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Old 4th Nov 2009, 08:02
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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FYI, for those of you considering Shenzhen Airlines. WASINC is just a conduit, remember that. They do what the airline says and have limited power.

On the flip side, those of us that have been here for a while are finding out that our contracts, and yours, are worth less than the paper they are written on. To explain let me quote the contract:

"
2. The parties also acknowledge that if CONTRACTOR fails to submit ninety (90) days prior
notice to SHENZHEN AIRLINES and WASINC INTERNATIONAL, SHENZHEN
AIRLINES and WASINC INTERNATIONAL would be damaged since it would not be
enough period to find a replacement for CONTRACTOR.
3. The parties acknowledge and agree that damages associated with such types of early
termination are too difficult to ascertain.
4. ACCORDINGLY, the parties agree as follows;
A. Early termination of the assignment shall be subject to the charge of Liquidated
Damage payment;
B. If CONTRACTOR resigns after the assignment to SHENZHEN AIRLINES, or if
WASINC INTERNATIONAL terminates CONTRACTOR for Cause,

CONTRACTOR shall pay WASINC INTERNATIONAL the following sum"

Dependant on your contract the penalties are differnet but the bottom line is that Shenzhen Airlines IS NOT HONORING THE CONTRACT SHOULD YOU LEAVE AND WANT TO GO TO ANOTHER CHINESE CARRIER! They are charging you 400,000 Yuan for "Training, admin and finders fees". Although this is totally illegal, they are not letting anyone leave with a "LETTER OF GOOD STANDING" so you can pursue other options....

One or two guys have completed the entire contract and Shenzhen would not give a release letter to them. They are forced to sign another contract with Shenzhen or leave China to search for another job.

I am not just another pissed off pilot; I've tried to stay fair and not bitch and moan; I've tried to give everyone an honest opinion of this place. Read your contract, ask questions, ask about the "release letter" at contract completion (why isnt it in your contract that you will get one?), where is the signiture for shenzhen? (why isnt it there), how am I suppose to pay my bills in America if the $$ you give me goes to a Chinese Bank? (some guys are illegally exchanging thier Yuan in cash and taking it across the border to Hong kong and dep. it in thier HSBC account), ask who has been able to wire money out of China and if you can speak with them about the process, if you need to terminate your contract via the legal and binding verbage in your contract, will you or wont you get a letter and why!, if you leave early will you owe training costs (this is turning out to be true even if you leave at the end of your contract), Ask about paying for your own simulator training should you have a hard landing or get pulled off line for other reasons. No pilot at shenzhen is getting more than 2000 yuan a month for fuel bonuses and even that number declines every month as the re-adjust the math to suit the financial needs of the comany; bottom line is dont count on it.

If they are not involved in the processes at Shenzhen then who are they representing and why arent they able to answer your questions....

They've even required pilots to set up accounts in Hong Kong and lie about thier profession (I have the email!). When the first group of pilots went over there, they refused to tell them that they were "Toy Salesmen"...yea, I said that right...Toy salesmen. That completely fell through as well as them asking us to buy illegal receipts from the secretary (at 1% of the face value) at Shenzhen so the airline could turn it into the goverment.

This crap is so crazy that there is no way I could make this up.....dont get me wrong, its better than not having a job but it pays to know who and what you are dealing with before you come over here...it is not easy.

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Old 4th Nov 2009, 13:52
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smoke and mirrors

yes, wasinc is just a conduit and they are good at playing the smoke and mirrors game. you sign a contract with their hong kong shell company which is just a PO box for collecting money, then DR and ST funnel the money away to america. If you have any dispute, they are in america and it's a different corporation so good luck at disputing anything. your contract is just with a shell company with a PO box in hong kong, not with shenzhen, not with the real wasinc, just smoke and mirrors. everybody new coming over here says hey can I get a copy of the contract so I can look over it? well don't waste your time, the contract is about as valuable as toilet paper. wasinc doesn't follow the contract, and chinese airlines won't follow the contract. the only reason they pay you is because they want you to come back the next month. reembursements, or any other promises like bonouses or vacation pay, forget it. been there, done that. not a rumor.
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Old 7th Nov 2009, 05:38
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Exclamation Shenzhen Airlines

FYI if you are looking to come to Shenzhen Airlines please contact me directly for any and every detail you need. I have been here for 3 years, an American, my wife will fill you in on all family questions, school, life style.

