People Leaving Ezy For Greener Pastures.
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With the present 6/3 roster (7/2 really, if you figure an early start and a late finish) that feeling will wear off quickly.
For most guys who have been slaving for the orange plantation for 2 years+, that feeling has long gone.
Unless a real improvement is made, such as a genuine 5/3 roster, people will keep using easyJet as a stepping stone or stop over untill a job comes along that allows you to have a life as well....
A life besides flying, what a concept!!
For most guys who have been slaving for the orange plantation for 2 years+, that feeling has long gone.
Unless a real improvement is made, such as a genuine 5/3 roster, people will keep using easyJet as a stepping stone or stop over untill a job comes along that allows you to have a life as well....
A life besides flying, what a concept!!
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Apparantly the CAA have warned Easy that they must improve their rostering or risk having the Airbus removed from their AOC.Good news if its true ,but dont think when things do improve that Ray has turned all gooey on you or that it has anything to do with BALPA.
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So now, if things do improve, it's got nothing to do with anybody at all, except the CAA who suddenly become the knights in shining armour!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How many (thousands) of pilots over the years have steadfastly criticised the CAA for not giving a toss about FTL reality?
But now comes the suggestion that, if things don't improve, one type will be withdrawn - leaving the 73 to carry on as before no doubt
Not Orange - you're in fantasy land!
How many (thousands) of pilots over the years have steadfastly criticised the CAA for not giving a toss about FTL reality?
But now comes the suggestion that, if things don't improve, one type will be withdrawn - leaving the 73 to carry on as before no doubt
Not Orange - you're in fantasy land!
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Re the bit about different salaries for the same job.
There is nothing illegal about paying two people different salaries for the same job, as long as it is not below the national minimum wage. This is why some employers have the 'Do not discuss your salary with other members of staff' statement in the contract of employment, some of which go as far as warning of dismissal if you do.
A Company will pay the lowest salary they can get away with, for any employee, regardless of the job they do.
There is nothing illegal about paying two people different salaries for the same job, as long as it is not below the national minimum wage. This is why some employers have the 'Do not discuss your salary with other members of staff' statement in the contract of employment, some of which go as far as warning of dismissal if you do.
A Company will pay the lowest salary they can get away with, for any employee, regardless of the job they do.
Apparantly
You do really talk the most god-awful sh1te NO,
Oh, and APPARENTLY you can't spell either!
Last edited by Wizofoz; 23rd Apr 2004 at 21:30.
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I too have heard that the CAA have warned easy to improve their rostering. This was late last year. I don't really want to get too specific but it was from someone I know who is married to a CAA inspector. I heard that there are different levels of warning and this was the highest. I understood that the CAA were getting quite frustrated and if easy did not improve then the AOC was under threat.
My rosters do seem to have improved recently. None of this is BS wizofoz and I hope it's up to your exceptional standards of literacy.
My rosters do seem to have improved recently. None of this is BS wizofoz and I hope it's up to your exceptional standards of literacy.
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' It is an unfortunate fact that the rostering and crewing issues have never been resolved and it remains an open wound within the airline.'
If the management think this, why is everyone in denial that the CAA may be running out of patience?
There are things worth defending at easy but this is the one area that is a disgrace ! Everyone seems to have forgotten the fact that a very few years ago this issue reached the national newspapers, with rapid backtracking and spin worthy of Blair at his best the order of the day at Lalaland.
Did the promises come to anything? No of course not .
The CAA have probably realised that the only way to get attitudes changed is with a large stick, good luck to them and the many good people on the line at easy.
If the management think this, why is everyone in denial that the CAA may be running out of patience?
There are things worth defending at easy but this is the one area that is a disgrace ! Everyone seems to have forgotten the fact that a very few years ago this issue reached the national newspapers, with rapid backtracking and spin worthy of Blair at his best the order of the day at Lalaland.
Did the promises come to anything? No of course not .
The CAA have probably realised that the only way to get attitudes changed is with a large stick, good luck to them and the many good people on the line at easy.
kite,
A rational post from a credible source is always welcome. NOs previous rantings have left him with little credibility.
Very interesting to hear this from a second source. Which aspects of the rosters were CAA unhappy with? (After all, CAP271 is THEIR handy work!!)
A rational post from a credible source is always welcome. NOs previous rantings have left him with little credibility.
Very interesting to hear this from a second source. Which aspects of the rosters were CAA unhappy with? (After all, CAP271 is THEIR handy work!!)
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Wiz
Apparently CAP 271 is a maritime shipping law document (according to Google).
Seriously, I would think that the CAA were upset about the application of CAP371 limitations as a framework for normal rostering, meaning most duties are rostered to the limit.
Also the fatigue-inducing change from earlies to lates in the middle of a six-day rotation.
Also the practice of rostering flexidays at the end of a continuous six day period, creating a regime of 7-day duties without adequate rest day cover.
Also the fact that max FDP duties are rostered for up to six consecutive days.
