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Bachelor in Aviation?

Old 18th Nov 2006, 05:33
  #1 (permalink)  
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Bachelor in Aviation?

Hi everyone,

I've been reading but this is my first post.

I've just done my A levels and am contemplating what should I do next to pursue a career as a pilot. I did a search before I posted this and there were a lot of valuable opinions by members here regarding whether people should go for their degrees first or direct to flying training.

I'd like to seek opinions on the Bachelor of Aviation course. Universities like University of New South Wales in Aus offers is and it seems that it itself is a degree course and it has flying and the main theory papers integrated in it up to the ATPL. How is such a degree course better/not as good compared to flying schools? The cost is rather much the same as compared to flying schools as well. If it's viable, wouldn't be a plus since it is a degree and it includes flying training? Would you guys recommend it?

http://www.aviation.unsw.edu.au/

Thanks a lot! Any input much appreciated.
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Old 18th Nov 2006, 10:39
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Quite a few uni's doing aviation degree's I know Leeds, Kingston and Buckingham Chitern College do degree's, but the cost of flight training is on top of your uni fee's
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Old 18th Nov 2006, 11:26
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I finished a degree in AERONAUTICAL SCIENCE in the US ... went to flight school first and instead of doing 4 years bachelor I finished in 2 years because of a lot of flying credits transfered and accepted by the UNI and taking more credits a semester (up to 21 a semester)!!! ... havent regret it, learned a lot of things, not just how to fly planes!
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Old 18th Nov 2006, 11:59
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In UK, you'd be much better off funding an ATPL by doing a Physics degree, PGCE, and teaching for a couple of years as you do the modules.

12 weeks plannable guaranteed holidays for your US blocks, a 6k golden hello, and (by then) 25k start pay.

Backup career sorted.

CG
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Old 18th Nov 2006, 13:58
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Thanks for the replies guys.

As far as I understand from the website it seems that the fees quoted are inclusive of the flying training that's why I can't help but feel the number hours could be much less than what flying school offers.

Am considering some degree courses like these because if for any reason I don't make it to being a pilot hopefully this degree can earn one some other job opportunities?

However I'm wondering about the quality of the flying training as compared to flying schools.. and will future employers see such a degree and the incorporated ATPL as the same level as flying schools?

I am the crossroads like many now, to see whether I should go for a degree or flying training so such a course caught my attention.

Many thanks!
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Old 18th Nov 2006, 14:15
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In the UK you would be alot better going to sparky/plumbers college or a gas fitter CORGI course.

Its a license to print money. 45 quid an hour the thieving sods.

You will earn alot more alot quicker than most degrees.

You will have access to an instant job/ homers if cash is tight.

I wouldn't like to comment down your end of the woods dream747. I don't know what each option costs and what the resultant qualifiction would actually mean to you.

In the UK you don't even need a single formal qualification to gain your license. And there are plenty of very well payed pilots out there who arn't qualified to A level standard, there are also alot of degree holders as well.
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Old 19th Nov 2006, 09:23
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It's really my interest to become a pilot for airlines but howevever after reading many of the posts here suggesting that it is really very very difficult to get a job after graduation and it's rather discouraging, considering that the school fees are rather steep. I've also got a family to think of so if a job is hard to get I might really have to give it up although I really hate to without even trying but the risks seem high.
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Old 19th Nov 2006, 09:57
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People, dream747 is in Singapore and is asking about a course in Australia. Information about UK courses are unlikely to be helpful.

dream747, I believe Singapore Airlines still runs a Cadet scheme for local people under a certain age. If you can get on that, you'd be well on your way. If you are thinking of trying to train and get a job in Singapore or Australia using your own resources while supporting a family, you may be hoping for rather too much; neither the Singapore nor Australian airline markets are awash with airline jobs for baby pilots.

I shall move this thread to the Far East forum in the hope that you will get more pertinent advice.

Scroggs
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Old 19th Nov 2006, 15:41
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In my humble opinion, you should get a degree in something else than aviation. An aviation degree won't put you ahead of somebody that has a Business degree for example. As far as Airline go, it is a box that you mark or not. But in your down time from flying (Remember that the only thing certain about flying is that certainly your employment is fragile, at best) A degree in aviation won't do anything for you in terms of supporting your family while you go on trying to get another job in this here paid hobby of ours.
Good luck on your decision
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Old 20th Nov 2006, 02:38
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thanks people for the valuable advice. I guess it would be safer then not to go ahead with the aviation degree. I mean I'd really love to study something that I have an absolute and natural interest in but I guess unfortunately in this field it's not really viable.

