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Airbus 320 loss of FDs and Flaps position for Go Around.

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Airbus 320 loss of FDs and Flaps position for Go Around.

Old 29th Sep 2010, 20:27
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Question Airbus 320 loss of FDs and Flaps position for Go Around.

Hi to everybody.I have two questions of Airbus 320 that i was wondering to know...

In wich situations are we going to lose the FD's? I know the failures but not the main reason...In 320 i know we are losing with IR 1+2 fault and ADR1+2 fault and in Elec emer.config .The thing is that i want to know the reason why we are losing the guidance....Is the same reason in the 330?
Another question that is getting me crazy is the position with the flaps in the go around phase...The book just says retract one step but some people is telling me in the training from 3 you must to put 1...without overweight Someone can explain me that? I know that in take off is like that from 3 to 1 but not in landing....and there are some instructors that are telling me that is totally wrong my procedure....Thanks
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Old 29th Sep 2010, 20:34
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Hi Miramar,

You always retract the flaps one stage during the go-around, even during landing in Config 3, ie you would go from Config 3 to Config 2. (See FCOM 4.05.80 - Task Sharing During Go-Around)

I think the confusion may stem from the fact that during normal acceleration after take-off you would go from Config 3 to Config 1. This is not the case during the go-around however.
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Old 29th Sep 2010, 20:41
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Thanks for your answer with the flaps....yeah the problem is that i guess they are mixing the g/a position with the take off position....
I tried to talk with the instructors about that but without listening are telling me that im wrong....even showing to them the fcom 3 where says that....

Well...i hope someone can help me with the other question.Thanks.
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Old 29th Sep 2010, 21:11
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Flight directors need a reference input to produce an order from ,so robbing them of attitude,heading ,altitude and speed information basically stops them from their computation process.
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Old 30th Sep 2010, 04:32
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Flaps retraction

The flap retraction schedule is one step up every time. This step is based on the way the flap lever is designed by Airbus.

Next time you sit in the cockpit on the ground, take flap levers to FULL and then try retracting them. The lever will first stop at flaps 3 position and then you will have to again lift up the lever and take it forward. Now it will stop at the flaps 1 position. It is designed not to stop at Flaps 2. Now you will have to lift up the lever again and retract flaps to 0.

Now when you sit in a flying aircraft, look at the F speed for Flaps 2 and Flaps 3. The F speed is the same for both positions. So when you are doing Flap retraction from Flaps 3 on schedule, there is no reason to stop at Flaps 2 and then get to Flaps 1.

The one step up which Airbus refers to is the step of the Flap lever position the way it is designed and not Flaps 3 to 2 to 1.

So what your instructor is telling you is correct. Retract Flaps from 3 to 1 every time.

Also, refer to the normal operating procedures for Takeoff in the QRH.

AT F SPEED

FLAPS 1 ......... ORDER

So, whether you do a Flaps 3 or Flaps 2 Takeoff, the retraction schedule is Flaps 1. This is also applicable to GA phase. Retract one step means, from Flaps full to flaps 3 and from Flaps 3 to flaps 1.
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Old 30th Sep 2010, 09:10
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Hi Miramar,

You are correct.

On the GA you raise the Flaps 1 step i.e. From Full to F3, or from F3 to F2.
You will be in SRS mode where the GA speed is controlled to "The SRS law maintains the current speed at Go-around engagement or VAPP, whichever is higher. Nevertheless, the SRS speed target is limited to VLS + 25 knots in both engine configurations, and VLS + 15 knots in engine-out."

After AA, SRS changes to CLB or OPEN CLB, you will be accelerating towards clean speed and the Flaps may be raised to the next gated position in one movement to F1. edit (for both Take Off and GA procedures) end edit

In the QRH Overweight Landing check list - it specifically instructs the non standard flap selection from F3 to 1+F for the GA. Don't confuse the two procedures - as some pilots / instructors have.

Last edited by rudderrudderrat; 30th Sep 2010 at 11:17. Reason: extra text
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Old 30th Sep 2010, 10:57
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Thanks to all of you guys for the answers...Like you said in the QRH is making a difference: 2.29 OVERWEIGHT LANDING PROCEDURE

In all cases if landing configuration is different from flap full use conf 1+F for go around....only for overweight procedures....

Flying Solo the you are talking about take off position in the Qrh, in go around is difference: textual words from the FCOM 3 and QRH:
Retract One Step...is not saying in any place retract from 3 to 1.

Anyway i think its a interesting topic to talk about....Its hard for me to say to the instructors that are wrong in their procedures...

Any Idea about the Lose of FD's?? thanks a lot guys
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Old 30th Sep 2010, 17:56
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Miramar.

