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AF 447 Thread No. 5

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AF 447 Thread No. 5

Old 30th Jul 2011, 10:16
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I have been advised by the BEA this morning that they hope that the English version of the Interim Report #3 "will be available.....next Wednesday."

I am somewhat surprised that in a matter of such importance this should be the case.

The date for the issue of the report was chosen by the BEA and I would have thought they could have factored in the time needed for the simultaneous issue of an authoritative translation.
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Old 30th Jul 2011, 10:23
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Originally Posted by Amos2
..and I don't think you lot would have a clue as to what you are talking about!!
I'm sure we can take some more of that sort of attitude... provided it comes with some sort of logical explanation

Last edited by HarryMann; 30th Jul 2011 at 13:34.
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Old 30th Jul 2011, 10:34
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Cool

Hi,

It's a little difference between the interim report N°1 and interim report N°3 concerning the PF .. but it's a important point.

Let see .....

Rappor intérimaire N°1

1.5.1.3 Copilote
Homme, 32 ans
ˆ Licence FCL de pilote professionnel (CPL) obtenue le 23 avril 2001
ˆ Qualification de vol aux instruments multi-moteur (IR ME) obtenue le
16 octobre 2001
ˆ ATPL théorique obtenu en septembre 2000
Void space (my edit)
ˆ Qualification de type Airbus A340 obtenue le 26 février 2008
ˆ Fin d’adaptation en ligne le 9 juin 2008
ˆ Qualification de type Airbus A330 obtenue le 1er
décembre 2008
ˆ Fin d’adaptation en ligne le 22 décembre 2008
ˆ Autre qualification de type : Airbus A320 obtenue le 7 septembre 2004
ˆ Dernière visite d’aptitude médicale de classe 1 effectuée le 24 octobre
2008, valable jusqu’au 31 octobre 2009 avec port de verres correcteurs
obligatoire.
ˆ Heures de vol :
„ totale : 2 936 heures de vol
„ sur type : 807 heures de vol
(9)
„ dans les six derniers mois : 368 heures, 16 atterrissages, 18 décollages
„ dans les trois derniers mois : 191 heures, 7 atterrissages, 8 décollages
„ dans les trente derniers jours : 61 heures, 1 atterrissage, 2 décollages
Ce pilote avait réalisé cinq rotations sur le secteur Amérique du Sud depuis
son arrivée dans la division A330/A340 en 2008, dont une vers Rio de Janeiro.
Sa reconnaissance de ligne de type océanique était valide jusqu’au 31 mai
2010.
ECP saison d’instruction 2008/2009 :
ˆ Entraînement E33 le 2 février 2009
ˆ Contrôle Hors Ligne C34 le 3 février 2009
ˆ Cours au sol 4S le 15 janvier 2009
La validité des entraînements, contrôles et cours au sol E34, C33, CEL34, CEL33,
S1 est couverte par les dates d’obtention des qualifications de types Airbus
A330 et A340 ainsi que par la date de fin d’adaptation en ligne (lâcher).
Ces entraînements et contrôles étaient à programmer avant les échéances
suivantes :
ˆ Entraînement E34 : 31 août 2009
ˆ Contrôle Hors Ligne C33 : 31 août 2009
ˆ Contrôle En Ligne CEL34 : 31 décembre 2009
ˆ Contrôle En Ligne CEL 33 : 31 décembre 2010
ˆ Cours au sol S1 : 31 mars 2010



Rapport intérimaire N°3

1.5.1.3 Copilote place droite
1.5.1.3.1 Historique détaillé de la carrière aéronautique :

 Brevet de pilote privé avion obtenu en 2000
 Pilote de ligne théorique en 2000
Brevet de pilote professionnel avion obtenu en 2001
 Qualification de vol aux instruments sur avion bimoteur obtenue en 2001
 Brevet de pilote de planeur obtenu en 2001
 A la suite de sa sélection par Air France, stage de formation pilote à l’école de pilotage
Amaury de la Grange à Merville à partir d’octobre 2003
 QT A320 obtenue en 2004 (au sein d’Air France). Fin d’AEL et lâcher en septembre 2004
Brevet de pilote de ligne obtenu le 3 août 2007
 QT additionnelle A340 obtenue en février 2008 (au sein d’Air France). Fin d’AEL et lâcher
en juin 2008
 QT additionnelle A330, fin d’AEL et lâcher en décembre 2008

