DGCA Expat Phase-Out

[411A]

so maybe just maybe the true reason is that there are not enough Indian Commanders to replace the expats.....and safety should be paramount....

Quite likely.
In this reasoned way, largish smoking holes are eliminated.

Who cares if the young'uns complain?
They don't run the show...if fact, they don't run anything.
Nothing but whine...whine....whine.

[xuejiesandi]

well my trouble is not expats here...my trouble is being an expat...I will add my name to advocating expats in India the day I'll be allowed to be an expat in foreign countries...(European, American & others)...till then expats go work in your places....

[HAWK21M]

Was reading the posts on this thread.

Although I'm from Maintenance.I can relate to the posters on Passion for the job & the struggle to achieve ones goal,honestly & with hard work.

At times the system around you makes things difficult to follow ones policy which is correct.The folks doing that end up slowing their progress,but personally I rather be slow & struggle but learn the basics & build a strong foundation.

[pilotara]

As long as companies expand and the need for experience pilots is there , expats will always have a job. 250 and 550 hour pilots coming from flying cessnas getting their multi engine rating in the sim of a 737 or A320 its not safe. I fly in india and i have flown with guys that have been in the right seat for 2 years but the only thing they do is ...paperwork. Companies need experience pilots not wannabes. I have watched crews (majority Indians) coming on board of the plane 5-10 mins prior to schedule departure, no walk around no check list basically a very unsafe environment.
CRM is non existed and maintenance is getting better but still not up to the highest of standards. Indian Aviation is young and there is a lot of potential here .
Indian pilots work in a lot of companies outside india as expats (Qatar, Emirates, etc etc) and its ok for them but once they come back in India expats must go !!! In india everything is a copy of the western world. They want to be ''white'' gora as they say, the have copied every US or European show and lifestyle.
If expat pilots leave from India , the salaries of the local pilots will get reduced and they don't seem to get it. Indians cannot be trusted (my opinion) and I discovered that from the first month i came to India ''if you see a snake and an Indian on the street who would you kill first'' it was the phrase everyone told me to remember. Everything is about putting a show but when it comes to get things done the cannot comply....There is no airmanship and Indian Captains are apparently God's gift to aviation from personal experience even if they are wrong they will never admitted.
My contract comes to an end and despite the extension DGCA approved I have a lot of doubts about renewing it. I am doing contracts for few years now and I have to say that India has a long way to go.......Maybe one day !!!
Keep the blue side up and be safe

[Dragon 83]

Well the reality is such that many of us here four years will apparently not get renewals. Not certain why the 4 year thing is in place.

Ironically some new type rated expats are being processed behind us which make no sense whatever.

[NGFellow]

A320/B777/B737NG Expat Capts at AI/9W/SG/Indigo/KF etc. If your contract/FATA is not being renewed or you just want to leave there is an opportunity with Turkish Airlines for DEC positions. The opportunity is being listed by WASINC and some other agencies as well. Contract is directly with the airline for 1 year (renewable). T&C's are ok, but you are closer to home.

[xuejiesandi]

why don't they make it all open...a pilot should be able to get work anywhere...as pilotara says European & Americans are better than us then just make it open so Indians can go & learn the HARD WAY...by finding small work...in the field..I don't wanna upset anyone..I agree you guys might have more experience as compare to some Indian pilots...but fact is they never had the oppertunity.

People here also have a right to fulfill their wishes or at least to work for it...GA is non-existent...so what must an Indian newbie do??? wait till he's old enough to let his medical expires..because as I see GORAs can go work wherever they please so in the end with more experience but Indians can't seem to find work anywhere...people prefer to kill their ambitions before the snakes...

Now till the time..it doesn't happen I guess you'll find complains & also repulsion to a certain extent. I'm an Expat..working outside..& I tell you every time I'm told to get a visa even to go & find work...it pains..& for Americans, Europeans its just go...dish out CVs & find work...am I not human enough to even get a chance to try???

[privateer01]

Speaking as an Expat......and having lived in various countries.......

Its really sucks for the up and coming pilots. (from any country)

Because with experience and a few type ratings (and flight hrs on those type ratings) you can really pick and choose where you want to work.

A Visa in just about any country is easier with a sponsor. (USA included)

Without a business sponsor....its damn near improbable.

With 250 - 500 hrs.....no one wants to give you a chance much less a sponsorship

Sad fact is Indian companies are sponsoring expats.