I understand like what you guys have mentioned jobs are really very few for baby pilots and that was why I looked at this course that I mentioned. It includes many other components like Maths, Physics, Engineering, Aviation Economics, Airline Management, Aviation Regulations, Human Factors and Aviation Safety Management. Would all these modules in the course can at least make one suitable for another job other than flying? Or is being a pilot the only job prospect?

Actually it doesn't matter if I couldn't start with airlines right away back in Australia or Singapore. I'd go for any flying job that is available but it seems that employment opportunities are still low!

Thanks very much for the advice, apologies for so many questions but your opinions do really help!

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Old 20th Nov 2006, 02:40
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Absolute waste of money to go to uni if you want to be a pilot. Most uni degrees in aviation are only touching on CRM. If you join an airline,it will send you to more relevent CRM courses.Most big airlines have their own in house courses.So,why do you want to waste your money? If you are interested in airline management,then you could do master degree(MBA) with you ATPL as shortcut.

Aussie flying schools are pretty good but if cost is a concern,Langkawi is actually a very good option.
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Old 20th Nov 2006, 03:10
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Flightleader,

I see where you're coming from. But I'm pretty concerned about employment opportunities. I mean I don't expect to jump straight into airlines but are employments as a pilot available in other sectors other than airlines initially?

Because it would be difficult pay so much for the training without being able to start earning it back (albeit slowly) after graduation?
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Old 20th Nov 2006, 03:59
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bachlar in aviation

hi there, to be honest, depend on which country you are from....some countries do recognize the aviation degree, like singapore, and most of the countries, sorry, i mean airlines, dont give a rats ass about it...

if you can get into SIA or something like that, i have heard a guy got his degree along with 250hr, got into SIA....
but most of the airlines and advitisments....if you have a look, all they need are 5000hr, 2000hr on what ever the type they want you to fly, so at the end of the day, the 250hr bachlar means nothing...

if anyone wants to have something to fall back....i mean come on....even though you had 8 management papers from your degree, why should an airline hire you rather than some one with a proper management degree, cos he/she will be alot more quilified on that job.

for sure, some airlines might want you to have some higher qualifications than high school, so my suggestion is, may be same as some of other guys here, get a degree that is not related to flying (somethng to back you up), then do flying on the side.....

if i knew all those before i started, i wouldnt be spending more than US$100,000 to do mine.....i could bought myself about 700hr single, 200multi, and probably 100hr turbo prop if i wanted, so i will be having an airline job by now....

but what did i get out of all the money i spent?????

250hrs..

good luck with your decsion man.PM me if you want to know more about aviation degrees
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Old 20th Nov 2006, 11:16
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Flyboy has it at a different angle.

Would you want to be become chief pilot or any airline management posts with MBA or degree?

Would uni stories better than airline crew overnight party/travel/shoping/golf....stories??

Your choice!
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Old 20th Nov 2006, 16:46
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Well to be frank I never thought that far about it. Actually I'm interested to know whether a degree course like this with the integrated flying training is as good as a flying school's one? The fees seem to be on par with each other but if the degree one offers much more then why not? But I don't know about the quality of the flying training and why would it cost the same as with flying schools when they offer much more.

Say if I graduate with a degree and I fail to land a job as a pilot, would the degree open up other job opportunities?

Last edited by dream747; 21st Nov 2006 at 01:41. Reason: Spelling
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Old 20th Nov 2006, 21:47
  #16 (permalink)  
 
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dream 747

good question here, if you fail to be a pilot with an aviation degree....

yeh, i know quite a few guys finished bachlar in aviation, end up in shopping malls selling electronics....

there are at leat 20 to 25 graduates from my uni each year, and not all of them are flying right now, that is grarenteed.
same as my previous posts, if an airline wants a guy or a girl in the marketing team, why should he hire you with a piloting degree, who knows nothing about passengers, cargo, markets.....i know i would hire some one with a marketing degree for it.

as to the training, yeah, i heard from a highly qualified flight examiner, he said "yeh, they are all right, nothing different from any other guys i tested".

the biggest problem is the university (no matter which one) will think they are the step stone to airlines, they are the , and they will give you a false hope that when you finish your degree, you will fly 747....

in reality, unless they put it in writing, i dont beleive it. but i did, and now i am in GA, which i am really enjoying it, and GA is the stepping stone to airline and a life....not uni., trust me..
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Old 26th Nov 2006, 03:18
  #17 (permalink)  
 
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Regarding University Aviation Degrees.

As one has counselled many school leavers regarding a career as a pilot I would like to offer the following thoughts.

