Air Japan (AJX) B767
Join Date: Jan 2008
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Be aware if you take this one (AJX/AJV) on. The failure rate is confirmed to be in excess of 50%. Passing the interview is thus not indicitave of the likleyhood of success. If you do fail you are out on the street without any notice and that can occur at any time during your training. It is possible that you will have been out of the market for up to 6 months and will probably loose currency on your type. Amongst other things you will be expected to be able to fly hand a 767 at 550' (+/- 20' is considederd rough) assymetric or with a C hydraulic failure on a 1.5 nm down wind with 15 kts toward the runway. If you are unable to fly within tollerances, line up exactly and on path you will not pass. You will also be subjected to two oral tests conducted by the JCAB a matter of weeks apart, the scope of which is undefined. In other words any question can be asked. If it is not answered satisfactorily you will fail. If they do not like your attitude, you will not pass regardless of how well you fly or answer the questions. One should weigh the above very carefully in considering this opportunity.
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How realistic is the previous post?
There have been horror stories about the training before.
I tend to believe that a guy with a good attitude should be
able to pass with no problem!
Can somebody with a successful pass comment on that?
I tend to believe that a guy with a good attitude should be
able to pass with no problem!
Can somebody with a successful pass comment on that?
Join Date: Oct 2006
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[QUOTE] Can somebody with a successful pass comment on that? [QUOTE]
We have had a high failure rate, this is true. Something in the 40 to 50% rate after my class went trough. Our class didn't do too bad, out of 8 for AJX and 4 for AJV one from each class didn't make it. (That is a pretty normal failure rate there) but not so good for the classes after us.
And yes, a good attitude goes a long way. Not only here at the training center but at the hotel too. If you behave like an ass with the hotel staff, guess what? The company will hear about it. If you are constantly questioning the procedures and making comments as to how your former company's procedure made more sence, guess what? you are making it hard on yourself.
And yes, they are pretty demmanding in their manouvers and you have to fly to the specs that the previous post metioned. But, they also give you a TONNE of sim time for you to get good at it. IT IS A PILOT's JOB. At some point you have to be able to hand fly the thing without loosing 20 or 30 feet.
I'm not going to pump sunshine on anyone, I have already stated that there have been a high failure rate latelly. But I also realize that my flying abilities are average on my best days, and if my dumbass made it to the line?
Come at your own risk, training is long and hard. But flying the line is great.
Good luck
We have had a high failure rate, this is true. Something in the 40 to 50% rate after my class went trough. Our class didn't do too bad, out of 8 for AJX and 4 for AJV one from each class didn't make it. (That is a pretty normal failure rate there) but not so good for the classes after us.
And yes, a good attitude goes a long way. Not only here at the training center but at the hotel too. If you behave like an ass with the hotel staff, guess what? The company will hear about it. If you are constantly questioning the procedures and making comments as to how your former company's procedure made more sence, guess what? you are making it hard on yourself.
And yes, they are pretty demmanding in their manouvers and you have to fly to the specs that the previous post metioned. But, they also give you a TONNE of sim time for you to get good at it. IT IS A PILOT's JOB. At some point you have to be able to hand fly the thing without loosing 20 or 30 feet.
I'm not going to pump sunshine on anyone, I have already stated that there have been a high failure rate latelly. But I also realize that my flying abilities are average on my best days, and if my dumbass made it to the line?
Come at your own risk, training is long and hard. But flying the line is great.
Good luck
Join Date: Sep 2007
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Quote: "If you do fail you are out on the street without any notice and that can occur at any time during your training"
Simply not true, it can go either way. There have been many pilots who have failed and been given another go, in fact there are two on course right now having failed and are being another try. It depends on attitude, skill and potential. If during the training you continualy demonstrate below standard, you can expect to be cut at some opportunity.
Quote: "Amongst other things you will be expected to be able to fly hand a 767 at 550' (+/- 20' is considederd rough) assymetric or with a C hydraulic failure on a 1.5 nm down wind"
Also technically incorrect ANA never practice assymetric circling, only 'C' system inoperative.
Quote:"You will also be subjected to two oral tests conducted by the JCAB a matter of weeks apart, the scope of which is undefined. In other words any question can be asked. If it is not answered satisfactorily you will fail."
