People Leaving Ezy For Greener Pastures.
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Nil Further
I have absolute fact that that is not true but the detail is not for this forum.
Cases are currently runningin several companies where slim chance of victory will produce little but precedent, but that is considered more important. It is an absolute fact that the claimant and his/her CC have a huge say in what happens.
I find the 48 hour story beyond belief - literally! Several incidents here and abroad have had instant access with overseas IFALPA cover/contact very close behind.
Whippersnapper
What a complete load of nonsense! Send me a list with details!
Balpa doesn't exist without members. How can it look after 'itself' at the expense of the very thing that makes it exist?
I have absolute fact that that is not true but the detail is not for this forum.
Cases are currently runningin several companies where slim chance of victory will produce little but precedent, but that is considered more important. It is an absolute fact that the claimant and his/her CC have a huge say in what happens.
I find the 48 hour story beyond belief - literally! Several incidents here and abroad have had instant access with overseas IFALPA cover/contact very close behind.
Whippersnapper
What a complete load of nonsense! Send me a list with details!
Balpa doesn't exist without members. How can it look after 'itself' at the expense of the very thing that makes it exist?
The fact that Balpa does not HAVE to give your case legal backing has always worried me. Perhaps you should ask the Dan-Air guys, who exactly won their unfair dismissal case! And then who claimed a victory after the court case which they said was unwinnable! Those days for me painted a very dark picture of Balpa. I have always remained a fully paid member but I have a healthy distrust of their backing!
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Don't forget, BALPA officers are not lawyers. An outside law firm is retained to give appropriate advice on such things.
Any lawyer worth his or her salt would advise against taking a case to court if there were little chance of winning - that's a requirement of their professional status. The rogues will, of course, say it quietly and continue to take your money till you are broke.
HOWEVER, when the situation demands (and I am aware of cases where it does) a potential financial loss is well worth a paper victory because more important matters are at stake.
Dan Air was a long time ago and every person, dept, attitude etc at Balpa has changed since then.
Any lawyer worth his or her salt would advise against taking a case to court if there were little chance of winning - that's a requirement of their professional status. The rogues will, of course, say it quietly and continue to take your money till you are broke.
HOWEVER, when the situation demands (and I am aware of cases where it does) a potential financial loss is well worth a paper victory because more important matters are at stake.
Dan Air was a long time ago and every person, dept, attitude etc at Balpa has changed since then.
aka Capt PPRuNe
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I respectfully suggest that those of you who think that it is only the Balpa legal support that has the option of not backing you should they think your case is unwinnable, read the small print on any of the other independant leagl aid policies that you may be in possesion of. That includes the IPA/IPF and Aircrew Legal Protection Limited. Every legal cover policy has a 'get out' clause if they think your case is not worth their effort.
Balpa is more than just legal cover but unfortunately far too many pilots can't be bothered with doing a bit more research into what exactly it is that Balpa does, besides offer advice, before dismissing it. It certainly isn't perfect but it is better than any other option out there. The companies that have the best terms and conditions for their pilots are those that have a high percentage of Balpa membership. Every management team knows that a divided workforce is one they can manipulate over terms and conditions. The lack of strong Balpa membership is a godsend to modern management.
Balpa is more than just legal cover but unfortunately far too many pilots can't be bothered with doing a bit more research into what exactly it is that Balpa does, besides offer advice, before dismissing it. It certainly isn't perfect but it is better than any other option out there. The companies that have the best terms and conditions for their pilots are those that have a high percentage of Balpa membership. Every management team knows that a divided workforce is one they can manipulate over terms and conditions. The lack of strong Balpa membership is a godsend to modern management.
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BALPA
Danny - SPOT ON!!!
This is why you, we, pilots, should stop b*** and get a membership ASAP so we can get this company going in the right direction!! This is, as far as I can see, the ONLY way to get things done!! As Danny said, itīs not perfect but the best, the only, way to do it! Just take a look around....BA, Virgin etc.....
/CP
This is why you, we, pilots, should stop b*** and get a membership ASAP so we can get this company going in the right direction!! This is, as far as I can see, the ONLY way to get things done!! As Danny said, itīs not perfect but the best, the only, way to do it! Just take a look around....BA, Virgin etc.....