ECP saison d’instruction 2008/2009 :
 Cours au sol 4S le 15 janvier 2009
 Entraînement E33 le 2 février 2009
 Contrôle Hors Ligne C34 le 3 février 2009
Note : la validité des entraînements, contrôles et cours au sol E34, C33, CEL34, CEL33, S1
est couverte par les dates d’obtention des qualifications de types Airbus A330 et A340 ainsi
que par la date de fin d’adaptation en ligne (lâcher)

Des entraînements et contrôles étaient à programmer avant les échéances suivantes :
 Entraînement E34 : 31 août 2009
 Contrôle Hors Ligne C33 : 31 août 2009
 Contrôle En Ligne CEL34 : 31 décembre 2009
 Contrôle En Ligne CEL 33 : 31 décembre 2010
 Cours au sol S1 : 31 mars 2010
1.5.1.3.2 Entraînements

 IAS douteuse

o Entraînement au simulateur E33 de la saison d’instruction 2008-2009.
Exercice « IAS douteuse ».

Note : le programme de la QT A320 chez Air France en 2004 ne comprenait pas d’exercice sur le vol
avec IAS douteuse.

 Décrochage

o QT A320 : séance FFS n° 4 : « pilotage en loi dégradée (effet de buffeting).
Evolutions en loi alternate ».
o QT A320 : séance FFS n° 7 : « Reconnaissance préventive et contre-mesure de
l’approche du décrochage. DEMONSTRATION STALL WARNING ». La
procédure STALL en vigueur était celle de décembre 1999.


Note globale : les QT additionnelles A330 et A340 n’abordent que les différences par rapport aux

QT
déjà obtenues sur les autres types (A320, A330, A340).
Check the bold stances ......
Do you see the difference or I must explain ?

The date for the issue of the report was chosen by the BEA and I would have thought they could have factored in the time needed for the simultaneous issue of an authoritative translation.
I will be not so certain ....
Don't forget some politic pressures .....

Last edited by jcjeant; 30th Jul 2011 at 10:45.
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Old 30th Jul 2011, 10:47
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There isn't much communication in those 3 mins. One gap lasts 25 seconds which seems an age give the situation.
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Old 30th Jul 2011, 11:19
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Early opportunity to climb

During the brieffing:

"Les deux copilotes discutent encore de la température et du REC MAX. Les turbulences augmentent légèrement et ils décident de prévenir l’équipage de cabine de l’entrée dans une zone plus turbulente. Le copilote de droite dit qu’ils sont « apparemment à la limite de la couche », avant de rajouter qu’il aurait préféré monter au FL 360. Accéder à un niveau supérieur est une préoccupation constante de l’équipage. Les pilotes désirent visiblement évoluer en dehors de la couche, probablement pour limiter les turbulences". (3rd interim report, page 75)

Could it be the reason why a reflex of the PF was to climb (violently) when the A/P and A/THR went off, and when he got the commands ? (note that it is the PNF who told the PF to reduce the VS and stabilize the altitude). When the AF 447 climbed to FL 375, no one in the cockpit seemed concerned by the RECMAX anymore.
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Old 30th Jul 2011, 11:35
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Cool

Hi,

Another fact .. (from the interim N°3)
The PF was not belted
The PNF was partialy belted
All this when they know (and they advise the cabin personnel about) they will have some more turbulences .. and anyways they are cruising in a possible turbulent aera ..
Seem's they were very relax on the flight deck .....
How can the PF be accurate with stick if his body is free ...

Accéder à un niveau supérieur est une préoccupation constante de l’équipage. Les pilotes désirent visiblement évoluer en dehors de la couche, probablement pour limiter les turbulences"
Climb for avoid turbulent zone (in CB aera) ? and possibly go more near the coffin corner ?
Seem's to me a bad solution ... the best seem's to change heading ...
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Old 30th Jul 2011, 11:52
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hyperveloce, perhaps a pre-disposition, but then there seems to be little coordination between the two of them.