Airlines want pilots on flight deck seats.
They have little interest in anything other than the simple fact that you are qualified to sit in the seat and operate the aircraft.
In this regard, a BAv is a waste of effort.

When recruiting pilots, airline recruitment staff (usually other pilots) look at your logbook as their Primary Reference. Two, three or more years in a University classroom studying are two three or more years you have not been in a cockpit / flightdeck.
Most pilots in recruitment teams don't have and don't understand University qualifications. So your BAv will do little to impress them.
All other things being equal, if an airline had to choose between two pilots, one with no Uni Degree but lots of hours, the other with a BAv and low hours, the guy with the fatter logbook will win every time.
In this regard, a BAv is a waste of time.

Universities are like shops. They are commercial enterprises that nowdays have to make money or at least appear worthwhile to their paymasters. In an effort to achieve this they sell a range of products called "Degrees".
To get people to buy their products they engage advertising tactics to convince potential consumers that they need the product.
You need to ask yourself
"Do I really need this product ?"

The only qualification essential for a career as an airline pilot is an ATPL.
To get an ATPL you have to sit and pass exams and tests set by the government authority in your country ( in the UK it's the CAA).
To sit those exams you don't even need a Kindergarden qualification, let alone University Degree. You just need to pay the money and sit the tests.
If you pass all the CAA exams and tests, you get your licence.
So there is no need for a BAv

Finally on the negatives, I have spoken with several students who have attended University BAv / integrated ATPL courses and the have ALL run into the following problem....
They sit the university prepared courses that are set and assessed by the uni. They do just enough and get a final mark of (say) 51%. PASS !!
Now, with the same attitude of "51% is a Pass" they try to sit the CAA exams. Unfortunately CAA exams have pass marks or either 70, 80 or 100%.
So they have this double standard to come to terms with.
51% at Uni = PASS
51% at CAA exams = miserable failure.
As a young student with an awful lot happening in your life do you really need the complication of double standards ?

On the Upside of Uni qualifications.
Lots of youngsters who leave Secondary School and go straight to flying schools are (understandably) not very mature. For example, they might get very drunk in the evening then try to go flying the next morning. At best they will perform poorly and have to re sit the flight -- money wasted.
A year or two at Uni being silly before getting down to the serious work of learning to fly is safer and cheaper.

The 'integrated' nature of the Uni courses means that the standard of training you receive is often better than what you would get at a local flying school.

Universities usually have a far greater range of facilities / learning tools than local flying schools. This could mean things as simple as a library where you can study in peace and quiet (how many flying schools have a library that is anything bigger that a bookshelf with a few old flying books ?). It could be things such as visiting a Physics lab to do fluid dynamics experiments as a different way of learning about the lift generated by different wing shapes.

Different people learn things in different ways. Some people learn things just by looking at / reading things. Others have to be able to orally recite things to learn them. Others again have to be able to draw or physically act things out to learn them. Unis will be aware of this and have ways of accommodating these different learning styles. Flying schools may have a set of course books, maybe a DVD or two and one lecturer / flying instructor to help. Apart from that you will have to just get on with it the best you can.

Integrated uni degree / flying courses often earn concessions from the CAA so that instead of having to complete say 700 hours for your CPL you can be awarded your CPL after only 650 (50 hours savings at 150 pounds per flying hour).

My advice.
Do not go to Uni to study a BAv just yet. Do your research. Find yourself a highly respected flying training organisation and get your CPL / Frozen ATPL now. This will get you employed in an airline quickest.
Once you are 'In', you can now reflect on what you want a University degree for. Clearly you don't need it for employment as an airline pilot. Perhaps you want to progress into airline management, or do something different like study Ancient Greek Flower Arranging. Whatever, it will be what you want to do. It will be your choice and the threatening doom of failure and no flying career will have disappeared. The issue of double standards (51% Pass / 51% Fail) will also have gone.

Whatever your choice, good luck. There is a growing shortage of suitably qualified pilots out there, there is probably no better time to consider a career as a pilot.

Cheers
Wings

Last edited by Wings; 26th Nov 2006 at 03:23. Reason: Spelling errors
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Old 28th Nov 2006, 03:46
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Singapore
Posts: 27
hi wings, thanks for your post..i read it and found it very insightful and practical. could you or anyone out there give me some advice regarding my situation?

i got rejected in the 2nd/final round interview of a commercial airline cadet pilot application, partly bcos my degree was not aviation/engineering related and they were not convinced about my technical knowledge and interest to fly even though my educational results have been very gd over the years.

while waiting for the chance to reapply, do you have any advice what courses should i do to show them that i have the interest/aptitude in flying? from your post, it seems like there is not much point doing an aviation related course. would it be a better option to try getting a PPL? hope you can advice me here as i do not watn to make a hasty decision without proper consideration beforehand...

thanks so much!

