Eng_Icing

Quote:
Anti icing system is not certified for LSD larg supercooled droplets , freezing rain , freezing dreezle. LSD is probably what they encountered.

I disagree it is SLD. Due to altitude and temperture it more for a ice crystals event. SLD would occurr at much higher tempertures and low altitudes.

STICK N RUDDER

Well i do not blame the crew. I would say todays training is very poor from very begining of the flight training , teaching methods are bad etc..I see this every day..

Take an example of stall recovery..how do you get beyond critical AoA is by abusing the elevator so the elevator is the flight control that stalls and the flight control that unstalls AC. It s your AoA control and or speed control so you MUST push that stick fwd BUT some teach just add power keep the same pitch as we can see today.

Now flight schools or airlines teach something new the ,,new way'' to recover from the stall and even they don t teach full stall recovery.I see this with EU students who never heard of elevator trim stall,turning stall,cross control stall etc.Just not too long ago a student who finished the training did t know pitot static system failures and instrument errors.

Today we train OPERATORS not pilots..think of it you have pilots flying who never been upside down in an airplane and they are supose to recover from any attitude???? Blame flight training and my friend it will get worse...

BOAC

So many contradictions and disagreements on translation - we will have to wait for Wednesday to see how BEA do at it, and to see the FDR traces annotated in English.

So far, what I see of this tragic accident is:-

PF completely surprised by the loss of A/P and A/T and enters a steep climb - why? Unknown. I am not sure what he was 'seeing' on his panel.,

PNF and PF appear to disregard the pitch attitude and altitude change to above ?MAXREC? - why? Unknown, Ditto

At the apogee, at less than 6 deg of pitch and an unknown (low ) airspeed (having 'traded' KE for PE), it is probable the aircraft was not 'stalled', but was flying too slowly for the actual IAS to support its weight, hence it would start to descend.

Now, a confused PF ?sees this? and selects TOGA and raises the nose to arrest the descent, thereby 'stalling' the wing. A perhaps logical reaction since he had no idea of the IAS, and may have had some background 'trust' in the AB 'protecting' him. Add the change in AoA due to the descent and we are now well into 'stalled'. A long period now of 'STALL STALL' audio which as we know can be 'lost' in 'difficult' cockpit situations. Continuing 'disbelief' that the a/c can be going down with this pitch and power and constant nose-up to try and stop it.

From there on I suspect pandemonium was rife in the cockpit and no-one, including the Captain on arrival, was able to logically deduce that high pitch, high R of D and high thrust meant stall.

It is very rare for airline pilots to ever 'see' a full stall - in military (and civil) QFI days I used to hold the a/c in the stall to demonstrate such ('symptoms of the stall'). The BAC Lightning was particularly adept at producing a fairly stable stall with high r of d. I guess if you have never seen this demonstrated you would not recognise it?

I have made my comments on the absence of the Captain for ITCZ passage much earlier and my views on the necessary changes in training philosophy on another forum here.

I am still very puzzled by the CVR at

"2 h 10 min 39 to 2 h 10 min 46
PNF: Je te mets en en A T T
I'm putting you in in A T T"

ChristiaanJ

Sorry BOAC, but it's a 117-page pdf..... not to mention a remarkable amount of alphabetti-spaghetti (abbreviations and acronyms).
It took me enough time to read the French original.
It would take me several days to translate, even using a Google translation as a starting text, and since I'm not being paid for it, I have no intention of doing so.

That doesn't mean I'm not willing to try and help out with resolving ambiguities in the translation of given paragraphs or phrases. But I have no intention of working through the entire document, comparing the English to the original French.

STICK N RUDDER

Go to ADDS web site there is prediction for LSD..if you do icing training and this is from NASA it s available on AOPA and FAA/ FAST TEAM / you we ll read about it..Second have you seen documentary on NOVA about AF 447 ? if not watch it on netflix under crash of flight 447..this investigators had very good idea what happened..even they mentioned something that the Franch did not and that is..Several crews responded only with pitch change and they were up to 60 sec late reacting with power by that time they put AC into stall when pitot failed.


As far as LSD i stand by that cause it s part of the training /FAA/

airtren

During the time slot 2:12:15 - 2:12:19

Capt says:... ca descend

and 2:12:19 - 2:12:45

Capt says: Les ailes a plat !!! (exclamation signs are my addition, as it is an "imperative", an order.... to correct the "pitch up".

Mr Optimistic

Could understand training deficiency if there was low awareness/misunderstanding of modes and protections in degraded states. Not sure I would agree if it's about the existence of an aerodynamic condition called a stall, what causes it and what must be done, at the basic level, to get the wing flying again.

Yankee Whisky

Air France crash blamed on pilot error | World news | The Guardian

And this is being said without detailed technical evidence. I have heard and seen too many questions as to accept such a simplistic statement.

What is the reaction by this forum?

takata

Do not expect something unambiguous as such talk meanings are clearly based on interpretation of the context, the particular focus of talkers. Add to it translations issues for few typical expressions, and one can get it totally wrong.

There is no grammar, many sentences are only suit of words, started but unfinished. The tone is the primary clue but, even hearing the record, it would be hard to figure out many interjections due to stress level: hence, there can not be a single meaning of what is said.

At one point, (0213:39) the PNF says:
- remonte remonte remonte remonte
a) he is ordering the PF: climb! climb! climb! climb!
b) he is encouraging the aircraft to go up;
c) he is talking to the altitude gauge, or at everything (everybody) at once... who could make the difference? His tone would be about the same : high stress near panic? high stress but confidence? : one would need to see his face, where he is looking at.