Le bruit de fond change rapidement vers 2 h 09 min 46. Ce changement de bruit de fond a été identifié comme pouvant être caractéristique de la présence de cristaux de glace mais ne donne lieu à aucun commentaire particulier de l’équipage, le phénomène étant très peu connu des pilotes à l’époque. Le PNF prend alors l’initiative de diminuer le Mach vers 0,8 et les antigivrages moteurs sont enclenchés.
No conversation about the ice crystals, and its the PNF who takes the initiative to reduce Mach and turn the anti-ice on. Not only had the PF apparently never flown with the captain before this flight, but I am thinking he hadn't flown before with the PNF. Strangers in the cockpit at a difficult time and inopportune moment.
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Old 30th Jul 2011, 12:13
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Cool

Hi,

Strangers in the cockpit at a difficult time and inopportune moment.
It's seem's that is one more stranger for those 3 strangers ... the plane ....
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Old 30th Jul 2011, 12:23
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Not only had the PF apparently never flown with the captain before this flight, but I am thinking he hadn't flown before with the PNF.
This is a common occurence at any large airline.
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Old 30th Jul 2011, 12:29
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Originally Posted by jcjeant
It's seem's that is one more stranger for those 3 strangers ... the plane ....
Oh, *do* give it a rest with your "strange aircraft" and dark murmurings of "politic pressures", whatever that's supposed to mean. Aside from the pitots, nothing was wrong with that aircraft. It was a bad situation and mistakes were made, that was all. Now we need to know how those mistakes (in which I include the lack of expediting pitot repairs) came about.
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Old 30th Jul 2011, 13:03
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I think the French Transcript is not reflecting properly the tone/intonation of the voice in that particular section, and perhaps in others as well.

"tu montes" is an acknowledgment of the situation, what the action of the PF drives the plane to do.

I am quite sure the "tu descend" should be "tu descend!!!" as an "imperative", a recommendation, an order.

It must be related to attitude. Practically, the PNF is saying "you're NOSE UP", so "GET THE NOSE DOWN"...

From what I could sense, the PNF is somewhat unpatient, with the way the PF controls the stick, while he is also trying to help, guiding him. It's clear he is not realizing the effects that this is going to have a minute or so later.

Originally Posted by DozyWannabe
...And tellingly, the Captain says :

One question for our Gallic cousins - do I interpret "Tu montes" and "Tu descends descends" as literally climb and descend, or could the PNF be referring to attitude (nose-up/nose-down) here?

[EDIT : Corrected Captain's statement - thanks for the catch! ]
With the realization that the French only version is creating certain limitations, the new report may help, in case one didn't come to that conclusion earlier.

The "a/c to pilot information interface" - my words - is part of the "a/c category" of elements that BEA document points to among contributing factors, and recommends to be addressed.

Originally Posted by DozyWannabe
... Aside from the pitots, nothing was wrong with that aircraft. ....

Last edited by airtren; 30th Jul 2011 at 14:24.
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Old 30th Jul 2011, 13:20
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jcjean,
Do you see the difference or I must explain ?
No I don't need you to, as you're demonstrating, in the cosy comfort of your computer room that you are not able to interpret a set of informations :
The two *biographies* refer to both co-pilots and, this is news to you :
Contrarily to what everyone thought, the PF, on the RHS was the younger and the less experienced pilot on board.
( see pages 11 to 16 of the report on experience and position in the flight deck )
That's the reason for the BEA recommendation about new SOPs for cockpit task attribution when Captain is resting.
So, Mister, would you have solved , without much information the situation these pilots were facing ? in view of your performance in reading / understanding a simple text, may I be allowed to doubt it ?
Further more, wouldn't a bit of respect and humility be in order ?
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Old 30th Jul 2011, 13:33
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How can the PF be accurate with stick if his body is free ...
Sounds like a question for someone like PJ2, to give a neutral appraisal of how difficult a task this might be, and in Alt Law too, so that basic protections are lost
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Old 30th Jul 2011, 13:34
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Concur with your observations.

The "silent THS move and max position" is an important issue part of the "a/c to pilot information interface".

It's true they could have corrected the THS position manually, had they been aware of that factor being involved, which puts a light on the training of the very basic "principles, and elements of flight control".