If these threats are true, I'm sure the eJ management will have to make an embarrassing climbdown. They will naturally feel hard done by or "got at", and we will be feeling the edge of the knife from their petulant revenge for years to come!
Apparently CAP 271 is a maritime shipping law document (according to Google).
Seriously, I would think that the CAA were upset about the application of CAP371 limitations as a framework for normal rostering, meaning most duties are rostered to the limit.
Also the fatigue-inducing change from earlies to lates in the middle of a six-day rotation.
Also the practice of rostering flexidays at the end of a continuous six day period, creating a regime of 7-day duties without adequate rest day cover.
Also the fact that max FDP duties are rostered for up to six consecutive days.
If these threats are true, I'm sure the eJ management will have to make an embarrassing climbdown. They will naturally feel hard done by or "got at", and we will be feeling the edge of the knife from their petulant revenge for years to come!
If the CAA were serious about this problem they would have got off their collective behinds years ago. The CAP371 revision draft from around 1991 was a lot more restrictive than the final copy, but commercial pressure from operators relaxed some of the rules.
Personally I think its a disgrace that this can happen. Can you really blame Easyjet for rostering to the limit? The point is they are allowed to legally! It is down to the CAA to regulate our industry and control the safety aspects of our operation. How on earth do the CAA think it is right to delay implementation of the new CAP371 to 2006. There is no commercial excuse from the airlines to delay it so long. Six months lead-in for implementation should be more than enough!
Personally I think its a disgrace that this can happen. Can you really blame Easyjet for rostering to the limit? The point is they are allowed to legally! It is down to the CAA to regulate our industry and control the safety aspects of our operation. How on earth do the CAA think it is right to delay implementation of the new CAP371 to 2006. There is no commercial excuse from the airlines to delay it so long. Six months lead-in for implementation should be more than enough!
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The rostering at EZ has never been anywhere near good, but it is currently a darn sight better than it was a couple of years ago.
Nobody would dispute that there is a long way to go.
In all this time, as far as I can make out, it has always been 'legal' but often fatiguing.
I find it hard to believe that the CAA would 'dive in' unless breaches in regulations were reported and proven. Had this been the case, I'm sure the news would have broken very quickly - probably by the people that reported it in the first place.
The Balpa council have been in discussions with easy for well over a year about rostering practices and progress (darn slow - but progress) has, and is, being made.
What stagggers me is the amount of people who have whinged and moaned for years about these matters, and when progress is made, insist that 'oh well, it would have happened anyway....' or 'it only happened because of something else.........' and insist on carrying on with the same old whinge.
Nobody would dispute that there is a long way to go.
In all this time, as far as I can make out, it has always been 'legal' but often fatiguing.
I find it hard to believe that the CAA would 'dive in' unless breaches in regulations were reported and proven. Had this been the case, I'm sure the news would have broken very quickly - probably by the people that reported it in the first place.
The Balpa council have been in discussions with easy for well over a year about rostering practices and progress (darn slow - but progress) has, and is, being made.
What stagggers me is the amount of people who have whinged and moaned for years about these matters, and when progress is made, insist that 'oh well, it would have happened anyway....' or 'it only happened because of something else.........' and insist on carrying on with the same old whinge.
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Sorry Flaps, but I disagree with the comment that the rosters are legal. While they meet the absolute criteria on FDP, min rest and days off, we all know that numerous multi-sector days have no chance of operating within the scheduled time, and historically crews have been rostered into discretion by the sharp practice of publishing unrealistic flight schedules.
Furthermore, in addition to the specific numerical criteria laid down in CAP371, there is also a requirement to avoid duty patterns which can aggravate fatigue. Ezy rostering does quite the opposite, and knowingly so (it even states this requirement in the FTL section of the company's Part A manual, so the company is by default breaching its AOC).
Furthermore, in addition to the specific numerical criteria laid down in CAP371, there is also a requirement to avoid duty patterns which can aggravate fatigue. Ezy rostering does quite the opposite, and knowingly so (it even states this requirement in the FTL section of the company's Part A manual, so the company is by default breaching its AOC).
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In general I agree with you, but my point was they are published as legal. Rostering into discretion is something I have never seen nor been made aware of by any Balpa member.
Discretion has always been the Captain's decision.
The fatigue-making rostering is a major problem but the issue remains the dreaded burden of proof. The CAA have never set the criteria for a definition of fatigue.
From the Balpa side we are moving towards an improvement - hopefully very soon ( God I hope so!), but like all things, some will be happy..........some never will!
Discretion has always been the Captain's decision.
The fatigue-making rostering is a major problem but the issue remains the dreaded burden of proof. The CAA have never set the criteria for a definition of fatigue.
From the Balpa side we are moving towards an improvement - hopefully very soon ( God I hope so!), but like all things, some will be happy..........some never will!
