People Leaving Ezy For Greener Pastures.
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CaptainProp - you say you are 'knackered'. Are you more knackered now than under the 6/3 pattern, or, as in my case, is it too early to judge?
It's very difficult to criticize those who are working hard - and let's at least agree on that - to improve our terms and conditions, those who are doing a job many, including I, wouldn't be prepared to undertake. But it shouldn't exonerate them, in terms of their performance, from critical analysis; afterall, they have agreed to take on this responsibility, asked members to vote for them, and vowed to seek results.
There is little point arguing whether 5/2,5/4 is the way forward. The CC insisted it was the best they could negotiate. Well, perhaps. There is no evidence or reason to support an argument for or against this claim. But it is what we have. So, would 90% BALPA membership have ensured a better result?
Shamefully I'm working from memory; the exact figures not being to hand, but in fact not necessary to make the point. Let's assume a BALPA membership of, what? 66%. Two thirds. Reasonable? Maybe substantially less. However, let's go with that figure. That's around 800 pilots in a workforce of some 1200. The number of members that actually voted was around 75%. 600 pilots. The number voting yes was something like 65%. That's 390 pilots out of 1200 which approved the offer presented by the company. Precision isn't necessary to make the point that the 'yes' vote was a minority one in terms of total pilot numbers.
The first question is why so many members abstained? The second is why were we asked to vote on an entire package which included the reduced holiday entitlement, the confusing days off request system, and the expectation to work into a day off without compensation? The vote should have been to decide the new roster pattern and nothing more. Perhaps this explains the abstinence.
Again there is no evidence or reasoning to support an argument that higher BALPA membership would have rejected the proposal. We simply do not know how the currently disenfranchised would have voted. Members were presented with a proposal on which we were asked to vote. It is the proposal which offers itself for criticism, a final proposal that could not have been influenced by BALPA membership.
The CC stated, or at least individuals stated, that it was the best they could achieve. It was, no doubt, the result of supreme effort on the part of many who gave their time - and health - for our good. But it is on the result of these efforts that we are asked to vote. The quality of these results shapes our opinion of the union, and it is these opinions which determine membership choices.
The CC comprises pilots, not industrial relations experts. It is the union's responsibility to provide the skills, experience, and support to bolster the efforts of our representatives. Perhaps this is the the area to scrutinize if we are to swell the membership ranks.
FQ
It's very difficult to criticize those who are working hard - and let's at least agree on that - to improve our terms and conditions, those who are doing a job many, including I, wouldn't be prepared to undertake. But it shouldn't exonerate them, in terms of their performance, from critical analysis; afterall, they have agreed to take on this responsibility, asked members to vote for them, and vowed to seek results.
There is little point arguing whether 5/2,5/4 is the way forward. The CC insisted it was the best they could negotiate. Well, perhaps. There is no evidence or reason to support an argument for or against this claim. But it is what we have. So, would 90% BALPA membership have ensured a better result?
Shamefully I'm working from memory; the exact figures not being to hand, but in fact not necessary to make the point. Let's assume a BALPA membership of, what? 66%. Two thirds. Reasonable? Maybe substantially less. However, let's go with that figure. That's around 800 pilots in a workforce of some 1200. The number of members that actually voted was around 75%. 600 pilots. The number voting yes was something like 65%. That's 390 pilots out of 1200 which approved the offer presented by the company. Precision isn't necessary to make the point that the 'yes' vote was a minority one in terms of total pilot numbers.
The first question is why so many members abstained? The second is why were we asked to vote on an entire package which included the reduced holiday entitlement, the confusing days off request system, and the expectation to work into a day off without compensation? The vote should have been to decide the new roster pattern and nothing more. Perhaps this explains the abstinence.
Again there is no evidence or reasoning to support an argument that higher BALPA membership would have rejected the proposal. We simply do not know how the currently disenfranchised would have voted. Members were presented with a proposal on which we were asked to vote. It is the proposal which offers itself for criticism, a final proposal that could not have been influenced by BALPA membership.
The CC stated, or at least individuals stated, that it was the best they could achieve. It was, no doubt, the result of supreme effort on the part of many who gave their time - and health - for our good. But it is on the result of these efforts that we are asked to vote. The quality of these results shapes our opinion of the union, and it is these opinions which determine membership choices.
The CC comprises pilots, not industrial relations experts. It is the union's responsibility to provide the skills, experience, and support to bolster the efforts of our representatives. Perhaps this is the the area to scrutinize if we are to swell the membership ranks.