/CP
Gentleman,
You may well be right but there are many people who in previous companies have felt aggrieved by Balpas action or inaction. It is all well and good saying we all should just join Balpa, but that is just not working. When newly trained pilots join a company they will fly with people who are upset by Balpa, and it is easy to be sold the argument that it is just not worth it. As I said in a previous post I am a long term Balpa member, and although I have many times questioned my membership, I always come to the conclusion it is better to be involved. However Balpa are going to have to start thinking about new recruitment techniques, especially in the european wide locos! At the end of the day it is in all of our interests.
You may well be right but there are many people who in previous companies have felt aggrieved by Balpas action or inaction. It is all well and good saying we all should just join Balpa, but that is just not working. When newly trained pilots join a company they will fly with people who are upset by Balpa, and it is easy to be sold the argument that it is just not worth it. As I said in a previous post I am a long term Balpa member, and although I have many times questioned my membership, I always come to the conclusion it is better to be involved. However Balpa are going to have to start thinking about new recruitment techniques, especially in the european wide locos! At the end of the day it is in all of our interests.
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Am I missing something here???
Posted by scroggs on t & c -
"The Virgin pay deal was negotiated a couple of years ago, and involved both an increase in basic pay and the introduction of an element of productivity pay and profit-related pay. These combine to produce the Ģ13 (or so) per block hour that FNG refers to. (This figure is for FOs). The net result was an increase of around 25% in real terms over the three years of the pay deal for all VS pilots. Prior to the deal, Virgin was arguably the western world's worst-paid long haul airline (though there were other lifestyle advantages which mostly remain). That is no longer the case! The deal was negotiated by our excellent BALPA CC, with the strong backing of a 90+% BALPA membership. "
Need more facts to join???!!!
To new joiners being talked in to not joining I say this:
Do you, with a whole career in front of you, want this career of yours to become a nice one?? One where you will get a chance to build a family and have time left to spend with it?? Do you want to get your leave back, the one that was "stolen" from us and perhaps get even more leave and control over it?? Do you want to work for a "career minded" airline?? etc etc etc....
Or,
Do you want to fly 900 hours a year?? (yea, I know you donīt mind doing just that now, when you are new and have low experience, no family etc. BUT itīs NOT fun after a few years in business!!), Work so much that when you actually get time of you are to knackered to enjoy it?? Have roster changes every time you check in?? Have a staff travel not even worth talking about?? etc etc etc.....
How can this not be the easiest choice you have to make in your career?? Is it just me or what??
/CP
"The Virgin pay deal was negotiated a couple of years ago, and involved both an increase in basic pay and the introduction of an element of productivity pay and profit-related pay. These combine to produce the Ģ13 (or so) per block hour that FNG refers to. (This figure is for FOs). The net result was an increase of around 25% in real terms over the three years of the pay deal for all VS pilots. Prior to the deal, Virgin was arguably the western world's worst-paid long haul airline (though there were other lifestyle advantages which mostly remain). That is no longer the case! The deal was negotiated by our excellent BALPA CC, with the strong backing of a 90+% BALPA membership. "
Need more facts to join???!!!
To new joiners being talked in to not joining I say this:
Do you, with a whole career in front of you, want this career of yours to become a nice one?? One where you will get a chance to build a family and have time left to spend with it?? Do you want to get your leave back, the one that was "stolen" from us and perhaps get even more leave and control over it?? Do you want to work for a "career minded" airline?? etc etc etc....
Or,
Do you want to fly 900 hours a year?? (yea, I know you donīt mind doing just that now, when you are new and have low experience, no family etc. BUT itīs NOT fun after a few years in business!!), Work so much that when you actually get time of you are to knackered to enjoy it?? Have roster changes every time you check in?? Have a staff travel not even worth talking about?? etc etc etc.....
How can this not be the easiest choice you have to make in your career?? Is it just me or what??
/CP
CaptainProp,
Yes in an ideal world this would be an easy decision. Unfortunately in the real world people are still reluctant to join Balpa. Whichever way you look at it something will have to change to rectify the situation especially at a company like Easyjet. I wish I knew the answer!
Yes in an ideal world this would be an easy decision. Unfortunately in the real world people are still reluctant to join Balpa. Whichever way you look at it something will have to change to rectify the situation especially at a company like Easyjet. I wish I knew the answer!