There are two contractors Wasinc International and FRI. I would suggest you research both extensively before signing anything. I would prefer FRI over Wasinc. International, personal reasons. There are very strict rules with the CAAC goverment and the airlines. You may email directly and I will be happy to discuss any specific questions with you.

Not everything is in the writing of the contracts. Careful!!!
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Old 7th Nov 2009, 05:43
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Exclamation

Try Parc Aviation? Shanghai? Remember once you sign on with a chinese carrier that is the only one you will ever work for unless you have 50k to 80k maybe more to pay each airline for a release letter!!!! UP to you.....
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Old 7th Nov 2009, 05:45
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Exclamation

Careful about Shenzhen Airlines contractor Wasinc. READ EVERYTHING carefully and the questions about release letters.....
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Old 7th Nov 2009, 13:15
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WASInc

everybody, if you have another option, please stay away from WASInc....just one more voice confirming what is was allready said...good luck
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Old 12th Nov 2009, 12:46
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Talking If you want to work in China..!!

Wow, many good posts here on China in this Shenzhen thread...! Good Work..! Shenzhen is a nice place, almost western style. Working in China is a strange game, normally when you go in through your Rep., you are so far in you can't get out and hopefully you are on the right track. The reason is it takes months from the time you start until you are flying the line in China. Be careful and make sure you check with your friends to make sure your agency is taking care of you. The good news is, China is hot and time to make some money men..!!!!

Good luck,

On Final

Here some more information on China you can check out with these links :

http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far...ml#post5312356

http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far...ml#post4517933

http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far...ml#post4517941

Last edited by On Final; 12th Nov 2009 at 13:00.
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Old 16th Nov 2009, 23:34
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Payment in China????

One bad person's experience with an agency becomes everyone's RULE.
Then READ BELOW!

Old 4th November 2009, 04:59 #82 (permalink)
fly_fly
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Thumbs down wasinc - stay away from them
do your homework before considering wasinc.
they are good on the phone and good at getting you to sign up but then leave you stranded and don't follow through. then they don't return phone calls or emails. they still owe me over $10,000 from the end of a contract. airline paid them, they kept the money. do your research, I'm not the only one. this is not I've heard or somebody told me, this is first hand experience and has happened to some other guys I know.
stay away from wasinc.



This is right out of the horses mouth. I have heard loads of things about China. If you have US dollars in your account saved, you have a hard time taken it out of China. Airlines in China have penalties for any misdemeanor, etc.
I have just joined PPRuNe but I have been reading a lot of this for very long time. But I have heard from friends that some guys went over to Hainan for interview and they were put up in an apartment building. Not even a hotel. This is HNA group, subsidary we are talking about. They had such a dissappointment, they never expected to be eating in a canteen. Thats what the airlines offered take it or leave it. No one spoke any English. This is recent sometime in September 2009.
They met other pilots who were working there said pay was below standard and were thinking about leaving to Korea. I myself was surprised because I heard good things but even the simulator evaluation was tough with multiple failures. Single engine plus dual RA failure plus Hydraulic failure and direct law altogether with cross wind.

What do those guys want acrobats?

I am also looking for a position but considering Korea or Vietnam, even Air Asia would be better. I called Macau Express, they seem to be interested in f.o and Capt.
Hey JotaJota! Looks like you are working for a perfect airline or getting paid highly. Which airline is that I would like to know so I can apply too. But reading this,I don't know man.
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Old 23rd Nov 2009, 23:54
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If you fly here, you will never be able to fly for another Chinese Airline unless you (or your new airline) pays the CAAC a fine. That fine amount (as of right now), looks to be in the amount of 1,000,000 Yuan. This way the CAAC can help the Chinese Carriers hold on to thier pilots.

Imagine if any Chinese pilot could switch airlines.......this is how they stop it. Anyway, you and I fall under the same umbrella and there is nothing we can do about it.