FQ
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sorry we've been through this old chesnut several times.
If you're not in you can't vote, if you're in and you don't vote then accept it.
I'm in and I voted NO. I thought a majority of the people were going to vote No too, but the BALPA CC did a whirlwind tour and said in no uncertain terms that if it wasn't accepted we could expect far far worse.
it was the 'devil you know' clause that brought in the 5/2 - 5/4. nothing else.
If you're not in you can't vote, if you're in and you don't vote then accept it.
I'm in and I voted NO. I thought a majority of the people were going to vote No too, but the BALPA CC did a whirlwind tour and said in no uncertain terms that if it wasn't accepted we could expect far far worse.
it was the 'devil you know' clause that brought in the 5/2 - 5/4. nothing else.
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Flying scotsman - I think you are 100 % right in what you say!
FQ,
Yes, I feel much more tired now... I know how I feel, you donīt!
If I compare my schedules from the "6/3" with the ones I have now I can see a big difference too!! Or how about 100 block hours on my June roster, 88 block hours on my July roster, and that despite having leave!!
I think you are right, we would not know what would have happened if we would have been in the position to turn this deal down...BUT, as you correctly point out, they took away control of leave for us, to "replace" them with GDO`s!! Why?? Why? Why??
Delayed days of??? Why?? Why?? THIS, should have been turned down right there and then!! With higher BALPA representation this would have been possible!! You turn it down and check your opponents next move!! Remember, itīs all a bit like a game where the comp does everyting to find your weakness...I donīt even have to point out our weakness, we all know what is was/is....66 % instead of 90+ %..... The next move from the company would then, as you pointed out, perhaps have been to say "Ok, we cannot have 6/3 (because of fatigue, CAA blablabla) so now by turning down our "offer" you have given us no choice but to go random rostering, or 5/2, or 7/0
!!!
Then what FQ?? Thatīs right....with 90+ % of the crew in BALPA, BALPA (we) would have been in the position to say "STOP!!"
Am I wrong here?? Missing something??
Oh, by the way, Iīm sure this was the best deal that our reps could achieve....BUT only because of?? Correct!! 66 %!!!
/CP
FQ,
Yes, I feel much more tired now... I know how I feel, you donīt!
If I compare my schedules from the "6/3" with the ones I have now I can see a big difference too!! Or how about 100 block hours on my June roster, 88 block hours on my July roster, and that despite having leave!!
I think you are right, we would not know what would have happened if we would have been in the position to turn this deal down...BUT, as you correctly point out, they took away control of leave for us, to "replace" them with GDO`s!! Why?? Why? Why??
Delayed days of??? Why?? Why?? THIS, should have been turned down right there and then!! With higher BALPA representation this would have been possible!! You turn it down and check your opponents next move!! Remember, itīs all a bit like a game where the comp does everyting to find your weakness...I donīt even have to point out our weakness, we all know what is was/is....66 % instead of 90+ %..... The next move from the company would then, as you pointed out, perhaps have been to say "Ok, we cannot have 6/3 (because of fatigue, CAA blablabla) so now by turning down our "offer" you have given us no choice but to go random rostering, or 5/2, or 7/0
!!! Then what FQ?? Thatīs right....with 90+ % of the crew in BALPA, BALPA (we) would have been in the position to say "STOP!!"
Am I wrong here?? Missing something??
Oh, by the way, Iīm sure this was the best deal that our reps could achieve....BUT only because of?? Correct!! 66 %!!!
/CP
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CaptainProp
My question about your level of tiredness was just that: a question. I was interested to know if you felt more tired than before. Don't be so combatitive!
Yes you are right: we should turn down offers which are not good enough. But we didn't; it was accepted. My point was that a substantial number of BALPA members did not vote. I reasoned that it could have been disappointment with the offer. Who knows?
But the meat of my argument was that whether we have 5 members of BALPA or 1200 members, the same democratic process exists. We can accept or reject only that which is presented to us. On the last occasion we accepted it (that is to say a majority voted 'yes'). We simply cannot say whether an increased membership would have voted differently. And what reasoning exists to argue that increased membership would have improved the negociating skills of those representing us? The only additional weopon the CC would be armed with is industrial action. Whether our management would have feared this weopon is currently unknown; whether it would be used is also currenlty unknown.
For what it's worth, I signed up to give increased membeship a chance. But you can see from my argument why many would not.