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The only way to "rectify" is to join BALPA! This is THE ONLY WAY to get the company to listen! The way it is now they donīt have to listen....so they donīt!! I donīt blame them either to be honest...they are just sitting there looking at us (pilots) thinking "What a bunch of idiots!!" Because they know d__n well that IF we get the membership nrīs up higher they will have to listen!! At the moment they are a bit busy though.....laughing at "us" voting FOR the 5/2/5/4 deal!! 
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Iīm not in favour of monopolies but I agree that joining BALPA is the only was to stop the decay of our terms and conditions.
BALPAīs bargaining power has been seriously undermined by lotīs of people leaving BALPA, or new hires not joining at all.
BALPA has (finally!!) woken up and is now agressively trying to (re-) recruit pilots at all bases, including bases abroad.
Unfortunately BALPA has manouvered itself into a catch 22 situation where it canīt score because it lacks members, but members wonīt join because BALPA canīt score.
Danny and CaptainProp, I completely agree with you and I use the same arguments when l try to persuade a freeloaders/fence sitters to join BALPA.
However....good luck trying to explain that to a pilot that is being worked more than 100 hours on a continuous basis under the īprotective umbrellaī of BALPA.
BALPAīs bargaining power has been seriously undermined by lotīs of people leaving BALPA, or new hires not joining at all.
BALPA has (finally!!) woken up and is now agressively trying to (re-) recruit pilots at all bases, including bases abroad.
Unfortunately BALPA has manouvered itself into a catch 22 situation where it canīt score because it lacks members, but members wonīt join because BALPA canīt score.
Danny and CaptainProp, I completely agree with you and I use the same arguments when l try to persuade a freeloaders/fence sitters to join BALPA.
However....good luck trying to explain that to a pilot that is being worked more than 100 hours on a continuous basis under the īprotective umbrellaī of BALPA.
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Am afraid to say that Balpa do have their own interests at heart and I speak from experience, over the XMAS period I and other colleagues were unhappy regarding a certain issue, it was just brushed aside when mentioned on the basis that it wasnt important enough...On the other hand getting sandwiches without mayonaise and tomatoes was top priority...
That was the final straw for me and my money is now being invested in something I know I will get something in return.
That was the final straw for me and my money is now being invested in something I know I will get something in return.
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Springbok. What does that tell you? If you want somthing done you have to do it your self. So instead of huffing and walking away why dont you join the council and sort it out yourself.
BALPA: Lower your fees. 1% of salery is too much, a redution in subscription will soon bring up the numbers. If you halve the subscription I am sure you will get a doubling of membership in easyjet
BALPA: Lower your fees. 1% of salery is too much, a redution in subscription will soon bring up the numbers. If you halve the subscription I am sure you will get a doubling of membership in easyjet
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Flaps 15
Yeah we could make it 10p a year and then get nothing for our money.
For a professional association 1% is a very low sub compared with many others.
Look at what Southwest SWAPA get for their 2% and you will see which way subs really need to go.
Try having an incident/accident, or just fail a breath test in a foreign country, and then see whether 1% still seems too much.
For a professional association 1% is a very low sub compared with many others.
Look at what Southwest SWAPA get for their 2% and you will see which way subs really need to go.
Try having an incident/accident, or just fail a breath test in a foreign country, and then see whether 1% still seems too much.
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Try having an incident/accident, or just fail a breath test in a foreign country, and then see whether 1% still seems too much.
If you want somthing done you have to do it your self. So instead of huffing and walking away why dont you join the council and sort it out yourself.
What always amazes me is the lack of CRM from certain pilots when it comes to joining a union. On the aircraft we are expected to work together and solve problems as a team, but when it comes to improving our terms and conditions itīs a strick īone man showī which will make every CRM instructor cry.
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"Am afraid to say that Balpa do have their own interests at heart and I speak from experience, over the XMAS period I and other colleagues were unhappy regarding a certain issue, it was just brushed aside when mentioned on the basis that it wasnt important enough...On the other hand getting sandwiches without mayonaise and tomatoes was top priority...
That was the final straw for me and my money is now being invested in something I know I will get something in return."
- Springbok449
And now your "issue" is being solved with your "investments" going elsewhere????
Guys!! TIME TO WAKE UP HERE!!!
No, you prob havenīt been getting very much for you subs before in easy...but thatīs because your collegues were to lazy to join!!! I know, some of you have big doubts about this whole BALPA thing....but believe me, you WILL regret it if you donīt join / stay with BALPA!! All you have to do is take a look around...the answer is out there!! (See my post above!!)