Yankee Whisky

And this is being said without detailed technical evidence. I have heard and seen too many questions as to accept such a simplistic statement.

What is the reaction by this forum?

A quick correction; I meant the technical detailed report in English so that wider audience can acquaint themselves with the report.

takata

The note is saying:
0210:39 -> 0210:46: "le selecteur AIR DATA puis le sélecteur "ATT/HDG sont positionnés sur F/O on 3"
PNF : "je te mets en ATT (*)"

0210:39 -> 0210:46: "AIR DATA then ATT/HDG are switched on F/O on 3"
PNF : "I'm switching you to ATT [word(s) missing]"

This is a PF action on ADIR switching pedestal panel; he switches F/O from ADR2 to ADR3, then switches also IR2 to IR3 (ATT/HDG).

vanHorck

JC-EE

Those tears, many have them I am sure, frustration all around especially considering AF's reply....

promani

Looking at the graphs that the BEA has published in the latest report, I notice that at the time AF447 made the initial climb, the temperature had increased and the wind had not only increased, looks like off the scale, but changed direction ~180. Would this be significant, or am I talking the "proverbial"?

takata

That's typical from UAS event. TAT probes are frozen also, and most of the time they are the first to be frozen (temp climb to zero C°, temp of ice inside probes). Wind speed and direction is derived from ADR data. When speed drops a lot, TAS is wrong, Wind speed is wrong (and out of boundaries) as it is derived from comparing TAS with Ground speed (GPS).
If no wind: before 490 TAS; after 150 TAS = 340 kt wind speed.
From DFDR, they have deduced a head wind of about 15 kt during the sequence.

Level100

jcjeant,

Alas, I at least fail to see your point. The 3rd interim rpt gives simply more precision to the CV, but there is no contradiction to the 1st one. That this pilot did not have in its youth a straightforward career with the airlines (as so many others) is also obvios from the 1st report.

Cheers

PJ2

Hello, HarryMann;

Is someone making the suggestion that the cockpit crew didn't have their seatbelts on? Does the Interim Report #3 discuss this somewhere?

Under the circumstances I can't imagine how this could be true. The captain would likely have belted himself into the center seat but I haven't read that anywhere - it's the first thing I'd do though.

ChristiaanJ

Sorry... "les ailes à plat", if an imperative, means "level off" and has nothing to do with pitch attitude.

Added:
See how easily translations can confuse ? "Level off" in English can still refer to pitch attitude, or altitude.
"Les ailes à plat" in French refers to roll attitude, not pitch.

takata

Hi PJ2,
Yes, it is in the report. page 41.
1.12.4.2.1 3 Les sièges du cockpit
- Sur le siège situé en place gauche, les ceintures ventrales étaient attachées, la ceinture de l’entrejambe et les harnais d’épaules ne l’étaient pas.
- Sur le siège situé en place droite aucune ceinture n’était attachée.
From the recovered seats, they found that PNF had used only the belly seat belts, none were used on PF seat (and it was suggested elsewhere that Captain was standing behind them - not seated).

STICK N RUDDER

At the apogee, at less than 6 deg of pitch and an unknown (low ) airspeed (having 'traded' KE for PE), it is probable the aircraft was not 'stalled', but was flying too slowly for the actual IAS to support its weight, hence it would start to descend.

Agree 100%..if you demo in flight that s what happens


Now, a confused PF ?sees this? and selects TOGA and raises the nose to arrest the descent, thereby 'stalling' the wing. Aperhaps logical reaction [

Yes by natural instinct it s logical and it s logical if he thinks that pitch/elevator control altitude that s what happenes when one miss label flight controls..

Add the change in AoA due to the descent and we are now well into 'stalled'. A long period now of 'STALL STALL' audio which as we know can be 'lost' in 'difficult' cockpit situations. Continuing 'disbelief' that the a/c can be going down with this pitch and power and constant nose-up to try and stop it.

Power on stall by the book.You can stall at any pitch attitude and power setting. If you demo that s what you will observe


[/B] It is very rare for airline pilots to ever 'see' a full stall - in military (and civil) QFI days I used to hold the a/c in the stall to demonstrate such ('symptoms of the stall'). The BAC Lightning was particularly adept at producing a fairly stable stall with high r of d. I guess if you have never seen this demonstrated you would not recognise it?

Agree 100 % that s why I said poor training as far as stall/spin awareness


[/B]I have made my comments on the absence of the Captain for ITCZ passage much earlier and my views on the necessary changes in training philosophy on another forum here

AMEN brother....the question is does anyone want to listen to uspilots instructors who see the problem? Look at the training today it s production line from 0 to right seat in a year..Some one said ,,It takes one to two years to learn how to fly ..10 to 20 years to intelligently fly''..

PJ2

Thank you, Takata. The lower belt only for the PNF is easily explained as the shoulder harnesses are never used during cruise. The "no seat belt" for the PF requires greater explanation. At some point it went from fastened to unfastened. That requires that in the recovery from the sea bottom the buckles for the lap belt were undamaged and were not fastened. If they were not fastened as recovered, then either the PF unbuckled at some point or the belt was unbuckled in the impact. Without closer examination one cannot judge which is more likely.

Understand the captain was standing...I now recall that his body was found and that he was standing made sense at the time, as it does now.