FQ
My question about your level of tiredness was just that: a question. I was interested to know if you felt more tired than before. Don't be so combatitive!
Yes you are right: we should turn down offers which are not good enough. But we didn't; it was accepted. My point was that a substantial number of BALPA members did not vote. I reasoned that it could have been disappointment with the offer. Who knows?
But the meat of my argument was that whether we have 5 members of BALPA or 1200 members, the same democratic process exists. We can accept or reject only that which is presented to us. On the last occasion we accepted it (that is to say a majority voted 'yes'). We simply cannot say whether an increased membership would have voted differently. And what reasoning exists to argue that increased membership would have improved the negociating skills of those representing us? The only additional weopon the CC would be armed with is industrial action. Whether our management would have feared this weopon is currently unknown; whether it would be used is also currenlty unknown.
For what it's worth, I signed up to give increased membeship a chance. But you can see from my argument why many would not.
FQ
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FQ - Not my intention to sound combatitive...
With more people joined in it would become very difficult for the company to talk people in to voting yes for something that is clearly not in our best interest! I truely think that the company gave the trial bases a few months of easy rostering just to buy them over..and they never took ful use of the variuos "tools" that they have built in to the 5/2/5/4 deal. I am truely amazed to hear some, quite a few, of our pilots looking at their rosters saying "Ohh, my god!! Whatīs this?? Can they do that?? I thought... " DID THEY NOT READ ALL THE INFORMATION PROVIDED BEFORE VOTING??????
They voted for something that would have a great impact on their life, WITHOUT KNOWING WHAT THEY VOTED FOR/AGAINST??? This, I find very strange..... Or, did they read it and said "Well, itīs just in there, donīt think the comp will use it..." 
When I first read ALL the information I went "Hey, what the h_ll is this???" Then I sat down and made a "worst case" roster that covered a month....just played around with all the "tools" the company were putting in to the deal...then there was the loss of leave... ANYONE taking the time to sit down and REALLY look at ALL the aspects of this WOULD/SHOULD turn it down!!
I find it very dissrespectful to fellow collegues to vote without knowing what you vote for!! This regardless of you voting for or against......
/CP
With more people joined in it would become very difficult for the company to talk people in to voting yes for something that is clearly not in our best interest! I truely think that the company gave the trial bases a few months of easy rostering just to buy them over..and they never took ful use of the variuos "tools" that they have built in to the 5/2/5/4 deal. I am truely amazed to hear some, quite a few, of our pilots looking at their rosters saying "Ohh, my god!! Whatīs this?? Can they do that?? I thought... " DID THEY NOT READ ALL THE INFORMATION PROVIDED BEFORE VOTING??????
They voted for something that would have a great impact on their life, WITHOUT KNOWING WHAT THEY VOTED FOR/AGAINST??? This, I find very strange..... Or, did they read it and said "Well, itīs just in there, donīt think the comp will use it..." When I first read ALL the information I went "Hey, what the h_ll is this???" Then I sat down and made a "worst case" roster that covered a month....just played around with all the "tools" the company were putting in to the deal...then there was the loss of leave... ANYONE taking the time to sit down and REALLY look at ALL the aspects of this WOULD/SHOULD turn it down!!
I find it very dissrespectful to fellow collegues to vote without knowing what you vote for!! This regardless of you voting for or against......
/CP
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Doug the Head, I agree, but with a twist. When I was in Balpa I paid for something and got nothing. Now, I'm happy to pay Balpa nothing and get nothing.
I can't believe you guys openly agreeing that Balpa isn't really any good, consistently fails to deliver (in easyJet) and yet urging everyone to join and give this half baked outfit their hard earned money! For what? For skilled negotiators to act on our behalf? No. The people who do act on our behalf are guys at work who admit with pride that they ain't getting a penny for all their hard work. And they do work hard. Hello??!! Where the heck is the money going then?
After having voted no in all the previous ballots and flying with guys all having voted no and then finding the result to be a yes vote, well, whats the point in me paying money to an outfit that doesn't reflect my views? So like a lot of others at easyJet I quit Balpa and joined another outfit that represents great value for money and so far has been instrumental in improving my working conditions. For a lot less money. And for some strangely politically correct reason it seems that promoting said outfit openly isn't really allowed. Crazy crazy world.