I understand that the oral has been 'upped' a bit but there is the record of a pilot that did not actually answer any questions or attempt to and passed! ANA will give you a few Oral skills, for example answer in english and very fast. Or, answer what you DO know rather than the question.
I have done the orals and I have not been able to answer all the questions and some I got plain wrong. In one answer to the JCAB guy, I said that I would not insult him by guessing.
Finally, to repeat earlier advice, it is not that hard. There is not a hangmans noose waiting outside the sim, ANA genuinely want you to pass.
Gambate ne.
Simply not true, it can go either way. There have been many pilots who have failed and been given another go, in fact there are two on course right now having failed and are being another try. It depends on attitude, skill and potential. If during the training you continualy demonstrate below standard, you can expect to be cut at some opportunity.
Quote: "Amongst other things you will be expected to be able to fly hand a 767 at 550' (+/- 20' is considederd rough) assymetric or with a C hydraulic failure on a 1.5 nm down wind"
Also technically incorrect ANA never practice assymetric circling, only 'C' system inoperative.
Quote:"You will also be subjected to two oral tests conducted by the JCAB a matter of weeks apart, the scope of which is undefined. In other words any question can be asked. If it is not answered satisfactorily you will fail."
I understand that the oral has been 'upped' a bit but there is the record of a pilot that did not actually answer any questions or attempt to and passed! ANA will give you a few Oral skills, for example answer in english and very fast. Or, answer what you DO know rather than the question.
I have done the orals and I have not been able to answer all the questions and some I got plain wrong. In one answer to the JCAB guy, I said that I would not insult him by guessing.
Finally, to repeat earlier advice, it is not that hard. There is not a hangmans noose waiting outside the sim, ANA genuinely want you to pass.
Gambate ne.
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40 to 50% of the very good pilots ie: those with sufficient skills and motivation to be selected , have been unable to meet the standards required both in performance and attitude. It is important to note that those who are given a second chance are NOT included in the overall failure statistic nor are those who manage to answer the questions asked of them with technique rather than knowledge. It is possible to pass the process. Plenty of extra training is provided for those who are borderline however they will not be put up for a JCAB check if it is felt they will not be succesfull. Once the deciscion is made termination is immediate ,there is no period of grace to allow you to re-establish yourself. Fact! Even those with te best possible attitude will be terminated if their manipulative ability or flight management falls short of a very high mark. Be aware that there is a propensity for the concequences and likelyhood of failure to be continuously minimised by the all recruiting firms. Again I strongly suggest careful assessment of the opportunity particularly if you have a good job at the moment or for F.O's are even remotely in line for a command.
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Yo Dignitas,
I'd hate to shatter your impression but the standard isn't that high. Have you ever flown with the Japanese online? There are a lot of guys that have gotten through that wouldn't have passed majors like Cathay, United, Qantas etc. The standard is extremely wide. In fact for a bit of fun I'd love to see some of the ANA senior Captains pass a sim check that is unscripted, like a normal airline. Picture this; a senior checker does his sim renewal, first take off rejects, the sim operator/Checker apologizes as he forgot to put in the engine failure at V1! The aircraft comes to a screaching halt with both engines operating normally!
As a minor point, if anyone is currently online as ANA and flight crew in 767 can they varify that this is the easiest airline job in the world to keep. I'm looking for a comment on a renewal etc?
For a long time ANA lost roughly 1 in 10 pilots to any number of reasons (go back a while to some of my posts). It has only become extremely bad recently. One of the factors is western ego's playing a part. When you put two guys together for such a long period, it becomes tense and invariably there is competition between the guys and animosity. You typically have one guy trying show how good he is by making the other guy look bad. The result is both suffer for not focusing on the task at hand. It becomes a childish pissing contest.
My final words would be; You don't have to kiss ass, you don't have to behave like you're in an internment camp, just shut up and fly the plane, that's it.
Gambate to all the guys that started last week.
I'd hate to shatter your impression but the standard isn't that high. Have you ever flown with the Japanese online? There are a lot of guys that have gotten through that wouldn't have passed majors like Cathay, United, Qantas etc. The standard is extremely wide. In fact for a bit of fun I'd love to see some of the ANA senior Captains pass a sim check that is unscripted, like a normal airline. Picture this; a senior checker does his sim renewal, first take off rejects, the sim operator/Checker apologizes as he forgot to put in the engine failure at V1! The aircraft comes to a screaching halt with both engines operating normally!
