BA recruiting - DIRECT ENTRY PILOT SCHEME
Controversial, moi?
Yes, the sentence has to be read completely.
Sorry it wasn't clear probably my lack of good punctuation and grammar!
especially between pilots and a notable proportion of cabin crew amongst others
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Out of the loop
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Time to command in BA is as long as a long piece of string, very long.
With the change in the retirement age post 2006 it will add 5 to 10 years to the 10 to 15 it is now.
No fancy pension any more and no big starting salary.
No new aircraft deliveries in sight just cutbacks.
They are just covering themselves by starting the pool again just in case they dont pull out of gatwick.
The Prince of Darkness is just covering his rear BEWARE.
EasyJet seems a better bet.
With the change in the retirement age post 2006 it will add 5 to 10 years to the 10 to 15 it is now.
No fancy pension any more and no big starting salary.
No new aircraft deliveries in sight just cutbacks.
They are just covering themselves by starting the pool again just in case they dont pull out of gatwick.
The Prince of Darkness is just covering his rear BEWARE.
EasyJet seems a better bet.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 865
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WhoopWhoop Whoops,
You may be right with the first part of your post, but
???????? I think your location is correct - you really are out of the loop!
Sorry, yes there may be quick time to command with easy, but nothing else is better !
You may be right with the first part of your post, but
EasyJet seems a better bet.
Sorry, yes there may be quick time to command with easy, but nothing else is better !
Last edited by expedite_climb; 3rd May 2004 at 14:21.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: LHR
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WhoopWhoop Whoops
Quote
"With the change in the retirement age post 2006 it will add 5 to 10 years to the 10 to 15 it is now."
This is state pension related ( or Correct me ) ,company pensions FSS or MPS pay out on agreed dates and thats not affected.
expedite_climb
I wouldnt worry too much about BA pilots joining Easy,things are too good for that
Quote
"With the change in the retirement age post 2006 it will add 5 to 10 years to the 10 to 15 it is now."
This is state pension related ( or Correct me ) ,company pensions FSS or MPS pay out on agreed dates and thats not affected.
expedite_climb
I wouldnt worry too much about BA pilots joining Easy,things are too good for that
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Out of the loop
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes I am out of the loop with EasyJet
But I am in the loop with BA
I did 24 years to command and I started from school!! Thats why I am still here..
Our current retirement age of 55 will change after 2006 by law so the old timers like me who were due to retire 2007+ will probably stay.
The rewards were always at the end of the rainbow in BA, you have to be young at the start.
BA has in the last 10 years taken in large numbers 1000 + of young cadets under 30 some at 23, the early ones were lucky and got quick commands after me. But there are a lot of older cadets and later direct entry pilots that do not have the seniority relative to age. They at best can expect to be junior captains on shorthaul or permanent longhaul copilots.
In short if you are over 30 forget BA.
To add to this you have to say that BA is in trouble our own Chief Exec has said so. Costs have to be cut etc. I feel in a few years Easyjet will have forced us to contract shorthaul, we will never be able to compete with our massive overheads which are not related to or under the control of the pilots.
We have dumped the final salary pension scheme for new pilots, and anybody joining now will be the first of the low contributary style pension group.
True the salary at the top is the best in the uk industry with GROSS salary incl everything BEFORE DEDUCTIONS of about 11000 to 12000 a month. BUT THATS THE TOP AND AS GOOD AS IT GETS.
We have a longevity pay structure so you have to have done more than 25 years AND be on a senior captain on the 777 or 747 to get that sort of money.
Most DEPS and older cadets will NEVER GET THERE!!!!!!!
The copilots and captains on shorthaul get similar money to every other operator like Easy Jet.
Hence my warning BEWARE of Pots of Gold you cannot reach. It is not the nirvana that everyone thinks.
But I am in the loop with BA
I did 24 years to command and I started from school!! Thats why I am still here..
Our current retirement age of 55 will change after 2006 by law so the old timers like me who were due to retire 2007+ will probably stay.
The rewards were always at the end of the rainbow in BA, you have to be young at the start.
BA has in the last 10 years taken in large numbers 1000 + of young cadets under 30 some at 23, the early ones were lucky and got quick commands after me. But there are a lot of older cadets and later direct entry pilots that do not have the seniority relative to age. They at best can expect to be junior captains on shorthaul or permanent longhaul copilots.
In short if you are over 30 forget BA.
To add to this you have to say that BA is in trouble our own Chief Exec has said so. Costs have to be cut etc. I feel in a few years Easyjet will have forced us to contract shorthaul, we will never be able to compete with our massive overheads which are not related to or under the control of the pilots.