I can't believe you guys openly agreeing that Balpa isn't really any good, consistently fails to deliver (in easyJet) and yet urging everyone to join and give this half baked outfit their hard earned money! For what? For skilled negotiators to act on our behalf? No. The people who do act on our behalf are guys at work who admit with pride that they ain't getting a penny for all their hard work. And they do work hard. Hello??!! Where the heck is the money going then?
After having voted no in all the previous ballots and flying with guys all having voted no and then finding the result to be a yes vote, well, whats the point in me paying money to an outfit that doesn't reflect my views? So like a lot of others at easyJet I quit Balpa and joined another outfit that represents great value for money and so far has been instrumental in improving my working conditions. For a lot less money. And for some strangely politically correct reason it seems that promoting said outfit openly isn't really allowed. Crazy crazy world.
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Guys,
You realy crack me up with your comments: why dont you join the CC and do something about it, you sound like those people in Balpa HQ who said the same to me when I resigned, after many years of membership I will have you know...
Well my answer to you is the same as to them: why get a dog and bark yourself??
Has it occured to you that I might have some ventures outside of EZY which therefore wouldnt give me the time to join the CC and thats if I wanted to do so.
You have to admit that no matter how much work you put into the negotiations the results just werent there...
You realy crack me up with your comments: why dont you join the CC and do something about it, you sound like those people in Balpa HQ who said the same to me when I resigned, after many years of membership I will have you know...
Well my answer to you is the same as to them: why get a dog and bark yourself??
Has it occured to you that I might have some ventures outside of EZY which therefore wouldnt give me the time to join the CC and thats if I wanted to do so.
You have to admit that no matter how much work you put into the negotiations the results just werent there...
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If BALPA truely want membership to increase they seem to be doing precious litttle about it. Where is the publicity in the crewroom, who are the CC members? I haven't a clue! It comes across a some secrect society that wants you to join but wont give you any info until you do.....QED poor response. After 6 years with BALPA I left prior to joining EZY, not nearly enough bang for my buck. Since joining EZY I have canvassed opinon whether to rejoin or not. The overwhelming view which I have heard has been negative, particularly from the FOs, and mixed with some vitriol I might add.
Whether the opinions they express are corrrect or not it shows the up hill struggle BALPA has. If they want others to join then get some decent publicity - tell us what tricks the company are up to (like the T&G did for the cabin crew) and you may find the response more positive. More importantly, get an aim, fight tooth and nail and get it. If I feel that what you are fighting for is worth it and you will take it to what ever ends to get it I'll be first in the membership line, so far I'm still very undecided.
Whether the opinions they express are corrrect or not it shows the up hill struggle BALPA has. If they want others to join then get some decent publicity - tell us what tricks the company are up to (like the T&G did for the cabin crew) and you may find the response more positive. More importantly, get an aim, fight tooth and nail and get it. If I feel that what you are fighting for is worth it and you will take it to what ever ends to get it I'll be first in the membership line, so far I'm still very undecided.
Last edited by nimrod42; 30th Jun 2005 at 23:00.
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Does it really come as a great surprise that so many are now looking to leave Easyjet......5/2/5/4 is horrendously fatiguing, the 5/2/5 equates to a 12 day period with only 2 days rest. It is unsustainable, making many crews ill and only encouraging people to look elsewhere. Management wise up, stop crucifying your crews for profit or you will pay the price in the long term. I would love to know which idiots voted yes.
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I voted yes 
I like 5/2/5/4 much less fatiguing than 6/3/6/3.
I was part of the original trial so have been on it for a while....
As for BALPA publicity, well I suggested they put noticeboards up in crew rooms with info about BALPA but this was disregarded.
A cheap IKEA noticeboard would do the trick with membership info, the headlines from the latest newsletters (to show BALPA do actually do stuff in between pay deals) and a list of past achievements....
I like 5/2/5/4 much less fatiguing than 6/3/6/3.
I was part of the original trial so have been on it for a while....
As for BALPA publicity, well I suggested they put noticeboards up in crew rooms with info about BALPA but this was disregarded.
A cheap IKEA noticeboard would do the trick with membership info, the headlines from the latest newsletters (to show BALPA do actually do stuff in between pay deals) and a list of past achievements....
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Hi BB,
I must be one of those 'idiots' that you are refering to. Ok so flying 5 days on the trot can be fatigueing. But it is better than 6 days as before.
With the previous 6/3 roster, the total hours off before going back to work were often about 77,(that doesn't include flexi days). Now the minimum is 68 (when in the 2 days off period), and looking at my latest rosters is often around 72 hours.