Not that Iīm a BALPA specialist, but how much time does BALPA need to actualy start pulling weights at easy (with sufficient % of the force joined in)?? 2 years??Less??
In my world 2 years membership would be worth it...right?? Because we all know (I hope you DO now!!
) what the alt to joining is.....if not see my post above...again....
/CP
That was the final straw for me and my money is now being invested in something I know I will get something in return."
- Springbok449
And now your "issue" is being solved with your "investments" going elsewhere????
Guys!! TIME TO WAKE UP HERE!!!
No, you prob havenīt been getting very much for you subs before in easy...but thatīs because your collegues were to lazy to join!!! I know, some of you have big doubts about this whole BALPA thing....but believe me, you WILL regret it if you donīt join / stay with BALPA!! All you have to do is take a look around...the answer is out there!! (See my post above!!)
Not that Iīm a BALPA specialist, but how much time does BALPA need to actualy start pulling weights at easy (with sufficient % of the force joined in)?? 2 years??Less??
In my world 2 years membership would be worth it...right?? Because we all know (I hope you DO now!!
) what the alt to joining is.....if not see my post above...again.... /CP
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TIME TO WAKE UP HERE!!!!??????
Sorry, struggling to do that after 5 earlies in a row as voted for by our illustrious BALPA members. That epic piece of negotiation will surely open the BALPA floodgates now. Way to go BALPA, thanks a lot for that one. Can't wait to see what else you've got up your sleeve to improve my working conditions. Bring it on.
Sorry, struggling to do that after 5 earlies in a row as voted for by our illustrious BALPA members. That epic piece of negotiation will surely open the BALPA floodgates now. Way to go BALPA, thanks a lot for that one. Can't wait to see what else you've got up your sleeve to improve my working conditions. Bring it on.
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Mr Ree,
Was it REALY BALPAS fault that the 5/2/5/4 happened?? Or is it our fellow collegues who voted yes that are to be "blamed"?
i totaly agree that the whole deal is/was a joke!! No doubt there!! BUT then WE should have voted NO!!! RIGHT?? Thatīs what you do when you vote!!!!! Vote YES of you are for, NO if you are against!!!! BUT since we donīt have enough members joined in, the whole thing went out of hand....unfortunantly.... All the company had to do was to run the trial, give fairly easy rosters during the trial, persuade a "few" to vote for it, and the whole deal was to go through!!
This is possible when the amount of members is low, it COULD not and WOULD not happen with 90% + members!!
/CP
By the way....Iīm knackered aswell!!! Thatīs why I feel itīs important to write here on this subject!
Was it REALY BALPAS fault that the 5/2/5/4 happened?? Or is it our fellow collegues who voted yes that are to be "blamed"?
i totaly agree that the whole deal is/was a joke!! No doubt there!! BUT then WE should have voted NO!!! RIGHT?? Thatīs what you do when you vote!!!!! Vote YES of you are for, NO if you are against!!!! BUT since we donīt have enough members joined in, the whole thing went out of hand....unfortunantly.... All the company had to do was to run the trial, give fairly easy rosters during the trial, persuade a "few" to vote for it, and the whole deal was to go through!!
This is possible when the amount of members is low, it COULD not and WOULD not happen with 90% + members!!
/CP
By the way....Iīm knackered aswell!!! Thatīs why I feel itīs important to write here on this subject!
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Well said CaptainProp!
Iīm getting sick of all the people at work complaining about this and that, but are too bloody cheap to pay 1% in order to get it changed!
I agree that with this lousy 5-2-5-4 deal BALPA has failed to win over the īhearts and mindsī of the EZY pilot workforce, but at the same time itīs unfair to expect BALPA to hammer out a great deal when so few pilots are members.
You get what you pay for Mr Ree, and if you pay nothing you get nothing!
Iīm getting sick of all the people at work complaining about this and that, but are too bloody cheap to pay 1% in order to get it changed!
I agree that with this lousy 5-2-5-4 deal BALPA has failed to win over the īhearts and mindsī of the EZY pilot workforce, but at the same time itīs unfair to expect BALPA to hammer out a great deal when so few pilots are members.
You get what you pay for Mr Ree, and if you pay nothing you get nothing!