Originally Posted by Wings View Post
Regarding University Aviation Degrees.

As one has counselled many school leavers regarding a career as a pilot I would like to offer the following thoughts.

Airlines want pilots on flight deck seats.
They have little interest in anything other than the simple fact that you are qualified to sit in the seat and operate the aircraft.
In this regard, a BAv is a waste of effort.

When recruiting pilots, airline recruitment staff (usually other pilots) look at your logbook as their Primary Reference. Two, three or more years in a University classroom studying are two three or more years you have not been in a cockpit / flightdeck.
Most pilots in recruitment teams don't have and don't understand University qualifications. So your BAv will do little to impress them.
All other things being equal, if an airline had to choose between two pilots, one with no Uni Degree but lots of hours, the other with a BAv and low hours, the guy with the fatter logbook will win every time.
In this regard, a BAv is a waste of time.

Universities are like shops. They are commercial enterprises that nowdays have to make money or at least appear worthwhile to their paymasters. In an effort to achieve this they sell a range of products called "Degrees".
To get people to buy their products they engage advertising tactics to convince potential consumers that they need the product.
You need to ask yourself
"Do I really need this product ?"

The only qualification essential for a career as an airline pilot is an ATPL.
To get an ATPL you have to sit and pass exams and tests set by the government authority in your country ( in the UK it's the CAA).
To sit those exams you don't even need a Kindergarden qualification, let alone University Degree. You just need to pay the money and sit the tests.
If you pass all the CAA exams and tests, you get your licence.
So there is no need for a BAv

Finally on the negatives, I have spoken with several students who have attended University BAv / integrated ATPL courses and the have ALL run into the following problem....
They sit the university prepared courses that are set and assessed by the uni. They do just enough and get a final mark of (say) 51%. PASS !!
Now, with the same attitude of "51% is a Pass" they try to sit the CAA exams. Unfortunately CAA exams have pass marks or either 70, 80 or 100%.
So they have this double standard to come to terms with.
51% at Uni = PASS
51% at CAA exams = miserable failure.
As a young student with an awful lot happening in your life do you really need the complication of double standards ?

On the Upside of Uni qualifications.
Lots of youngsters who leave Secondary School and go straight to flying schools are (understandably) not very mature. For example, they might get very drunk in the evening then try to go flying the next morning. At best they will perform poorly and have to re sit the flight -- money wasted.
A year or two at Uni being silly before getting down to the serious work of learning to fly is safer and cheaper.

The 'integrated' nature of the Uni courses means that the standard of training you receive is often better than what you would get at a local flying school.

Universities usually have a far greater range of facilities / learning tools than local flying schools. This could mean things as simple as a library where you can study in peace and quiet (how many flying schools have a library that is anything bigger that a bookshelf with a few old flying books ?). It could be things such as visiting a Physics lab to do fluid dynamics experiments as a different way of learning about the lift generated by different wing shapes.

Different people learn things in different ways. Some people learn things just by looking at / reading things. Others have to be able to orally recite things to learn them. Others again have to be able to draw or physically act things out to learn them. Unis will be aware of this and have ways of accommodating these different learning styles. Flying schools may have a set of course books, maybe a DVD or two and one lecturer / flying instructor to help. Apart from that you will have to just get on with it the best you can.

Integrated uni degree / flying courses often earn concessions from the CAA so that instead of having to complete say 700 hours for your CPL you can be awarded your CPL after only 650 (50 hours savings at 150 pounds per flying hour).

My advice.
Do not go to Uni to study a BAv just yet. Do your research. Find yourself a highly respected flying training organisation and get your CPL / Frozen ATPL now. This will get you employed in an airline quickest.
Once you are 'In', you can now reflect on what you want a University degree for. Clearly you don't need it for employment as an airline pilot. Perhaps you want to progress into airline management, or do something different like study Ancient Greek Flower Arranging. Whatever, it will be what you want to do. It will be your choice and the threatening doom of failure and no flying career will have disappeared. The issue of double standards (51% Pass / 51% Fail) will also have gone.

Whatever your choice, good luck. There is a growing shortage of suitably qualified pilots out there, there is probably no better time to consider a career as a pilot.

Cheers
Wings
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Old 28th Nov 2006, 23:55
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1998
Location: Brunei
Posts: 79
I must admit to being a bit slack first time around and not reading your post as carefully as I should have. Sorry.
I didn't notice that you are based in Singapore, and I assumed you already had a PPL.