Those 5 hours are precious, but the change from earlies to lates on day 4 and a total of 6 days working imho is far more fatigueing. Also the deal means that we get a break from earlies for 12 days, and a very useful 4 day off break as well.
So I guess for each of us we look at things differently, and for me this system is better.
As for BALPA, I agree that there should be more professional assistance to the CC. I think it is wrong that we have well intentioned, but unpaid and amateur negotiators doing so much of the work.
Finally, maybe the membership numbers could be improved by reducing the % paid when the company membership reaches various percentages of the total work force. i.e 1% for up to 60%, 0.8% from 60-75%, 0.6% from 75-98% and 0.55% for greater than 98%.
That's a challenge for an expanding airline, but it would incentivise the pilots to join and BALPA to increase membership. By doing what the pilots are asking for, and consequently having greater authority when dealing with the company, everyone would be satisfied (well, some of the time anyway)
I must be one of those 'idiots' that you are refering to. Ok so flying 5 days on the trot can be fatigueing. But it is better than 6 days as before.
With the previous 6/3 roster, the total hours off before going back to work were often about 77,(that doesn't include flexi days). Now the minimum is 68 (when in the 2 days off period), and looking at my latest rosters is often around 72 hours.
Those 5 hours are precious, but the change from earlies to lates on day 4 and a total of 6 days working imho is far more fatigueing. Also the deal means that we get a break from earlies for 12 days, and a very useful 4 day off break as well.
So I guess for each of us we look at things differently, and for me this system is better.
As for BALPA, I agree that there should be more professional assistance to the CC. I think it is wrong that we have well intentioned, but unpaid and amateur negotiators doing so much of the work.
Finally, maybe the membership numbers could be improved by reducing the % paid when the company membership reaches various percentages of the total work force. i.e 1% for up to 60%, 0.8% from 60-75%, 0.6% from 75-98% and 0.55% for greater than 98%.
That's a challenge for an expanding airline, but it would incentivise the pilots to join and BALPA to increase membership. By doing what the pilots are asking for, and consequently having greater authority when dealing with the company, everyone would be satisfied (well, some of the time anyway)
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Before I left Ezy, they were trying to implement 5 earlies etc. What a load of ...p! I personally find earlies extremely tiring and they completely ruin your social life. That is if you have the time and the energy to have one.
As for Balpa at Ezy, they are no way strong enough to be bullish with the company and never will be. I am at BY now or should I say T-fly. Balpa is huge in the company and they never mess us around! Block windows in place,loads of leave and I have only had three roster changes in a year and a half. Fine, you get a SSH which is five hours but you get two associated rest days.
Since leaving Ezy I now realise that there is a lot more than life than being knackered and flying an orange. The company will keep on chipping until there is nothing left to chip away at. When I was there, they wanted to get rid of crew food, loyalty bonuses and reduce our holidays. I was fed up with the company. I was a number as opposed to a person. Since leaving, I can safely say that it is a breath of fresh air to fly for an airline that cares for it's pilots.
I made the right choice! I am out!
As for Balpa at Ezy, they are no way strong enough to be bullish with the company and never will be. I am at BY now or should I say T-fly. Balpa is huge in the company and they never mess us around! Block windows in place,loads of leave and I have only had three roster changes in a year and a half. Fine, you get a SSH which is five hours but you get two associated rest days.
Since leaving Ezy I now realise that there is a lot more than life than being knackered and flying an orange. The company will keep on chipping until there is nothing left to chip away at. When I was there, they wanted to get rid of crew food, loyalty bonuses and reduce our holidays. I was fed up with the company. I was a number as opposed to a person. Since leaving, I can safely say that it is a breath of fresh air to fly for an airline that cares for it's pilots.
I made the right choice! I am out!
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Buffet boundary
Indeed 5/2/5 would be unsustainable.............but that's why there is a 4 afterwards!!!!!!!!!!!!
But ........ hang on ............ 4 off/ 5 on / 2 off.......that's only 5 days work in 11!
Notice boards were delivered last year to every crewroom and then removed or not put up. We were then told that only approved workmen could actually put up the boards. The replacement is already in hand.
Nimrod42
Ther have been numerous drop file letters and notices plus any Balpa member has access to the Balpa website and forum and could have told you who the CC were and how to contact any one of us.
Be honest......you didn't really try very hard to find out.