Originally Posted by HarryMann
Has anyone else gained the impression that PF actions, appear to assume 'Normal' law ? - despite acknowledgements of Alternate reversion soon after the AP disconnect sequence.

....
Let us also not forget that the 'silent & unobserved' Alternate Law THS movement - undoubtedly a big factor in the stability of the stalled pitch attitude, requiring large ND for long periods (many tens of seconds) to overcome...

I am glad the BEA have reported their concerns over this unfortunate oversight.

Last edited by airtren; 30th Jul 2011 at 13:56.
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Old 30th Jul 2011, 13:36
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Apologies-my reading of the French language isn't up to it- can someone advise when was the first indication that the Captain appreciated their loss of altitude and continuing descent ?
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Old 30th Jul 2011, 13:47
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Auto trim question

Does the auto trim follow stick inputs?

Stabilizer at 13º aft can limit forward stick inputs?

BEA report says all control surfaces movement were consistent with pilot inputs. But why trim stays "locked" at 13º all the way down?

Some aircraft are almost impossible to control pitch with full aft stabilizers.
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Old 30th Jul 2011, 13:54
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Originally Posted by JD-EE
That may require just a whole lot of large disk space for fully readable displays from about ceiling height mid console. Decent HD width video requires about 100 megabits per second or more. Poor quality is about 13 megabits/second. Displays may be visible and gross features may be readable. ...
There could be a separation between "screens video" and "cockpit video", as the 7x7 inch screen's digital info can be collected directly from the computers, as opposed through a video camera, and the cockpit video then at lower resolution should be OK.
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Old 30th Jul 2011, 14:04
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This is a common occurence at any large airline.
Agree. But in this instance, the PF was returning from holiday in Brazil with his wife. I have no knowledge of how AF does crew scheduling, but unless split rotations for pilots low in the pecking order are fairly common, his presence on the flight deck might indicate he was pressed into service late.
______________________________________________
From Boeing,



This image depicts a cross-section view as an airplane is headed for a nonclassic convective system. During a typical ice crystal engine event, the airplane will be flying in convective cloud with light radar returns at flight level. However, if the pilot uses the radar tilt function to scan below the airplane, moderate to heavy radar returns will be seen. These are regions to avoid because they are associated with regions of HIWC [High Ice Water Content].
Soon after 0135,
le copilote modifie l’échelle de son ND de 320 NM à 160 NM et constate qu’« il y a un truc droit devant », qui fait sans doute référence à des échos détectés par le radar météo. Le commandant de bord confirme et l’équipage discute à nouveau du fait que la température élevée ne leur permet pas de monter au niveau 370.
The radar was left in CAL mode.

At 0208
Vers 2 h 08, le copilote de gauche, sans doute après avoir vu des échos détectés par le radar météo, propose d’« altérer un peu à gauche ». Le mode HDG est activé et le cap sélecté diminue de 12 ° par rapport à la route. Le copilote de gauche passe le réglage de gain du radar météo au maximum, après s’être aperçu qu’il était en mode calibré. La discussion est interrompue par une sensation d’augmentation de température et l’apparition d’une odeur à propos desquels les pilotes échangent pendant plus d’une minute. Le copilote de gauche identifie cette odeur comme étant celle de l’ozone.
Radar changed from CAL to MAX, but no reference to changing the tilt.
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Old 30th Jul 2011, 14:07
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A33Zab what means "vitesse vertical selecte" also s.114 3 values? only 2 (ADR or IR)
no, I mean the green line one position higher with the unit [FT/MIN] overlaying in the beginning the VITESSE VERTICAL, than moving to +5000 and later back to zerro and --5000......
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Old 30th Jul 2011, 14:15
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most of the matters are now self evident,however after reading all of this its clear the PF's status as impaired from early on and 'twas unrecognised.

1.... distrustfull of the Artificial Horizon at a time when it was his only reliable indication apart from altitude.
2. Degrading into spatial disorientation, under psychological pressure, whilst unfortunately retaining control of the aircraft. The saddest part was the Pf's comment that "it feels fast", which ,if one was repeatedly pulling back on the controls to slow the aircraft, sounds very somatogravic....
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