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Rostering at Ej
When EJ brought go. They also brought a great rostering and crewing team. But instead of turning around and saying here is the answer to our problems. They decided to mess the go rostering team around. Telling them that they had to relocate to LTN and spliting the team up.
Then deciding that the go process was not up to scratch within easyjet ,they decided to P??s OFF THE Rostering and crewing team by splitting them up. It go so bad that the rostering Manager from go left and easy ended up like one of those monkeys with a pink back side. * ALL Exposed *
We all know that pilots are the hardest people to please within any airline. At go the pilots and the rostering team had a love love relationship. The reason for this was due to the fact that the rostering manager knew what he was doing and they the company adopted people freindly rosters. They even adopted married couple rosters for Married employee's with the company.
Now at easy the crews are messed around so much, on top of the long hours that they work, they have decided to leave. And I say what did they expect.
Easy come on sort out this mess so that you can straighten up and fly right. How many pilots are actually proud to say that they work for you?
Then deciding that the go process was not up to scratch within easyjet ,they decided to P??s OFF THE Rostering and crewing team by splitting them up. It go so bad that the rostering Manager from go left and easy ended up like one of those monkeys with a pink back side. * ALL Exposed *
We all know that pilots are the hardest people to please within any airline. At go the pilots and the rostering team had a love love relationship. The reason for this was due to the fact that the rostering manager knew what he was doing and they the company adopted people freindly rosters. They even adopted married couple rosters for Married employee's with the company.
Now at easy the crews are messed around so much, on top of the long hours that they work, they have decided to leave. And I say what did they expect.
Easy come on sort out this mess so that you can straighten up and fly right. How many pilots are actually proud to say that they work for you?
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Grammar
Speedbird800,
I don’t’ mean to be pedantic but it’s bought, not brought.
No pilots aren't the hardest people to please within the airline. We just want fair, workable, legal rosters that take account of fatigue and family lives.
I'll happily work a weekends (even prefer it) - but if I give rostering a years notice of my sisters wedding, then it would be nice to be able to attend - not just to get a note saying "request not possible" - I'm not even an awkward customer, I always try to help out scheduling/crewing/rostering.
When times are hard people will pay for type ratings, training, uniforms and put up with poor rostering. When times improve these people walk.
Right, time for bed.
I don’t’ mean to be pedantic but it’s bought, not brought.
No pilots aren't the hardest people to please within the airline. We just want fair, workable, legal rosters that take account of fatigue and family lives.
I'll happily work a weekends (even prefer it) - but if I give rostering a years notice of my sisters wedding, then it would be nice to be able to attend - not just to get a note saying "request not possible" - I'm not even an awkward customer, I always try to help out scheduling/crewing/rostering.
When times are hard people will pay for type ratings, training, uniforms and put up with poor rostering. When times improve these people walk.
Right, time for bed.
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Discretion has always been the Captain's decision
You're on sector 3 of 4, and you've been carrying a 20 minute delay after two sectors. Your max FDP gives only 30mins breathing space from your (legally) rostered duty.
You called crewing after sector 2 to tell them that you were running close to max FDP and did not consider discretion to be appropriate due to being on your 3rd early start. They said you should be all right and there was no standby cover available. Ops tell you there is no slot for your last sector so you should be OK.
On arrival downroute you find you have a slot delay of 45mins. You are now committed to going into discretion unless you offload the crew and wait for a new crew to be flown in from the UK which will hugely disrupt the schedule, and you and your crew.
I would say you choose discretion every time. And I would argue that it was purely your decision - more like you have been put into a position where the use of discretion is inevitable. Although technically you could have refused to go into discretion, it was too tightly rostered to make it much more than a moot point.
Sort these rosters out eJ! Discretion is a "get out of jail" card for exceptional circumstances, not just a means of getting yourselves home after a pathetic rostered duty.
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I have indeed been in the situation you describe several times.
If the crew were OK and fit to operate we continued. On 2 occaisions last Summer the crew were not prepared to do so, so we off-loaded and waited for International Rescue
On neither of those 2 occaisions was my decision questioned - even slightly.
I completely agree that rostering days very close to Max FDP limits, particularly in Summer, is an event waiting to happen. So when it happens, the network has to cope with the aftermath!
If the crew were OK and fit to operate we continued. On 2 occaisions last Summer the crew were not prepared to do so, so we off-loaded and waited for International Rescue
On neither of those 2 occaisions was my decision questioned - even slightly.
I completely agree that rostering days very close to Max FDP limits, particularly in Summer, is an event waiting to happen. So when it happens, the network has to cope with the aftermath!
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Around 250 pilots needed for BA and VS by the end of the year.
Bad news for easyJet.
http://www.britishairwaysjobs.co.uk/
A320 jobs- good news for the LGW guys.
(edited for Flaps one)
Bad news for easyJet.
http://www.britishairwaysjobs.co.uk/
A320 jobs- good news for the LGW guys.
(edited for Flaps one)
Last edited by Toilet_Town; 26th Apr 2004 at 13:54.