We have dumped the final salary pension scheme for new pilots, and anybody joining now will be the first of the low contributary style pension group.
True the salary at the top is the best in the uk industry with GROSS salary incl everything BEFORE DEDUCTIONS of about 11000 to 12000 a month. BUT THATS THE TOP AND AS GOOD AS IT GETS.
We have a longevity pay structure so you have to have done more than 25 years AND be on a senior captain on the 777 or 747 to get that sort of money.
Most DEPS and older cadets will NEVER GET THERE!!!!!!!
The copilots and captains on shorthaul get similar money to every other operator like Easy Jet.
Hence my warning BEWARE of Pots of Gold you cannot reach. It is not the nirvana that everyone thinks.
Last edited by WhoopWhoop Whoops; 3rd May 2004 at 18:25.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: LHR
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WhoopWhoop Whoops
Please let me know what you mean regards 2006,i have no information that legislates company schemes at 2006,i thought your current agreements stands and i am genuinely surprised to hear otherwise.
What does surprise me considering the world climate is BA hasn't approached BALPA with a new contract arrangement for its flight crews along the lines of the cabin crew arrangement,i know you are having a sharp intake of breath here but if they offered the current crews 10% extra to agree a new contract for starters along the lines of EOG it would pay for itself in the future - i cant believe it hasn't been suggested.
I guess what a lot of us here are asking is just what is a " Lot of money " in relation to the job > shoot me down here but i am amazed and somewhat shocked to learn some of the crews are getting 150K - that's serious money
Please let me know what you mean regards 2006,i have no information that legislates company schemes at 2006,i thought your current agreements stands and i am genuinely surprised to hear otherwise.
What does surprise me considering the world climate is BA hasn't approached BALPA with a new contract arrangement for its flight crews along the lines of the cabin crew arrangement,i know you are having a sharp intake of breath here but if they offered the current crews 10% extra to agree a new contract for starters along the lines of EOG it would pay for itself in the future - i cant believe it hasn't been suggested.
I guess what a lot of us here are asking is just what is a " Lot of money " in relation to the job > shoot me down here but i am amazed and somewhat shocked to learn some of the crews are getting 150K - that's serious money
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: on the golf course (Covid permitting)
Posts: 2,131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well you
In 2006, European legislation will come into force that prevents discrimination on age. My understanding is that companies will not be able to enforce compulsory retirement on age alone - ie if as a pilot you are fit enough to pass a class 1 medical and competent enough to pass simulator checks etc, you cannot be forced to retire.
In BA (where pilots have a compulsory 55 retirement age) this may well see that restriction having to be removed, and flight crew being able to continue on beyond 55 to who knows what age. It is likely that a sizeable proportion of pilots would choose to extend beyond 55. For arguments sake if 50% go on to 60, then on average it will take 2.5 yrs longer for DEP's to get command. If the average pilots' length of service increases from 30 to 33 years, then is will take about 15-16 years to achieve a command, hence if you sign on as a 38 yr old ex RAF guy, you may not achieve a command until mid 50's.
In 2006, European legislation will come into force that prevents discrimination on age. My understanding is that companies will not be able to enforce compulsory retirement on age alone - ie if as a pilot you are fit enough to pass a class 1 medical and competent enough to pass simulator checks etc, you cannot be forced to retire.
In BA (where pilots have a compulsory 55 retirement age) this may well see that restriction having to be removed, and flight crew being able to continue on beyond 55 to who knows what age. It is likely that a sizeable proportion of pilots would choose to extend beyond 55. For arguments sake if 50% go on to 60, then on average it will take 2.5 yrs longer for DEP's to get command. If the average pilots' length of service increases from 30 to 33 years, then is will take about 15-16 years to achieve a command, hence if you sign on as a 38 yr old ex RAF guy, you may not achieve a command until mid 50's.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Out of the loop
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I see you have an answer to the retirement question during 2006 it will be illegal to force anyone to retire possibly up to 75.
To a pilot this means a maximum of 65 ie the licence limit.
This will raise the time to command.
The longevity pay scale system in BA is often not appreciated. pay point 1 to pay point 28. 1 point rise per year of service starting from when you join.
This is unaffected by promotion to command you just change scales at your current point.
In BA we have a pay point 1 for a 777 747 capt. If the black death hit the pilot workforce you would get a 777 747 command immediately but you would have to wait 28 years to get 144000 incl allowances gross etc.
Their is a big difference in pay over those 28 years never mind the promotion aspects.
This means the big money only comes at the very end of your career and only a few guys get it for a short time and then retire.
Its all smoke and mirrors.
