Bachelor in Aviation?

[dream747]

Wings first of all thanks a lot for the extremely useful and valuable insight and advice. I really appreciate it.

I apologise for the late reply as well, I was on vacation. I flew 4 times and managed to visit the flight deck each time and I asked the pilots for their opinions on what choice should I make in my situation. All them said that a degree first would be better than direct pilot training as there'll be something to fall back on under some undesirable circumstances. With reference to what you posted, would pilots have time to do a degree while working?

I understand where you're coming from, but I am a bit worried on employment after getting my license. I've read many posts on this board saying that many new pilots and graduates from flying institutions cannot find jobs as pilots even with some considerable amount of hours. For example if I were to go ahead I'd be going to Aus for training (cheapest and of good standard and near home) but it seems that everywhere is flooded with new pilots and it is likely that I won't be able to land a job even though I am looking for a course that specialises in airline preparation. I am very lucky to have a very supportive family who are willing to help me in my training should I go for it but we are not as financially strong as many others and it's important that I can start earning the money back as my parents go into retirement. I mean I know no degree or license can guarantee anyone a job but I'm just worried about this as after spending this huge amount of money I certainly need a job soon after that to support my family.

I'm from SIN too and I am actually considering self-funded training as I know I might not make it through the cadet pilot scheme. I am confident that I have slightly more knowledge that those who are just interested in the job only. But all my knowledge and interest came with a price. I did not study hard during secondary school years, I spent everyday at the airport, I begged my parents to take me on flights and my results aren't very good. Kind of regret..

Sorry to get a bit personal but I am not about to give up on this dream of mine since 5 to be an airline pilot. Anymore advice would be great.

Thanks a lot in advance again and apologise if my language is not proficient enough. I'm trying!

[halfscaledelfection]

BAv

DREAM747,

as you see there's more than one way to get to your 74. These posts from diff people who 'have made it there' obviously reflect their good opinions based on their own experience.

U gotta make your own decision.

I graduated from UNSW BAv course... If u asked me if it was cost effective, i'll shrug..but if u ask me if it was a good course, I'd say hell yeah. As to whether you get a call from the big airlines the minute u graduate would be down to luck. 2 out of my batchmates are in SIA...1 flying the 340's in CX....my seniors, Qantas......some instructing........goes on and on...
Definitely a good experience, althought not as cost effective, but EDUCATION can never be a waste of time or money...

that's what I think, at least....

PM me for more info. Best of luck with ur decision.

[skywest_xr]

Edith Cowan University offer a BAv and BSc (Aviation) in Perth, Western Australia.

Quite close to Singapore.

I always wanted to goto university, but at the same time, you goto university to study something your enjoy. I went to university to study aviation. Im very happy with the direction my career has taken as a consequence.

Each to their own I guess.

With my BSc I can enrol in a 1 year MBA, something I couldnt do with out a Bachelors degree.

Downside of a degree is the time. You can do an integrated ATPL course and be employable inside 12 months, where as most Bachelor degrees are spaced out over 3 years. Thats not to say you cant study externally whilst pursuing employment.

I beleive that you should goto university if you want to goto university. Dont go just for the sake of going because you will waste your time. Especially when you could just get your license and get out there.

Only you can choose mate. Either way, If you career brings you to Perth, we'll go have a beer.

xr

[galaxy flyer]

As an American, my advice would be get a degree and experience outside of aviation. It will provide a career and income when aviation fails you. My father always said, "learn a trade, then fly".

Personally, if I knew THEN what I know NOW about an aviation career, I'd have walked straight into a whirling propeller. It is a wonderful way of life, but the sacrifices, costs and pain, is NOT worth it. The real deal is to make a ton of money in financial "engineering" and buy a plane and crew to fly YOU where you want to go! In the US, even doctors are leaving medicine and heading into financial "engineering"!

GF

[max autobrakes]

dream747,
How could this be your first post if your profile indicates 10 posts?

[dream747]

Frankly speaking my career aspiration all along is to be an airline pilot. I'm not going for it because of it's pay and benefits but for what it is.