This is the stuff WASINC and the others wont tell you about. They will say they know nothing but that is a lie.
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Old 24th Nov 2009, 00:12
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Working in China

Hello, I am not the expert but have heard about the problems of switching China Airlines. I heard you will be black balled if you switch but i think it depends on your carrier. If you have a no "compete clause" put in your contract may help. It should spell out as long as you terminate your contract according to the rules you will be issued a release letter which will allow you to work at another Chinese airline. I think more than the written letter of your contract just do a good job and work out the details like a gentleman before you leave and it may help.

Many Chinese pilots owe their carriers to their companies because they train them from square one. The company pays for everything and the pilots are forever locked into the company. They can never leave unless they pay off their debt, I heard around 1,000,000 but never heard of a fine to the CAAC.

You may be right, I don't know and never tested my theory either. It is different and one must be careful if they plan to switch airlines in China.

Good Luck On Final.!!
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Old 27th Nov 2009, 19:04
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shenzhen

Hey there,

Is WASinc. the only game in town for working at Shenzhen, I am looking to take a A-320 capt. job in China and Shenzhen as a place to live seemed the best (over Beijing, Shanghai, Chengdu) but getting a bad vibe about WASinc. Any info would be great.
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Old 28th Nov 2009, 16:04
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Fly and forget the money!

Thats the attitude that China has. This is because most of the Chinese pilots have been trained from zero hours unlike in America. So, the carrier owns you. If they don't pay you for a month or so its normal attitude with many airlines. You will come across one or two post where the expat pilot has been hired by one on time paying carrier and he/she has only good things to say. I am trying to get all info myself and a couple of friends got hired by Air China. The place they stayed in China was a 2 star hotel, more like an apartment.
Read some of the Shenzen post and BE CAREFUL WHICH AGENCY YOU CHOOSE. Everybody I know is strongly telling me to choose only Parc,Rishworth and Sigmar. Don't even bother to look at others.

Try FRI. you might have to search it. don't know the acronym stands for. I read it in an earlier Shenzen post. Suggestion, Avoid Shenzen. They have a high turn over rate for pilots.
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Old 28th Nov 2009, 19:27
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Wasinc

Just my two cents worth

I have recently been through the Shenzhen Airlines screening and I must say I don't have a bad word to say about Wasinc.
The guys were very pleasant, showed us around the place and yes we all got out tickets reimbursed without any problems.
They did a great job of getting us all through the screening process and gave us all the relevant information we needed.
They invited us to ask any questions about any concerns and I believe answered them truthfully, including the Kunpeng issues.....

They also explained that they are at the mercy of Shenzhen Airlines itself, and it is common practice for Chinese companies to pay late. Hardly something the agencies can be blamed, or held responsible for I would have thought.
As far as contracts go, I have done a few contracts now and I can honestly say that no agency is perfect or any contract is water-proof.
If you are (going to be) new to contracting, you have to realise that you are on your own, a sole trader and therefore lack the protection of the masses. Unless you have very strong backing from a union of sorts, you stand on your own feet and accept the risks. In the end of the day it is about supply and demand.
Luckily for us, experience pilots are (now) in demand in China and the agents, including Wasinc, are impressing upon their clients that in order to attract and retain their pilot group, they need to pull up their socks. Don't forget, this is also a learning curve for them. I don't think there are many airlines around the world that are actually expanding and therefore need pilots.
Shenzhen Airlines alone need another 100 pilots next year, so we have been told. Like I said, my two cents worth is that you do your homework and if you are going to post comments like "stay away from XYZ agency" then back up your argument with supporting facts.
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Old 28th Nov 2009, 23:04
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What you see is not always what you get!

I completely agree with Eddie Shoe string. That's what I heard about Wasinc and they gave a positive reply when I called them to inquire about the interview. Very organized! GO FOR IT MAN!

HOPEFULLY YOU HAVE THE SAME TO SAY AFTER A FEW MONTHS INTO THE CONTRACT. ITS CHINA AND don't forget Wasinc's office is also in Shenzen. If they base you in Chengdu, I wonder if you get the same treatment. read earlier threads, its all smoke and mirrors. Four guys have already experienced non payment and left. thats why Shenzen needs 100 pilots because of the turn overs.