The benefit was that your pension was calculated on the best 2 years earnings hence it gave a big uplift to the pension before you left.
However that is not available to new pilots who will not have access to that scheme. Their pension will be calculated on what they put in over their whole period with BA it will be substantially less for the reasons I have just given.
And you still have to put the years in.
Potential joiners take note.
To a pilot this means a maximum of 65 ie the licence limit.
This will raise the time to command.
The longevity pay scale system in BA is often not appreciated. pay point 1 to pay point 28. 1 point rise per year of service starting from when you join.
This is unaffected by promotion to command you just change scales at your current point.
In BA we have a pay point 1 for a 777 747 capt. If the black death hit the pilot workforce you would get a 777 747 command immediately but you would have to wait 28 years to get 144000 incl allowances gross etc.
Their is a big difference in pay over those 28 years never mind the promotion aspects.
This means the big money only comes at the very end of your career and only a few guys get it for a short time and then retire.
Its all smoke and mirrors.
The benefit was that your pension was calculated on the best 2 years earnings hence it gave a big uplift to the pension before you left.
However that is not available to new pilots who will not have access to that scheme. Their pension will be calculated on what they put in over their whole period with BA it will be substantially less for the reasons I have just given.
And you still have to put the years in.
Potential joiners take note.
Last edited by WhoopWhoop Whoops; 3rd May 2004 at 18:54.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Oxford
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whoopwhoop.
What are you talking about? The BA pay scale does not go from 1 to 28 as every REAL BA pilot will know.
The pension issue is not yet cut and dried, BALPA have yet to issue a ballot but have promised that the members will be consulted.
BA SH out earn Easy by some way. I'm BA LHS and my brother is Easy LHS. Whilst I never take home less than £5k a month (much more with draft) his take home is nearer £4k. We both work hard, as do all pilots these days. I certainly feel less tired than when on the -400.
The starting pay is much better now for new joiners than it has ever been. The basic has been increased and the variable pay is no longer tied to seniority as much as it used to be.
However I agree that the time to command is going to be very long. Assuming a retirement age of 55 nobody who joins BA who is older than 30 will ever get a LH command. The wait for a SH command will be AT LEAST 15 years. (Unless LGW comes good with the 'bus expansion). But that makes perfect sense, if the average carrer is 30 years and 50% of crew are Captains then on average it will take 15 years to get a command. If the CRA goes up then it could be much longer. But things always change in this biz.
What are you talking about? The BA pay scale does not go from 1 to 28 as every REAL BA pilot will know.
The pension issue is not yet cut and dried, BALPA have yet to issue a ballot but have promised that the members will be consulted.
BA SH out earn Easy by some way. I'm BA LHS and my brother is Easy LHS. Whilst I never take home less than £5k a month (much more with draft) his take home is nearer £4k. We both work hard, as do all pilots these days. I certainly feel less tired than when on the -400.
The starting pay is much better now for new joiners than it has ever been. The basic has been increased and the variable pay is no longer tied to seniority as much as it used to be.
However I agree that the time to command is going to be very long. Assuming a retirement age of 55 nobody who joins BA who is older than 30 will ever get a LH command. The wait for a SH command will be AT LEAST 15 years. (Unless LGW comes good with the 'bus expansion). But that makes perfect sense, if the average carrer is 30 years and 50% of crew are Captains then on average it will take 15 years to get a command. If the CRA goes up then it could be much longer. But things always change in this biz.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The Twilight Zone near 30W
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WhoopWhoop Whoops.
Emphasis on the last word I think!
I'd me most gratified if I ever made it to the dizzy heights of Pay Point 28. Having said that, I'm only planning to stay for 31 years.
Emphasis on the last word I think!
I'd me most gratified if I ever made it to the dizzy heights of Pay Point 28. Having said that, I'm only planning to stay for 31 years.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Out of the loop
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OK guys I havn't checked the number of steps in the scale recently so perhaps someone can advise me . I simply don't need to at the top.
It used to be 28 but I agree it might be as low as 25 now!!!!!!
Talking about take home pay is a waste of space everybody's deductions tax etc are different.
I am right in my figures and that much I know. The pension scene is a dead duck BALPA has done nothing about it and I do not see the BA pilots going on strike for the new hires to get a special deal,relative to other BA staff.
My group didn't pull the plug when NAPS the replacement for APS came along with its worse benefits and I do not see the current pilots doing the same for some new guys so they can get a better deal now that NAPS has been given the chop.
Each generation has looked after itself for one reason or another.
I wish people would say it as it is. and not try to slant the facts.
It used to be 28 but I agree it might be as low as 25 now!!!!!!