Flap retraction on a G/A is most certainly only one step (from FULL to 3 or from 3 to 2). Get your instructors (and Flyingsolo!) to look at section 5 (in-flight performance) of FCOM 3 where they will find go-around charts for Conf. 2 and 3 only. Conf 1 go-arounds do not feature in any normal procedures.
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Old 2nd Oct 2010, 06:56
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Max Angle thanks a lot for the answer i checked already about the tables for conf 2 and 3 in normal conditions...as you said.If is overweight landing is another history.
Thanks all of you guys for the answers,anyone know about the FD'S?? thaanks
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Old 2nd Oct 2010, 15:03
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anyone know about the FD'S??
Tubby Linton gave the answer in post #4.
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Old 3rd Oct 2010, 09:14
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These answers all assume you go around in config full. But there is an exception to the retract the flap rule:
If you G/A earlier in the approach whilst in conf. 1 or 2, DO NOT retract the flaps one step. Otherwise you will find yourself flying well below S or green dot.
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Old 3rd Oct 2010, 12:17
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Hi Alt Crz Green,

Very true. But you should be above your AA (ours is now 1,000 ft default) in those configurations. Therefore, simply pull Open Climb to accelerate towards clean speeds, or do the discontinued approach as appropriate.

Last edited by rudderrudderrat; 3rd Oct 2010 at 12:31. Reason: extra text
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Old 4th Oct 2010, 11:03
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I suggest you first go TOGA and back to CLB.
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Old 4th Oct 2010, 14:17
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cant follow the open climb method like rudderrat suggested? thanks.
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Old 5th Oct 2010, 00:50
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rudderrudderrat
Unfortunately we still accelerate at 3,000' aal so it's quite likely a g/a will be executed below accel alt. So if I g/a between 3000' aal and 1500 aal' (at 1500' aal I will still only be in conf 2) I put thrust levers to TOGA, call "go around, don't touch the flaps" and immediately put the thrust levers back to CLB. It works well.

cant follow the open climb method like rudderrat suggested? thanks.
If you're below the alt selected in the window and you pull alt, you will get open clb mode and climb to the selected altitude at the selected or managed speed. This works fine most of the time in terms of power, however it won't engage the go-around procedure in the FMS. To do so you need to have hit TOGA. Therefore it's recommended to hit TOGA with the thrust levers regardless of how much power you require. If you don't require TOGA power, put the levers momentarily to TOGA then immediately back to CLB.
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Old 5th Oct 2010, 07:01
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Exactly.
Besides that you will sequence the previously flown approach at the end of the missed approach procedure.

add: Technical considerations
On the Airbus Fly By Wire (FBW) aircraft, the common Go Around
flight guidance modes of the Auto Flight System (AFS) are triggered
by setting the thrust levers to TOGA.


If the crew decides to go around and fails to set TOGA, the AFS status
will depend on the type of approach:

-
For an ILS approach,
the A/P remains engaged in the currently selected AFS mode


-
For a managed Non Precision
Approach
(FINAL APP), the AFS remains in FINAL APP mode.
Disengage the Autopilot 50 ft below minimum and revert to the basic
modes (depending on Mod Status)

- For a fully or partially selected NPA,
the A/P remains engaged in the selected mode.

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Old 5th Oct 2010, 09:45
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Hi Alt Crz Green,

TOGA is not always appropriate.

What would you do at AMS when established on the ILS 18C, and told to GA at 2,000 feet? (GA Alt = 1500 feet until 5 miles beyond the runway),
or at Nice when doing the Riviera Approach 04L when you have to break off at minimums at 2,000 ft? (GA Alt = 2,000 ft)

Our FMGCs will sequence the GA flight plan without selecting TOGA. Activating the secondary will recall the approach again (if copied earlier obviously).

Last edited by rudderrudderrat; 5th Oct 2010 at 11:28. Reason: GA flight plan sequence
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Old 8th Oct 2010, 17:56
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hmm...

thats not what it says in the book....

"if TOGA thrust is not req. during a go-around for any reason, e.g. an early go-around ordered by ATC, it is essential that thrust levers are set momentarily but without delay, to the TOGA detent, to ensure the proper go-around mode activation, and to sequence the flight plan.

if this is not done :
- AFS descent/approach/landing mode will remain engaged
- the destination airfield will be sequenced and the primary flt plan
will become 'PPOS-DISCONT'.."

so basically, if u wanna go-around early, just put TOGA and then back to climb detent, then pull speed to green dot if u wanna accelerate, or just leave as it is if u are in config 1, and wanna stay in the same config to be sequence for the next approach.... and dont forget to activate approach phase again...
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Old 8th Oct 2010, 19:02
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Our SOP has three..
Discon (use V/S), g/a from inter alt (click, click!) and nornmal g/a.

You don't use TOGA for a discon.
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Old 9th Oct 2010, 16:14
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Hi,

"In wich situations are we going to lose the FD's? I know the failures but not the main reason...In 320 i know we are losing with IR 1+2 fault and ADR1+2 fault and in Elec emer.config .The thing is that i want to know the reason why we are losing the guidance....Is the same reason in the 330 "

among other things exposed here before there is one reason to lose the FD's in all msn's on A 320 if you are flyin manual if the AUTOMATIC SPEED MODE PROTECTION is activated this protection is active in CLIMB, OP CLIMB or DES, OP DES when you reach VMAX+4 or VLS-2 and the FD's desengaged and reverts to SPPED and no lateral and vertical modes.

I hope this helps.

toby320
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