I'm looking for a path that will lead me to closest possible opportunity to be an airline pilot rather than having a mindset that one should go to university. Many said that university life is great but frankly I can forgo that if that path doesn't aid my cause. I'm unsure because I'm not sure what the airlines are looking for and how their expectations will change in the future. Will higher qualifications mean anything? It seems that asian airlines (around my area) prefer their pilots to have degrees. Or all they're looking for is experience? I'm pretty unsure of doing a certain course and ending up with airlines saying that I'm not suitable for them then that it'll be a great disappointment.

I really wish to try fulfil this dream of mine first before anything else as I frankly find it hard to give it up! Well if I ever start on pilot training I will definately do more studying outside that so as to have something to fall back on in the worst possible situation.

[dream747]

It was my first post when I started this thread but I have posted in other threads in the forum after starting this.

[sgrookie]

Dream747, may I enquire as to whether you've given any thoughts on this degree course. Say, if you're not employed by an airline, what would your contingency plan be? With the degree, what would be your future prospects if you're not flying for an airline be? I hope you realise that it's hard to be employed in an airline as you'll have all sorts of people whom you'll be competing with as well.

Unfortunately, this ties in with the self-sponsored thread somewhere lying around in that there are many people who have paid for their own training & yet, is not employed by any airlines. Take Australia for example, only 3%-5% of their pilots is employed by their airlines which leaves a fair number of pilots around. So, does this mean that you're going to give up flying just because you can't be in an airline? If thats the case, & you can afford it, fine. If you can't, I suggest you have a good thinking through as its too huge a gamble.

I know I sound discouraging, but this is the real world & I don't mean it to be that way but I just want you to weigh things equally before plunging in too quickly.

[dream747]

Sgrookie, check your PM!

[hopeful_pilot]

Hi there, I was wondering if pursuing a Diploma in Aviation Studies would help one's credibility during the cadet pilot interview?

This diploma could then lead to a diploma in air transport in RMIT where a CPL is obtained.

Comments/Input from anyone?

Much appreciated..Thanks!

[Clive]

Dream 747,

I have been reading your posts while on Christmas vacation and thought I should offer some advice – for what it is worth.

Perhaps it is best I share my experience with you....

I too always wanted to fly. I turned down an entry offer to a Bachelor of Science course straight after school and elected to do some odd jobs (delivering newspapers, washing cars, landscaping laborer etc) to get the money to fly. I was so frustrated in that endeavor that I rounded up cash from relatives (that I have since paid back) to get in and do an intensive flight instruction course.

The reason I share the above experience was to let you know that the frustrations of not flying when you are so fixed on the dream means every other activity suffers. Having read your reflections on your schooling years I fear this could happen to you at University. I currently lecture and mark Uni papers of distance education students and can see he difference in quality of those who are already in the workforce.

Back to my experience.... I finished my license, did 4 years in GA as an instructor then was lucky enough to get into a major. I have now been in airlines for around 25 years and have made it to the 747. Some years ago I decided that the airline thing may not last (with the 1989 troubles in Oz for example) so decided to get some “insurance” by studying part time at university. I have now completed a Bachelor of Aviation and a Master of Science (Air Transport Management). The first by distance education in Oz and the latter in London.

Both courses were enjoyable and made a great deal of sense with my airline background. Now as well as my flying career I also lecture part time and have a part time consultancy role for a major Risk and Safety Management Consultancy group in Oz. Great insurance if I wish to hang up the wings.

So my advice.... do what you love first. Get that license. Take any flying job you can. Then think about further education. Follow your dream (which means your heart rather than your head) and your life will be so much more happy and fulfilled.

Good luck.

[dream747]

Thanks Clive for the advice. Nice to see you're doing good as well. If you wouldn't mind can I discuss a bit more stuff with you? I'll PM you

[hopeful_pilot]

Originally Posted by hopeful_pilot

Hi there, I was wondering if pursuing a Diploma in Aviation Studies would help one's credibility during the cadet pilot interview?

This diploma could then lead to a diploma in air transport in RMIT where a CPL is obtained.

Comments/Input from anyone?

Much appreciated..Thanks!