Talking about take home pay is a waste of space everybody's deductions tax etc are different.
I am right in my figures and that much I know. The pension scene is a dead duck BALPA has done nothing about it and I do not see the BA pilots going on strike for the new hires to get a special deal,relative to other BA staff.
My group didn't pull the plug when NAPS the replacement for APS came along with its worse benefits and I do not see the current pilots doing the same for some new guys so they can get a better deal now that NAPS has been given the chop.
Each generation has looked after itself for one reason or another.
I wish people would say it as it is. and not try to slant the facts.
Last edited by WhoopWhoop Whoops; 6th May 2004 at 22:24.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Nova
Posts: 1,242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whoopwhoop Whoops
You seem very certain that 2006 will bring continued jam for you! Maybe it will, and maybe it won't (there are frequently exemptions from EU law for the transport industry) Let us see where we stand in 2006 eh!
Personally, if it comes to a vote, I will vote NO. (even though I am already a shorthaul captain!)
People like you are far too smug for my liking, and deserve whatever it was you signed up for. Isn't it enough?
Why do you think you deserve more? YOUR seniors retired at 50 didn't they?
Got a crystallised pension?
You seem very certain that 2006 will bring continued jam for you! Maybe it will, and maybe it won't (there are frequently exemptions from EU law for the transport industry) Let us see where we stand in 2006 eh!
Personally, if it comes to a vote, I will vote NO. (even though I am already a shorthaul captain!)
People like you are far too smug for my liking, and deserve whatever it was you signed up for. Isn't it enough?
Why do you think you deserve more? YOUR seniors retired at 50 didn't they?
Got a crystallised pension?
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 865
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Guys,
Surely if the COMPULSORY retirement age at 55 is lifted, BA must still honour your terms, allowing you to retire at 55. I'd say a large proportion of the pilots would be better off taking the pension and then getting jobs elsewhere too, like many have in the past? Don't you think?
Of course if you were a late joiner and havent made the dizzy heights of PP 28 or 25 or whatever then that may not apply !
Surely if the COMPULSORY retirement age at 55 is lifted, BA must still honour your terms, allowing you to retire at 55. I'd say a large proportion of the pilots would be better off taking the pension and then getting jobs elsewhere too, like many have in the past? Don't you think?
Of course if you were a late joiner and havent made the dizzy heights of PP 28 or 25 or whatever then that may not apply !
Controversial, moi?
WWW
Something doesn't ring true with you, everybody knows how many steps there are in the pay scale and and you still have it wrong...the number is neither 25 nor 28.
Something doesn't ring true with you, everybody knows how many steps there are in the pay scale and and you still have it wrong...the number is neither 25 nor 28.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"You will need a first class flying record and a good level of physical fitness.
Demonstrable evidence of leadership, intellect, determination, reliability, high personal standards, motivation, flexibility, well developed customer service skills and teamwork."
I agree with skyclamp, what a load of bull ! typical ba crap !
"do you have a rating ?"
"can you fly an aeroplane ?"
"are you capable of having a beer with the lads ?"
would be more appropriate,
why do they always go down this silly road? they are wanting fully type rated pilots !!
"let's all sit in a room and build something 'purposeful' with lego !!"
Demonstrable evidence of leadership, intellect, determination, reliability, high personal standards, motivation, flexibility, well developed customer service skills and teamwork."
I agree with skyclamp, what a load of bull ! typical ba crap !
"do you have a rating ?"
"can you fly an aeroplane ?"
"are you capable of having a beer with the lads ?"
would be more appropriate,
why do they always go down this silly road? they are wanting fully type rated pilots !!
"let's all sit in a room and build something 'purposeful' with lego !!"
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
m.mouse
it is a fact that some of our senior long haul chaps are so far removed from anything that goes on below them ( and, for that matter, don't care ), that it could be that some do not know all details about pay points etc. They're more than happy where they are, and don't give a t--- about anyone else. ( why should they ? ).
toon.
So don't apply then. We'll manage without you.
it is a fact that some of our senior long haul chaps are so far removed from anything that goes on below them ( and, for that matter, don't care ), that it could be that some do not know all details about pay points etc. They're more than happy where they are, and don't give a t--- about anyone else. ( why should they ? ).
toon.
So don't apply then. We'll manage without you.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
cib, i,m to old to apply and never have, if i had my time again i may well have gone the ba route. my point was not to criticise anything to do with pay stuctures, working hours etc etc but to highlight that when you do go for an interview you are 'scored' on everything from how you stand to how you wipe your bottom ! by people who are not qualified in any way to judge you on how you make your professional decisions. Pointless nonsense !