Sadly the TG thing was nonsense. You wouldn't want us giving you that type of service would you? They are the group that gave up their own loyalty bonus don't forget.
flappyfeet
Interesting comments but if Balpa were to provide the ful time support you are suggesting it would not only be unique (all professions) but would also probably hike the membership fees by several hundred per cent!!
CSDU
You said -
Well the entitlements today are exactly the same as when you left. Leave delivery was total chaos this year, but a formula is well under way to correct it.
Indeed 5/2/5 would be unsustainable.............but that's why there is a 4 afterwards!!!!!!!!!!!!
But ........ hang on ............ 4 off/ 5 on / 2 off.......that's only 5 days work in 11!
Notice boards were delivered last year to every crewroom and then removed or not put up. We were then told that only approved workmen could actually put up the boards. The replacement is already in hand.
Nimrod42
Ther have been numerous drop file letters and notices plus any Balpa member has access to the Balpa website and forum and could have told you who the CC were and how to contact any one of us.
Be honest......you didn't really try very hard to find out.
Sadly the TG thing was nonsense. You wouldn't want us giving you that type of service would you? They are the group that gave up their own loyalty bonus don't forget.
flappyfeet
Interesting comments but if Balpa were to provide the ful time support you are suggesting it would not only be unique (all professions) but would also probably hike the membership fees by several hundred per cent!!
CSDU
You said -
When I was there, they wanted to get rid of crew food, loyalty bonuses and reduce our holidays.
Last edited by FlapsOne; 1st Jul 2005 at 20:15.
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Flaps One
But hang on... 5 on,2 off,5 on...that's 10 days on in 12!
Don't pretend that you have more days off than you work. You've just shown the forum how you, as a BALPA rep, distort information to reinforce the management position. Won't be very good for your memebrship, will it?
Don't pretend that you have more days off than you work. You've just shown the forum how you, as a BALPA rep, distort information to reinforce the management position. Won't be very good for your memebrship, will it?
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Flaps 1 your tone is not helping your case.
I have not received any information in my drop file nor have I seen ANY BALPA publicity in my crewroom in the entire time I have been with EZY. The most recent minutes of CC meetings are 3 yes 3 years old. Frankly you prove my point, if have to go around asking who is on the CC they are obviously not promoting themselves as perhaps they should. A BALPA rouges gallery on the wall is hardly new technology!
As for visiting the website, I can't, I resigned from BALPA. Again, it seems it's a club of "please join but we wont tell you anything until you do". That I'm afraid doesn't cut it for me. I have actively attempted to find out what is going on by talking to current members to see whether it is worth rejoining. The response....... a shrug of the shoulders and "I haven't a clue", their words not mine before I receive a lashing.
You talk of the T&G in rather derisory terms, frankly I was impressed how quickly they mobilised their troops into action; it certainly seemed to give the company pause for thought. As for giving away their loyalty bonus away yes they did and poor show too. But didn't you negotiate the FOs away also plus a 10% pay cut for new joiners and captains?????
If BALPA wants to increase it's membership attempting it "by mallet" on PPRUNE will not achieve results. It's campaigning in the crewroom that will get new joiners and people like me to rejoin the fold, none of which I have seen or heard of.
Again, before you reject my comments out of hand remember it's me you need to convince not the other way round. I want EZY to be the airline it is capable of being, simply prove to me and the majority of others that BALPA can achieve that. Until you can I will stick with IPA/IPF.
I have not received any information in my drop file nor have I seen ANY BALPA publicity in my crewroom in the entire time I have been with EZY. The most recent minutes of CC meetings are 3 yes 3 years old. Frankly you prove my point, if have to go around asking who is on the CC they are obviously not promoting themselves as perhaps they should. A BALPA rouges gallery on the wall is hardly new technology!
As for visiting the website, I can't, I resigned from BALPA. Again, it seems it's a club of "please join but we wont tell you anything until you do". That I'm afraid doesn't cut it for me. I have actively attempted to find out what is going on by talking to current members to see whether it is worth rejoining. The response....... a shrug of the shoulders and "I haven't a clue", their words not mine before I receive a lashing.
You talk of the T&G in rather derisory terms, frankly I was impressed how quickly they mobilised their troops into action; it certainly seemed to give the company pause for thought. As for giving away their loyalty bonus away yes they did and poor show too. But didn't you negotiate the FOs away also plus a 10% pay cut for new joiners and captains?????
If BALPA wants to increase it's membership attempting it "by mallet" on PPRUNE will not achieve results. It's campaigning in the crewroom that will get new joiners and people like me to rejoin the fold, none of which I have seen or heard of.