The Indian companies have convinced cajoled or cashed the appropriate people and the government issues work visas.

If the situation in Europe or the USA were reversed.....there would be companies sponsoring visas in both places.

[xuejiesandi]

Very well said privateer,

If one is free to work & find work everywhere...there shouldn't be any complains...I would like to travel & like to be allowed to work everyplace... that is if I deserve...if my level of expertise permits...

I said earlier, as an Indian I don't mind anyone from anywhere coming here & working, as long as I'm not being paralyzed by some unfavorable entry requirements... in these conditions we do not have the opportunity to gain necessary GA experience..as there's no GA

Everyone's welcome as long as they welcome us...

[pilotara]

Where are you not welcome..... there Indians working all over the world. Don;t take it personally but a 250 hour pilot regardless of his nationality he is not suitable and safe behind an airplane such as B737, A320 etc etc. Get an instructor rating , instruct build time get experience.
When I was starting it took me 6 years before i get my first job as a airline pilot...and i was a foreigner too plus 9-11 plus my darker complexion etc etc...I did not expected a job with 250 hours. had to get to 2000 befor i get an interview !
I respected guys with more experience than me and i tried to pick their brains and learn....and I can care less of the nationality a well trained and experienced pilot is an ASSET for a company !!! instead of complaining about expats maybe you should see how you can better your self as an aviator and pay your dues like everyone else. Nothing comes easy in this line of work my friend and if you think i am harsh I am sorry but reality is tough !!! You want my advise, get an instructor rating and a college degree (if you don't have one), make your self more marketable and BELIEVE me your time will come !!!
And my friend GORA's cannot go and work anywhere they want and as they please......they have to be experienced. I am sure you don't see 250 hour GORA's working in India.. They all have alot of years of experience and thousands of hours.

Be safe

[rdr]

in my previous post, i did put the blame squarely on the authorities such as the DGCA, MOCA, Aviation Minister, politicians, press, babus.....etc, who dont have a clue about the industry. well the truth is....they still dont. how does a nation evolve a master blueprint to cater for this most specialised everchanging science. from general aviation, to airports, flying training schools, proper maintainence, a system of auditing at all levels.......a whole mind boggling array of specialisation to ensure a workable and SAFE environment for the benefit of all its citizens ?? the situation is lumbering along as well as it should, warts and all. the truth is that it is just a few people, with links to aviation, IPL, politics, underworld, money laundering, who are taking the entire country for a daily ride. the rest dance for them.

nothing will firstly improve until there is a reduction of corruption, nepotism, (like AI cancelling flights at the whim of a ministers daughter, and proudly justifying it as a commercial requirement), self interest and, basic down to goodness GREED. if at all, there is some improvement here, and there is a serious attempt to set things right, the industry will still need expat help. its not the skills which are lacking, but the mindset which has to CHANGE.

i do emphatise with the many who face a dead end as far as their careers are concerned. i do not believe its forever, but, a system which refuses to allow improvement or change, so one safe guards his own territory at any cost, needs to be cleaned up.

[xuejiesandi]

pilotara

I respect the amount of effort & hard work you've done to build brick by brick..but please understand this..we Indians are not anyway less keen to work (of course with a few exceptions, that I'm quite sure would be available even in your demography)...

I have an Instructor rating..I would like to work & build hours..but where??? USA?? Australia?? Europe???...I said I'm an expat..I'm trying to work wherever I can...I'm not sitting home & waiting for Expats to move, so that all FOs can move to left & place can be vacant for me (It made me feel good though for a moment there )...I know that can't happen till I, myself have enough slogging...

Trust me!! no one here at least me of all ain't denying the importance of hard work...but please consider the situation..you (I dont mean you in person) wake up a day buy an air ticket show up on immigration & end-up getting three months inside a country...how about me??? I have to find supporting documents, show hotel reservations, invitation letters, bank account details..& a return ticket...then I get one month touring permit. which screams NO EMPLOYMENT...how do I work?? I would love to have 3000 hours before applying for anything more than 10 seater...but where do I get those 3000 hours???

I totally buy your & everyone advocating expats point...I would love them to sit left..but please lemme go to your places & gain some GA hours....If not than I'll shout, crib...whatever it takes to put bread on my table....

