a thread entitled:

"BA recruiting - DIRECT ENTRY PILOT SCHEME"

Oh well, since BA pilots are "fairly average", and you have "watched the product in action", I know you will sail through the interview process, and find yourselves in a 747/777/320 in no time.

Enjoy

Just remember, there are some of those 'arrogant' BA pilots who don't want to see you (or anybody else) join on what is effectively a 'B' payscale!

It occurs to me that you must both be training captains on the RJ. Not that I disagree with your assessment of mainline pilots. I don't! I just can't understand how else you would be qualified to comment on their standard!

and Kurtz; "post a little less" - Why should I?

[PoodleVelour]

5415N.

Speaking as an Air Force product, I see exactly where Yeovil, Kurtz and Cornflakes are coming from. It is very tedious to listen to inaccurate BA agitprop, day after day. Wouldn't be so bad if it were half true, however, this is not a thread about the clear water of any colour between properly trained professional pilots.....and the rest. Nor about the attitude displayed by a minority of BA people.
However, .....

TandemRotor,

I agree with my colleague, a period of silence would be in order - is it only snouts of your own size which are to be enabled into the trough? (TRM - trough resource management eh?) You are loud enough when defending your own perceived 'rights', maybe you should work out this latest change has been sought by no-one in the industry, just something else imposed by our political masters - just like you lot were imposed on us here in BACX!!!!!!!
Get the drift mateyboy??

If you were really interested in "united stands" possibly you and your overpaid colleagues in BA might have been a bit more supportive of the idea of BACX joining your common seniority list.

Like many others of my background, I was not remotely interested in joining BA, but BA seemed to want my airline. Now I'm here, I feel for all my colleagues who DO want to join mainline (their choice) and I abhor the self-serving behaviour of BA who are more interested in preserving internecine scope clauses for their own narrow self interest and depth of trough rather than trying to genuinely expand opportunity for all. Now you see an internal group in potential benefit competition - well, just look at you. The only surprise is that I'm surprised. Manchester or Birmingham you greedy little tosser?

TandemRotor = typical BA line pilot =

[5415N]

PoodleVelour ,

As a BA pilot I do accept your point concerning some of my fellow pilots in BA , quite true in fact . However I thought that this thread was meant to be fairly subjective about the reasons for joining or not joining BA . Therefore when I see

To those of us who have been awarded a pair of proper wings, (Gold on your sleeve being best, of course), by HM instructors whose continued employment contract does not depend on the pass ratio and profit factor etc etc, a little pat on the back

I do get a little annoyed . Is this an insult against any non military pilot who has worked his way up the hard way , been tested and passed by non military instructors etc to find himself working for BA ? Should he feel "not worthy " because he has never had the pleasure of a military instructors . I fly with many people , of both types and there are good , bad and indifferent on both sides .

Personnally I just do it the old way and treat each pilot as he comes and how he does the job , without a monkeys about his background .

Old Fashioned I know , but hey it works


regards

[PoodleVelour]

And I think you have every right to be annoyed if you fall into the group which is inferred to be inferior by virtue of having no military flight training.
Quite understandable.

However, I think this sub-point, as first mentioned by Yeovil and expanded by Cornflake and Kurtz is one which is seldom made in comparison to the attitude shown by a large number (albeit a smaller proportion of the total) of BA pilots who genuinely believe that the BA product is the best in the world and that all other crew members need educating about this.

The number of times this comes over as compared to the mil / civ training variables and qualities is astronomical, and more than a little irritating - particularly, when as is often the case, the loudest noise is made by 'sounding brass' without the skills to back up the headlines.

Glad to see you're old fashioned too, if only all your colleagues behaved in a similar fashion.

[Hand Solo]

God almighty what a pointless pi55ing contest this thread has turned into. Military vs civvie? What a load of arse! I've flown with ex-mil skippers who fly flawlessly and some who can't hold straight and level in a fly-by-wire aircraft with a flight path vector to aid them. Broadly similar for the civvies.