I have done my research thoroughly and before I go for any interview, I would like to see the contract. This 100 pilot ordeal is just to attract guys like us because we are expendable. They don't have to pay us and there is not a thing we can do about it. I don't see myself getting an attorney and fighting the battle. If XYZ is our representative then whom are they really representing? Us or the airline? The truth is bitter, they know the inside story, its all politics. Why is there only one agency for Shenzen and reputated Rishworth, DPI, PARC, Sigmar, etc are not representing Shenzen. They should back away from such an airline. If they stop sending pilots to an airline then we start getting paid on time. Its taking away candy from a child so that he learns. But thats not happening. Shenzen was here in USA and I was at the seminar. not once those guys mentioned about late payment which is going on a regular bases. You can't have AN EXCUSE WE ARE AT THE AIRLINES MERCY. THATS HORSE
GUYS! Before you sign up for the interview and get hopes up, ask to see the contract. YES! before going for the interview or at least ask the details. I am not aiming at any particular agency. If they are happy to show you and at least email you details then you know this is one of the right agencies.
I called up an agency for Korean 744. You can only make 3 attempts for the interview dates with Korean. The agency told me you can choose another agency to apply for the interview after. I knew right then this agency has nothing to hide, because they are advising me that I can still apply for the selection process with their competitors after my 3 attempts with them. I am talking about selection process for INTERVIEW. This is whom we want as our rep.
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Old 1st Dec 2009, 09:34
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Here a question regarding Shenzen Airlines:

1. Can you switch from commuting to non-commuting contracts midstream?

2. Is the educational allowance of USD 1000/month per child or total?

Thanks
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Old 1st Dec 2009, 13:29
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Depends on your repo

Yes and No.You might be able to with great difficulty. Check with the agent. I am guessing no till at least 1 year due to the pay.
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Old 1st Dec 2009, 21:13
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New Shenzhen contract

NGFellow,

The conditional contract I have, states that you can switch between the options every anniversary, so theoretically three times during the three year contract.

The education allowance is effectively for one child only.
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Old 2nd Dec 2009, 01:22
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Good Information

Thanks Eddie Shoe string.
My guess was right. Good to know! Not a bad contract. But I am hearing all kinds of not good stuff about the airline in particular. This is from pilots who are there now? Whom are you using as your agent? Wasinc or another?
Thanks in advance
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Old 2nd Dec 2009, 07:29
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shoot from the hip

Yes if you call wasinc they will answer your questions. They are very good at talking and getting you to sign up so they can collect commission on you. Once they are collecting commission on you, you will be on your own. Support dwindles down to minimum. Your reply time after you get to china will change from the same or next day to sometimes weeks for a reply. Wasinc is interested in recruitment but not retention. They don't want to step on the customers (shenzhen airlines) toes too much so they will always take sides with the airline and you will always get the short end of the stick. When you try to leave (in accordance with contract), don't expect any of the end of contract stuff to be followed. Expect wasinc to even keep some of your money.



Your contract won't be followed, it's a guideline only.


One thing for sure, is you will be locked in. If you try to change airlines or contract agency you will have all sorts of problems. Very very few people are able to do it successfully.


Yes, they need pilots because a BUNCH of guys left recently... there is a reason for this... if it is so great why would they leave? There are a lot of people angry at wasinc now. And not all of them talk on the internet.


The whole thing is a cowboy show and you will be the hired gun to come in and shoot from the hip - "bending the rules".

Last edited by fly_fly; 2nd Dec 2009 at 07:45.
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Old 2nd Dec 2009, 14:45
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Reality Check

Your contract won't be followed, it's a guideline only.
Not siding with anyone after reading post after post of people saying China never honours its contracts but all of us need to understand how Chinese contracts really work. They are not the equivalent of their counterparts in common law-based countries (China is civil law-based).

The Chinese contract invariably starts off with a preamble (blurb) about the governing laws of China and the need for mutual cooperation etc etc. Most foreigners will bypass this blurb and go straight on to scrutinise the detailed sub-clauses - but the preamble is the most important section in the entire contract:

Reality #1: The governing laws of China are the ones which will apply in case of any conflict with the contract's detailed provisions.

Reality #2: The need for mutual cooperation means the parties must be prepared to be flexible (i.e. depart from the provisions of the contract) in order to achieve Reality #1.
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