[drive73]

I think the thing you guys who want to work in the US, UK, AUS and so on is, there are no jobs. Even for highly qualified people. How can you expect to be an expat in a country who has a depressed aviation industry. The reason expats are in India and China, Korea is because they have rapidly growing aviation industries, with no general aviation for time building.
You better start looking at places like Africa if you want to build time. If you think waiting for the aviation industry in the US to turn around you will be waiting for awhile.
Expat is supply and demand driven, no demand no job. Look for places who have demand. It may be in something small, probably in a crappy part of the world and may be a little dangerous, but this is what time building is. Good luck and have fun..

[xuejiesandi]

drive73

I was just mentioning a few name...didn't mean to point any specific place...Interestingly even if there was demand..still its tougher for us to go work there than other way round...

[drive73]

Your still missing the point. It is hard because there is no demand. There are plenty of Indians working in the US, UK and other countries. They work in fields who have demand, like medical, technical. India is incredibly hard to work as an expat in fields that don't have demand, logistically impossible. You need to understand there is more going on in the world than aviation.
Only a very few get through life without paying dues. You may not get a job for 5, 10 years in your 737, this puts you ahead of most of us who didn't see a jet until we had 4, 5 thousand hours or more. The biggest thing missing flying with Indian F/o's is I have nothing to talk to them about. They have no life experience, no flight stories from previous jobs. When they turned 20 they were hired on at XXX airline and thats it. So go to Africa or somewhere where demand for instructors and pilots is high, gain some life and flight experience so when you do get hired, we can swap stories and laugh about all the times we just about died.. Be patient your time will come if you just keep focused and stop worrying about things you can't control.

[xuejiesandi]

drive73

I ain't missing it..you probably trying to tell me what I must do...rather thinking why am I (as in me) not doing it...I don't mean any offense; I value your advice..but what makes you think that I haven't done that already...

No way I'm suggesting that you're wrong..my point is, out of 10, at least 7 would know that they'll have to work hard..Indians included...there is a pretty strong reason they're not doing it...they're not able to by biased entry requirements..that's the reason you see uncomfortableness & complains... please try & understand rather painting them as brats...

[Capt Apache]

@xuejiesandi

I think I know what you are getting at...Your unedited post did make a lot more sense.

Here we go.Is it really the recession or something else.
H1-B visas lose charm as recession stalks US- Hindustan Times

In addition, this intensified scrutiny extended to US airports where those with H1Bs, especially from India, were entering the country.

Hmm...

[drive73]

I never painted them as brats. I only stated I have nothing in common with them. They don't have life or aviation experience. Only a very few are arrogant and spoiled, like anywhere else in the world.
You still are missing it.. There will never be expats in the US, UK, Aus. There is no demand, we have so many qualified pilots and a general aviation industry to grow more. India sends home more money from the US, UK, and many other countries, than any other nation on this planet. 1 in 6 doctors in the US is Indian. The reason they are working in the US is we need them. There aren't enouph qualified medical personel in the US. This is the way it works in any country. Do you find any 250hr US expats in the right seat of the 737 in India? Do you think it would be easy for this 250 hr person to get a job in India? Are there US flight instructors in India? Far more doors are open to Indians in other countries than India opens for other countries. India has taken more jobs due to outsourcing than just about any other country. There are millions without jobs in the US who would be more than happy to have there call center jobs back. This is why people don't feel real bad if 2000 expats come to India and send some money home. This is a global world now and you have sectors which open in other countries to you and you have sectors that open up to other countries. It has never and never will be a free for all. Look outside of aviation and see just how much Indians benefit from work and working abroad, as well as how many jobs are created from outside India companies.

[fullforward]

Reality check

Botom line: everywhere in the world, there are thousands of youngsters who dream about being an airline pilot.
But, at certain point one have to realise that they simply can't afford that, for many different reasons, the main of course is simply market laws.

So why spend precious time and money (usually father's) on pursuing a dream that have very dim chances to come true? Aviation career, except for a few lucky ones, is plenty of frustrations and have been losing a big part of its charm and 'package value' it had in the past.
Why not go to a prestige University, have a good degree on Engineering (India have a strong requirement for infrastructure for the next 50 years at least); or Medicine, IT or being a good lawyer?

Trust me, there are thousands of pilots all over the world that deeply regret for pursuing this career. Just check what happened with this industry in the latest 20 years. And there's no signs of any improvement in the foreseable future.
Don't limit your options, life is much more than get strapped on a shiny jet.

[drive73]

Apache this is a good article. I wish we had some numbers on how many visa's India allows for foriegn workers?