Kurtz

Whilst there ARE some decent guys around in BA, most are exactly as you describe. Our SOPs change on a seemingly daily basis, the extent of the sheer arrogance of the BA guys at all leveles is only matched by the levels of losses that their management has achieved for us

So, your experience is based upon two, maybe three BA managers, and around 80 secondees, which make up about 2.5% of the BA pilot workforce, yet somehow you think you're qualified to comment on the workforce as a whole? Do me a favour. As for the 'incidents we've had', do I correctly recall a thread on here over a year ago regarding a series of tailstrikes on the RJ, all of which were flown by BACX crews? Don't go throwing stones when you live in a very fragile glass house. And just to remind you (and other readers) on the nature of the secondments, the regional bases, routes, aircraft and jobs were BA's, not BACX's. You're lucky to have any of those positions because they should all still be in BA (where they made a profit). If you weren't gifted those positions there'd be 120 of you on the dole right now.

Yeovil

How long have you been in because you seem to have had a run of bad luck.

“One upmanship” is the name of the game. A lot of the Captains take pleasure in pointing out errors or omissions. The atmosphere on the flight deck is rarely pleasant. I’m afraid just too many of the guys are “spoon fed” from uni – sponsored and sadly now cynical about BA. They are frequently pompous, patronising and have an unrealistic view of their own abilities. Pilots here, can be rude to despatchers, colleagues and cabin crew in a way I haven’t witnessed elsewhere. They have no idea what it’s like to work for anyone other than BA.

Can't say I've experienced much one-upmanship apart from a handful of eccentric Captains. Indeed rather than being the "spoon-fed" the worst cases are from the ex-mil types who've spent 10+ years in a jumbo before coming over for a late short haul command. Not to say they're all like that, many of them are excellent. Nor have I ever witnessed a Captain being rude to despatchers, colleagues or cabin crew Curt under pressure perhaps, rude no.

Finally I trust you follow in the fine tradition of the ex-Navy flyers in BA whom I've generally found a pleasure to fly with, but I can tell you that nothing seems to pi55 a civvie Captain off than a co-pilot who insists on telling him how much better the forces and their previous command were.

Poodle:

Remember, our jobs, our bases. The scope clause keeps your grubby little hands off any more of them. We offered you mainline seniority for the RJ pilots, you turned it down.

[Pontiuspilot]

Hand Solo

I think it has said before, but one can always rely on Mr. Solo to drag down, obfuscate and distort the facts sufficiently to make one anticipate euthanasia with pleasure.

You really should be a politician Hand old chap, because your ability to repeat enough erroneous and distorted facts until some of them are finally believed is admirable (objectively anyway). You even convince yourself. You are consistently unable to appreciate any data supporting a conclusion you dislike, and entirely incapable of seeing the veritas in anything which might disadvantage yourself or your cosy clicque of blinkered, self-serving, arrogant, pompous mainliners.

To be frank, it is the attitude of you and yours which makes BA the subject of crewroom incredulity around the world. I don't expect you to change your views, I just thank God almighty I left BACX when I did, and no longer have to listen to mainline cabin or flight deck crew whinging and wittering about money, contracts, overtime (can we taxy in more slowly please....) I never believed THAT one till we were bought by BA and had to work with your colleagues.....yes, yes, yes, I KNOW people are lining up to try and get into BA...their choice. For every one Yeovil etc on here, I wonder how many people there are out there whose dislike for their job is only exceeded by their dislike and outright contempt for the likes of you!

[Yeovil]

Hi Hand,
Unlike others here, I rarely disagee with your posts - and think you offer a fair and reasonable view on many topics.
However - this time if you think BA comprises of a fabulous happy nice bunch of guys - and well worth joining as a a DEP - then you are totally mistaken.!!!

I really hadn’t intended to cause the sort of mil versus cadet conflict that followed my post. I think it was the posts that followed mine were inflammatory and disagreeable.

I must say - I'm glad you posted those few lines again (in your last post ) Starting; One upmanship is the name of the game ........... Because that really sums BA up.