To elaborate on the earlier post, after completing the Diploma in Aviation Studies, there is a tie-up with RMIT to pursue a Diploma in Air Transport (link attached below)

http://www.rmit.edu.au/browse/Study%...C6009;STATUS=A

The 2nd diploma in air transport will give you a CPL-IR from RMIT in 1yr, albeit it being abit pricey.. is it possible to apply to SIA or other airilnes with that? How viable does this sound if I want to pursue my ambition of becoming an airline pilot?

Thanks in advance for the comments and suggestions

[ckhy]

Gooday people, let me share some of my experience with you guys
I have been in Australia for nearly 10 years now (home town is HKG) and only fell in love with flying when I was 16, which was only 4 years ago. Since then I've decided to commit to aviation after I finished highschool. During my time in highschool I went through the same dilemma as most teens did of deciding what course I should take in University. I was well aware that there's no need for any degrees to become a pilot but I went with a Bachelor of Aviation anyway because I just feel more secure with a degree if you know what I mean and I knew if I did some other subjects like Business for examples sake and still train towards my licences,I would not be happy and I know for sure that I will fail that course miserably.
One thing to note that Dream747, is that my passion for flying doesn't narrow down to only the airlines but of course It would be nice If I could get the job.
I would just be happy to fly any aircraft anywhere in the world just because it's flying. You have to ask yourself that whether you really wanted to become a pilot no matter whether it's GA or the airlines or you're just kind of living in this whole ideal job ideal life airline dream? I am not trying to discourage you or doubt your passion by any means but I just wanted you to know that the roads for pilots doesn't end with the airlines.
Have you been in any light aircraft before? I might suggest you to go undertake one of those trial flights (not sure whether they have it over in singapore) just for the sake of getting the experience and know what this industry is actually about. That was exactly how I fell in love with flying by the way.
And as for myself, I'm currently about to start my final year and I hold CPL, MECIR, 2 subjects to go for my fATPL and I'm about to start my instructors rating training as well and will work as one until I graduate from uni. I am very fortunate that my family have been very supportive financially althought it is only a loan. After obtaining my bachelor I would go for the cadetships in Asia but If I failed to get it (touch wood) I would go back to Australia and maybe instruct or bush flying for a couple of years then I'll give the majors a try again.
At the end of the day whether the degree is useful or not, yes it certainly is to me, probably not now, not in a 1 or 2 years time but definitely further down the track.
You're not getting the degree for the airlines, the degree is for yourself as a pilot no matter what aircraft you fly or what company you're with.

Anyhow good luck all the best

[atuk]

Wings bro...take up flying, join airline as a pilot...and don't get married. THAT's bachelor in aviation..

[Tutaewera]

Which Uni?

If one assumes you are in Singapore I will put in my 5 cents worth.
Firstly - don't bother with the many Unis who offer barely dressed up B.Sc's or B.Coms as aviation degrees, when in fact they are mostly nothing of the sort.
Secondly - be careful in which country you study. Especially if you intend to work in Singapore, Hong Kong, Europe or Australasia. As much as I enjoy the hospitality of my American friends and respect many of their institutions the simple fact is some US schools offer "degrees" that may not be accepted. Any "associate degree" is basically worthless and many "full" degrees are not much better unless from an Ivy league school or the military, etc. You will also find an FAA licence is sometimes not looked upon favourably by CAAS Flight Crew Licencing. You can scream discrimination-lah if you want But its probably more a reflection of the very real different theory exam standards and wide variety of academic institutions.
This is not intended to bash FAA licences, its just my view after 20 years in the game in many different countries (thanks to 911 ) with as many ATPL licences. And having earned "proper" Uni degrees and post grad Dips that have always been "good enough" for recruiters.
For whatever reason(s), CAAS has some kinda deal going with Massey University's School of Aviation in New Zealand. They accept their CPL/IR that comes with the B.Av as a swap for the SIN licence. That will save you some hassle and $$$ when returning to look for a job. CAAS seems quite cosey with them.
However as a grad of both Massey Uni and later Swinburne Uni (OZ) In my view the Swinburne course was far better. It gave me useable knowledge from industry experts of reknown, and its reputation is perhaps endorsed by the many current aircrew from the likes of QANTAS, Cathay, Virgin Blue, Emirates etc who study there. When I was studying with Massey I got alot of irrelevant material from academics who were in my view, aviation nobodies with little industry experience. I have heard that the was a shake up there and that things are better now. I have also heard the RMIT course is quite useful... All I am saying is ASK AROUND before you sign and spend!
I had quite a few years in GA and regionals b4 doing my Uni aviation studies and am now an Airbus TRN CPT with about 20 years in the industry. I feel I can now usually recognise useful from non-useful and BS from reality.
If you want to be safe and ensure you hard work and $$$ are recognised back home, go to the UK, OZ or NZ. And then see if its a real aviation degree of some repute.