Again, before you reject my comments out of hand remember it's me you need to convince not the other way round. I want EZY to be the airline it is capable of being, simply prove to me and the majority of others that BALPA can achieve that. Until you can I will stick with IPA/IPF.
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"Like trying to get information from a secret society"Hmmn. . ."The best we could achieve". Christ it hasn't changed one little bit since BM fifteen/ twenty years ago.Do yourself a favour guys,open your eyes and ask why,exactly bloody why, your CC constantly underachieves? In BM the answer was simple, CC today/management next day;Oh, and all members of the same"club",the more things change the more they stay the same.
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Flaps, you're doing a great job promoting BALPA membership on these forums....keep up the good work, such mediation and negotiation skills. Should be up to 100% membership in no time at all.
Do you not think that perhaps a slight change in attitude might persuade the undecided.
OK, well let's see then.....I finish sometime after midnight on my last late duty (that'll be a superbly negotiated 'disturbed day off"...thanks for those BALPA)
I get home around 2am and am probably asleep by 3am . So please, let's be realistic, day 1 very often doesn't really count. I have 2 complete days off before tucking up in bed at 8pm on the 4th day so that i can be up at 4am for my next block of 12 days with 2 days off.
4 days off Flaps ?.......yeah right
Nice one
Do you not think that perhaps a slight change in attitude might persuade the undecided.
OK, well let's see then.....I finish sometime after midnight on my last late duty (that'll be a superbly negotiated 'disturbed day off"...thanks for those BALPA)
I get home around 2am and am probably asleep by 3am . So please, let's be realistic, day 1 very often doesn't really count. I have 2 complete days off before tucking up in bed at 8pm on the 4th day so that i can be up at 4am for my next block of 12 days with 2 days off.
4 days off Flaps ?.......yeah right
Nice one
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Why do you all seem to blame BALPA for the situation you are in? Your management put these terms in place and if not enough of the workforce stood united and argued against the terms then you really can't blame anyone but yourselves.
It IS a catch 22; all the time you sit blaming the one organisation that could possibly improve your lot (barring you starting a completely new one that attracts a united and significant number of members) then you are at the mercy of whatever your management want to force upon you.
Sure, BALPA in your company could do more, TELL THEM. Sure, you could do more to help yourselves. To get decent terms and conditions and more importantly, to protect them, you need to be united, otherwise you are toothless. Why is it that CSU has left for pastures greener and likes what he sees? 40 years of establishment and extremely strong membership of one body (which happens to be BALPA, but needn't be). The CC in T-Fly is strong, because they have a mandate, demonstrated through membership figures. Your lot can not improve all the time you are a disparate group, unless it gets so bad that the numbers walking sends a message to the management.
With the expansion and the lack of experienced pilots on the job market, the coming years could be good for swapping the hand that holds the big negotiating stick, the management sitting pretty all the time that the pilots don't unite and force their hand.
So what to do? Don't like BALPA? Don't like what they have (or haven't done) for you in the past? Happy to get 'nothing for nothing?' Well, continue watching your Ts&Cs slide forever downwards or pick up the baton and strive to get support for a united front, be it through BALPA or some other representative body.
There endeth the lesson! Didn't mean to preach, but from an outsider, I think you will find it to be true; it's the same in all industries these days.....costs being constantly driven down and weak workforces having no option but to walk.....well I suppose you could always apply to T-Fly....I hear we are looking for about 180 pilots, including direct entry 737 captains over the coming months............!!
All the best to you all in OrangeWorld.
PP
It IS a catch 22; all the time you sit blaming the one organisation that could possibly improve your lot (barring you starting a completely new one that attracts a united and significant number of members) then you are at the mercy of whatever your management want to force upon you.
Sure, BALPA in your company could do more, TELL THEM. Sure, you could do more to help yourselves. To get decent terms and conditions and more importantly, to protect them, you need to be united, otherwise you are toothless. Why is it that CSU has left for pastures greener and likes what he sees? 40 years of establishment and extremely strong membership of one body (which happens to be BALPA, but needn't be). The CC in T-Fly is strong, because they have a mandate, demonstrated through membership figures. Your lot can not improve all the time you are a disparate group, unless it gets so bad that the numbers walking sends a message to the management.
With the expansion and the lack of experienced pilots on the job market, the coming years could be good for swapping the hand that holds the big negotiating stick, the management sitting pretty all the time that the pilots don't unite and force their hand.