I guess I was just trying to describe the atmosphere at BA for those who might join from other pastures. I don’t think it’s a happy outfit (well not least the Airbus fleet!). I was trying to be as accurate as I could.


Reading my post again, I can’t see anywhere, that I said “ex mil formed better crews than ex BA sponsored cadets”. In fact some of the most “able” and “respected“ of the Airbus training dept’s are ex cadets – ability and technique far exceed any of the ex Navy/Air Force/Army guys. I must also say that the dozen or so biggest and most obnoxious pratts are all ex mil! ( I perhaps omitted this from my post – and apologise for that!)



I had proposed though, that many of the unhappy guys I fly with were BA sponsored (typically between six and twenty five years ago). They seem clueless about the real world and have a downright nasty view of the outside world. They are the type of guys who might miss a couple of radio calls from ATC (we have all done it!) and never apologise!

For some reason, they think they are better than pilots who work at My Travel Ryanair Citiexpress etc . I haven’t figured out why.



Hand; if you enjoy flying with guys on the Airbus fleet – that’s great. (I must try changing my selection of lines because I’m ending up with trips with some complete idiots!). I’m frequently finding lots of issues to disagree over. (fuel being one !). I'll say it again - standards here are definitely poorer than elsewhere. I've witnessed more unsafe events at BA than at any other employer.

So to sum up – if you are thinking of joining please take note – there is a lengthy (15 year??) wait for command ( stated elsewhere !) and in my opinion it’s not generally recognised as a happy place to work. (if Hand is an ex Cadet then don’t forget he has nothing else to compare it too!)

[Notso Fantastic]

This is a very weird thread. Yeovil, I don't think you know what you are talking about. Good luck in your new career with whoever is next!

[NigelOnDraft]

I’m frequently finding lots of issues to disagree over. (fuel being one !).

Interesting. In my 7-8 years in BA, I can't say I've ever "disagreed" with either my P1 or P2 over fuel. We might have a (usually slight) difference of opinion at first, but a short discussion usually results a quantity which both of us are happy with (and usually will be the higher of the first 2 ideas!)...

Which other areas do you "disagree" with your colleague on ??

NoD

[Shuttleworth]

Someone said - "It's a weird thread "... well I agree - and with so many differing opionions of the merits or otherwise of joining as a DEP then it'll be easy for candidates to draw their own conclusions from the conflicts described above.

[Super Stall]

Any candidate who uses any of the above to 'draw their own conclusions' needs their head seeing to.

I have honestly never read so much cr@p in all my life!

Do your own research, but please do not base your decision on the anonymous postings from the likes of Yoevil (who has the sum total of two posts to his name), and 2 or 3 other contributors. Even if they do work for the company they are simply not representative of the other 3250 pilots who work for BA, many of whom joined as DEP's from charters, turboprop's etc. and are very happy.

Jeez, all we need now is a discussion about the merits or otherwise of the 'monitiored approach', and this thread will be complete.

[Yeovil]

Notso fantastic; you said …I don't think you know what you are talking about….
Well– can you be more specific? What is it you disagree with ?

Super stall – yeah I’m new here, but they are still valid opinions of life as a DEP in BA . I can’t see what it is you don’t like ? Can you tell us ?

I didn’t say I wasn’t happy – just that when you factor in life in the South East, the joy of LHR and then compare it to other employers, BA isn’t something I’d recommend!
I just wouldn’t like to see guys draw conclusions from people posting stuff on pprune who have not actually flown for other airlines. Simple isn’t it?

Please tell me why I shouldn’t state that?
Your post too is anonymous isn’t it?

[WhoopWhoop Whoops]

Can we please get back to the things that matter to prospective pilots interested in joining BA.

Salary and promotion prospects I dealt with earlier , people can believe it or not but it was fact.

Perhaps someone could enlighten us about the new pension scheme for new entrants now that NAPS has been scrapped.

What is a BA pilot likely to retire on in the future on this contributary only scheme? It does not seem good to me.

I think this would be of more interest to them than the rubbish that is being put on this thread at the moment alas.