One last thing - only once did I really require a degree for a job, and at that particular major SE Asian airline any decent degree was enough. A B.Av was not required. I see the main benefit of such a thing is the reduction in time and $$$ vs getting a normal degree and then your CPL/IR/ATPL theory afterwards etc.

[mar1234]

hi just thoght id share my view on things. i wanted to be a pilot since as far back as i can remember. i had this big master plan where id finish school go to college do my A-levels. then once that had happened id start applying for cadet courses such as CTC. but that all went out the window when my parents decided to move me to new zealand. i had every intention of going back to england to carry on chasing my dream. after researching my options in new zealand i found out about a course run through the "nelson and malbourgh institute of technology" (cant spell sorry) the course was a diploma in aviation science. i was abit sceptical at first because i had no intention of going to uni, i wanted to go straight into training. but after having a good look into the course structure i can do that anyway. there are certain points where you can pull out of the course. cpl IR ATPL instructor rating. or you can carry on and do management papers and so on. so once ive reached my goal i will just pull out of the course without doing any diploma or degree papers and have my fATPL MEIR acrobatics rating, banner tow rating, parachute rating, pritty much any rating i want. and best of all its all on a interest free student loan. the full course is estimated to cost $80,000 nz dollars so ruffly £27,000 sterling. now thats a darn site cheaper than any training course available in england. far CTC course your talking £70,000 sterling and thats a bank loan. my training facility is accross the airfeild from where CTC do all there training. (on a personal note CTCs students and staff are so bloody ignorant. taxiing past, give them a wave to be courtious they just look at you blank) but anyway yea thats my story lol

[dream747]

Thanks guys for sharing.

The Aviation degree is really the course I would really like to do afterall that's where my interest lies. It seems that this degree is hardly recognised in any other jobs as would an engineering or business degree. I mean my first and in fact my only ambition is to become a pilot and the aviation degree is second to none for this profession but it seems that it is virtually impossible to find job as a pilot in Australia and New Zealand. My question is if a student ends up not being able to secure a flying job what else can he or she do with this qualification? Although this is really what I would like to study and do but this degree is really expensive and not having any job is the last thing I would want to get myself into. For those who did the aviation degree with the CPL, do you know of people not making it into the industry? Are there any other job prospects for this degree? If it's all or nothing it definately is a big gamble.

The other option I'm looking at is to do a degree in another discipline and learn flying at the same time, probably the PPL. I think it's too much to take doing a CPL concurrently with a degree. I mean for this I have something to fall back on but flying's really what I would really like.

ckhy, did you fnd work after doing your degree in australia as an international student? How's the situation like?

Cheers!

[ckhy]

Dream747,
I am an Aussie citizen so I'm not an overseas student.
It's really not hard to land your first flying job if you're willing to take that first step. A lot of remote, country places e.g. Central and western Australia are desperate for pilots for bush flying etc or you will always have an option of becoming an instructor first because most flying schools I know are short of instructors. Currently I start my instructors rating training in april and am lined up for the job afterwards if I performed in a satisfactory manner.

However, it would be a totally different story if you're not an Australian citizen. First of all you need to obtain a working Visa and most operators prefer to hire locals.

[dream747]

Thanks for the reply and I suppose as an international student and chinese by race it makes things even tougher and lessen opportunities! I'll really take it into consideration, it's a lot to spend on!