As a minor point, if anyone is currently online as ANA and flight crew in 767 can they varify that this is the easiest airline job in the world to keep. I'm looking for a comment on a renewal etc?
For a long time ANA lost roughly 1 in 10 pilots to any number of reasons (go back a while to some of my posts). It has only become extremely bad recently. One of the factors is western ego's playing a part. When you put two guys together for such a long period, it becomes tense and invariably there is competition between the guys and animosity. You typically have one guy trying show how good he is by making the other guy look bad. The result is both suffer for not focusing on the task at hand. It becomes a childish pissing contest.
My final words would be; You don't have to kiss ass, you don't have to behave like you're in an internment camp, just shut up and fly the plane, that's it.
Gambate to all the guys that started last week.
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EGO not, ability and attitude YES!!!!
Meguro, you speak confidently about this subject, as if you are in AJX/V but then you ask for input from guys about renewals etc. Are you one of us or a outsider who is stirring the pot.
The western ego has been around since AJX started hiring western pilots in 2001. Your assertion that the ego is to blame for the failure rate is a crock of s%^t. These problems were there then but the failure rate was a lot lower than it is now.
Possibly the failure rate is because the package is so poor compared to those offered by established, reputable airlines worldwide that the average standard of applicant has slipped and they just can't make the grade now.
In the past the majority of pilots were sourced from well established, large airlines with a well well-entrenched discipline and adherence to procedures.
Another factor contributing to the failure rate is the fact that ANA has outsourced training to Alteon using foreign instructors. Now, as has been mentioned, Planet-Japan has a very different way of doing things and these poor guys were thrown in the deep end not being familiar with this. The Japanese have NO clue of what goes on outside Japan, so did not know that they would do things differently. Throw in some internal politics and the mix is volatile.
I would agree with you, the average standard of the Japanese pilots, themselves is pretty mediocre, they're not the Chuck Yeager's they think they are.
The western ego has been around since AJX started hiring western pilots in 2001. Your assertion that the ego is to blame for the failure rate is a crock of s%^t. These problems were there then but the failure rate was a lot lower than it is now.
Possibly the failure rate is because the package is so poor compared to those offered by established, reputable airlines worldwide that the average standard of applicant has slipped and they just can't make the grade now.
In the past the majority of pilots were sourced from well established, large airlines with a well well-entrenched discipline and adherence to procedures.
Another factor contributing to the failure rate is the fact that ANA has outsourced training to Alteon using foreign instructors. Now, as has been mentioned, Planet-Japan has a very different way of doing things and these poor guys were thrown in the deep end not being familiar with this. The Japanese have NO clue of what goes on outside Japan, so did not know that they would do things differently. Throw in some internal politics and the mix is volatile.
I would agree with you, the average standard of the Japanese pilots, themselves is pretty mediocre, they're not the Chuck Yeager's they think they are.
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For Ishi!
QUOTE "One of the factors is western ego's playing a part. When you put two guys together for such a long period, it becomes tense and invariably there is competition between the guys and animosity."
This came from an ANA Captain that authorised more sim for two guys. It is only a factor, it was mean't as advice to someone on course now or considering it.
Yes, I'm one of You. I knew Ishiyama and god damn it he had wide head. I know Kobi went sailing off the end off NRT 'B' runway. The Spud won't make a basket ball player and the red book is a great read.
I share the sentiment of your comment about paying conditions not attracting the people that they want. Like from the majors.
The other airlines are much quicker to adapt to the changing labour market. It took ANA six years and a 50% devaluation of the currency to even look at the commuting allowance. Even now they haven't done anything with the others, like layover or accommodation.
Gambate.
QUOTE "One of the factors is western ego's playing a part. When you put two guys together for such a long period, it becomes tense and invariably there is competition between the guys and animosity."
This came from an ANA Captain that authorised more sim for two guys. It is only a factor, it was mean't as advice to someone on course now or considering it.
Yes, I'm one of You. I knew Ishiyama and god damn it he had wide head. I know Kobi went sailing off the end off NRT 'B' runway. The Spud won't make a basket ball player and the red book is a great read.
I share the sentiment of your comment about paying conditions not attracting the people that they want. Like from the majors.
The other airlines are much quicker to adapt to the changing labour market. It took ANA six years and a 50% devaluation of the currency to even look at the commuting allowance. Even now they haven't done anything with the others, like layover or accommodation.