So what to do? Don't like BALPA? Don't like what they have (or haven't done) for you in the past? Happy to get 'nothing for nothing?' Well, continue watching your Ts&Cs slide forever downwards or pick up the baton and strive to get support for a united front, be it through BALPA or some other representative body.
There endeth the lesson!
Didn't mean to preach, but from an outsider, I think you will find it to be true; it's the same in all industries these days.....costs being constantly driven down and weak workforces having no option but to walk.....well I suppose you could always apply to T-Fly....I hear we are looking for about 180 pilots, including direct entry 737 captains over the coming months............!!All the best to you all in OrangeWorld.
PP
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The 4/5/2 comment was simply stated as a light-hearted counter to the previous 5/2/5.
It was not an attempt to distort anything! If it was, then the previous post had clearly distorted it the other way. The pattern is 5/2/5/4.
We did not negotiate the 10% and FO bonus demise. It was imposed 2 years ago and we did not have the resources to stop it..........now whose fault is that?
It was most certainly NOT negotiated away in favour of anything else but strangely, a few people who were not involved at the time, keep saying it was!?!!?!
Buffet
You seem to have already forgotten how the first and last day of EVERY group of days off under 6/3 was infringed with no free days returned to your roster. The common complaint was 3 days off often really meant 1. The scientific data showed clear high fatigue levels on days 4 and 5.
nimrod
How can I not talk of the TG in derisory terms? Did you read what I said?
They may have motivated their troops against something but those things were never actually on the table as proposals anyway. What's the point of that?
It's pointless taking action against something that's not going to happen.
Presumably, you know who I am, and I would appreciate an email as to which base you are at so I can find out why there are apparently no CC minutes less than 3 years old. They are produced 3/4 days after each meeting, emailed to every member. If copies are left in crewrooms they 'mysteriously' disappear with a day or so.
At my base, I have had my notice removed completely once and cleared 3 times for 'vitally imortant company matters'...............work it out folks!
Not one CC member has taken a mangement position - end of that debate.
I'll leave you all to argue the rest of the case yourselves but, bottom line is, if we don't have one solid group the managers will keep rubbing their hands with glee.
It was not an attempt to distort anything! If it was, then the previous post had clearly distorted it the other way. The pattern is 5/2/5/4.
We did not negotiate the 10% and FO bonus demise. It was imposed 2 years ago and we did not have the resources to stop it..........now whose fault is that?
It was most certainly NOT negotiated away in favour of anything else but strangely, a few people who were not involved at the time, keep saying it was!?!!?!
Buffet
You seem to have already forgotten how the first and last day of EVERY group of days off under 6/3 was infringed with no free days returned to your roster. The common complaint was 3 days off often really meant 1. The scientific data showed clear high fatigue levels on days 4 and 5.
nimrod
How can I not talk of the TG in derisory terms? Did you read what I said?
They may have motivated their troops against something but those things were never actually on the table as proposals anyway. What's the point of that?
It's pointless taking action against something that's not going to happen.
Presumably, you know who I am, and I would appreciate an email as to which base you are at so I can find out why there are apparently no CC minutes less than 3 years old. They are produced 3/4 days after each meeting, emailed to every member. If copies are left in crewrooms they 'mysteriously' disappear with a day or so.
At my base, I have had my notice removed completely once and cleared 3 times for 'vitally imortant company matters'...............work it out folks!
Not one CC member has taken a mangement position - end of that debate.
I'll leave you all to argue the rest of the case yourselves but, bottom line is, if we don't have one solid group the managers will keep rubbing their hands with glee.
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Flaps 1 I don't have foggyist who you are so I can't e mail you. Please come to LPL and educate us on mass. I agree we need a united front otherwise our terms and conditions will continue to fall. However, whether you feel some of the views expressed on this forum are valid or not is immaterial! There is a degree of mistrust that BALPA has to overcome. A few PR skills some decent publicity and an active recruiting campagain would go a long way. Tell us what you want to get out of this years negociations and let us skeptics judge you on your results. If the company is playing hard to get then come back to the workforce and beat the drum. If we feel you will fight the good fight and use everything in your power to get it then we will support you. I will be first in the queue.
Unfortunately many at the moment consider BALPA a toothless tiger!! I say again it is for the CC to convince me not the other way around.
Unfortunately many at the moment consider BALPA a toothless tiger!! I say again it is for the CC to convince me not the other way around.