That changes things a bit.
The fact that your callsign has you based in Singapore, and the fact that you have just sat your A Levels (an English set of exams) leads me to assume that you are English, living in Singapore.
This also fits the idea of going to an Australian University (closer than a UK one, and probably cheaper).

The problem working against you at the moment seems to be that you can show no record of a long term committment to aviation as a career.
Have you had any flying lessons at all ?
How much time have you spent hanging around the GA airports (Seletar) just learning to recognise aircraft, talking to pilots and engineers and just picking up random aviation knowledge.
When was the first time you wrote to an airline telling them about your career ambition ? I know of one guy who wrote in crayon to a major carrier when he was about 3 or 4 years old - just learning to write - telling them of his ambition.
If you went down to Changi and sat in the spectator's gallery, how many aircraft types could you identify ?
Have you ever picked up a basic level book to learn how a jet engine works ?
Look out the window and identify the cloud types you can see. What weather do they suggest you will have in the next 6 hours ?
In flying we don't use kilometers per hour, we use Knots. Why ?
Do you know Morse Code ? ( it's not essential to know it nowdays but it still shows committment - effort on your part).

What I'm getting at is:
whichever airline was looking at you as a potential cadet were considering investing upwards of 100 00 pounds or dollars in you. Smart guys are a dime a dozen. You needed to have something else. You needed to have a demonstrable committment to a career in aviation.
If you ever saw the Month Python film 'The Life of Brian' there is a scene when Brian is trying to prove his hatred of the Romans so he can join a revolutionary group.
The conversation goes;
"How much do you hate the Romans ?
"a lot"
"OK you're in"
That's what your airline saw.
Just talk.
They needed to see more.

Go and pay for a Class One Aviation Medical. It will be expensive first time around, but it will prove that you are medically fit to hold a licence. It will prove that you will not be excluded from holding a licence because you are colour blind, have latent epilepsy, are diabetic or whatever. If you do fail the medical, you will have the advantage of knowing you have a medical condition and do something about it. You can also start considering other careers sooner rather than later. If you pass the medical, it is something else to prove your committment.

Flying lessons are expensive and I don't know your financial status (it's none of my business) but you really should have a least some lessons, if for no other reason than to find out if you really do like flying, or just like the idea of being an airline pilot.
Again, if you are living in Singapore, you might like to consider flying training in Australia because the weather is generally good, it is close to Singapore and the airspace in Australia is generally not crowded. This all allows for good continuity in your training - which makes it better and cheaper.
It should be noted however that an Australian Licence will not get you a job in Europe or the the UK. You will need a JAA Licence for that. Some Australian Flying Schools do offer JAA Licences - check out which ones do.

If you can't afford flying training, buy yourself a set of flying training manuals to at least learn the theory of flying. The Aviation Theory Training Centre set of books (originally by a guy called Trevor Thom) are among the best around.
Also get yourself a copy of microsoft flightsim and use that to put what you read in the books into practice.
It's not as good as the real thing, but it's beter than nothing and it shows committment.

A final note; the fact that an airline was prepared to consider you as a cadet despite your 'lack of credentials' indicates that
(1) you must be academically bright enough
(2) you are physically coordinated enough and
(3) the airlines are in need of pilots.

None of these will change in the near future.

Good luck.

Cheers
Wings

Last edited by Wings; 29th Nov 2006 at 00:03. Reason: spelling errors
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Old 29th Nov 2006, 11:58
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Away
Posts: 300
In answering your question, there is this to consider:

Preparation is everything.

Interviewers can smell it, taste it and see it in a candidate as soon as he or she walks through the door.

I know this for a fact.

My friend and colleague sits down to interview cadets for a major airline. He and his fellow interviewers are constantly disappointed by the abject lack of preparation at the most fundamental level in all but a few candidates.

Guess who gets the job, every time.

If you can't begin sentences with capital letters, it may be an indication of your lack of apparent readiness to apply yourself and prepare for an interview, in this case, as a cadet. I don't know this, which is why I used the word 'may'. But one thing is for sure. The only indication of your preparedness here, on this forum, is your use of English grammar.

Am I right?

Additionally, Wings' post deals with your latter question precisely. It is odd that you have to ask him to repeat what he's said: "Get a licence and get out there."

Come on, man. You can do better than this. You can and you should. Have faith in yourself and give it all you have got. Don't see my criticism as disheartening, and don't rely on a bloody cadetship.

Beg, borrow or work and save hard, just don't steal. Get the coin and get a licence.

And start your sentences properly next time...
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