Gambate.
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Anyone hear about May 08 classes. I have been offered a position in Feb 08, by Crew. Suppose to hear about a class date in April. Kind of short notice but anyone with a skinny would be appreciated.
My understanding was that there is an AJV class in July 08. Heard that they run 3 classes a year--spring, summer, and fall. Any idea if the AJV/AJX candidates are all placed in the same classes?
Jepp
Thanks Jepp for the Info. I was getting worried since I'm on the street with no US prospects for employment. (Got fired for refusing to fly un-airworthy A/C.) Damb regional airlines.
Thanks again Jepp
My understanding was that there is an AJV class in July 08. Heard that they run 3 classes a year--spring, summer, and fall. Any idea if the AJV/AJX candidates are all placed in the same classes?
Jepp
Thanks Jepp for the Info. I was getting worried since I'm on the street with no US prospects for employment. (Got fired for refusing to fly un-airworthy A/C.) Damb regional airlines.
Thanks again Jepp
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Yes, AJV/AJX candidates are placed in the same class during ground school and SIM. Then they go their separate ways during OJT
Good luck to the new folks starting class
Thanks Dominican, I hope to be flying with you one of these days. I and the rest of the new people thank you for your help.
CA777
Good luck to the new folks starting class
Thanks Dominican, I hope to be flying with you one of these days. I and the rest of the new people thank you for your help.
CA777
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Thanks Dominican, I hope to be flying with you one of these days. I and the rest of the new people thank you for your help.
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Why would you want to do that to yourself? didn't you read what "oldhasbeen" posted?
Well yeh, but I have flown with 250hr TT Fo's that made me want to kiss the ground when we hit the ground.
Well yeh, but I have flown with 250hr TT Fo's that made me want to kiss the ground when we hit the ground.
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1. Are there any western "gaijin" pilots that fly the 747 or 777 for ANA?
No, the outsourcing agreement with the Japanese Pilots Association restricts it to the 767 and smaller. Although not by name per say but by size, the word around the camp is that the 787 would fall within the parameters of the language.
2. Is there a "glass-ceiling" for foreign national pilots...only slotted onto the Dash8s, 737s, and 767s? How high up the pay scale can western pilots climb?
Like I stated before, yes. Working for one of these companies that are part of the ANA group (AJX,AJV,ANK,A-Net) Is all by contract and this includes the Japanese F/O's and some of the Japanese Captains. There are other Japanese captains that are assigned to duty in these companies but they are really ANA employees, not under contract. As to how high the pay scale? The contract value, that is it
3. Is there a different pay-scale for Japanese pilots flying the same a/c?
Like I said before, the contract Japanese pilots (F/O's and Cap.) sign the same contract we do. The ANA line pilots that are assigned by ANA to these certificates have their own pay scales (ANA mainline pay and benefits) I have no Idea as to what their pay is, but I have a feeling is a little better than ours
4. If one were to fly 4 consecutive 5-year contracts at ANA (20 years) what sort of retirement package, if any at all, would one receive from CReW, or PARC or ANA?
As a contract pilot you are NOT employed directly by ANA, you are officially an employee of the contract agency. They do offer a retirement plan and a sum is deposited into it for the purpose of retirement
5. What contract do the Japanese pilots sign? Years of service requirment? Pension plan?
Read above
6. From what I read about the high failure rate on recent courses, I assume that the root cause has been the pilot's attitude. Adjust to the Japanese way or have your course status adjusted. Not a question.
In a nutshell, yes.
No, the outsourcing agreement with the Japanese Pilots Association restricts it to the 767 and smaller. Although not by name per say but by size, the word around the camp is that the 787 would fall within the parameters of the language.
2. Is there a "glass-ceiling" for foreign national pilots...only slotted onto the Dash8s, 737s, and 767s? How high up the pay scale can western pilots climb?
Like I stated before, yes. Working for one of these companies that are part of the ANA group (AJX,AJV,ANK,A-Net) Is all by contract and this includes the Japanese F/O's and some of the Japanese Captains. There are other Japanese captains that are assigned to duty in these companies but they are really ANA employees, not under contract. As to how high the pay scale? The contract value, that is it
3. Is there a different pay-scale for Japanese pilots flying the same a/c?
Like I said before, the contract Japanese pilots (F/O's and Cap.) sign the same contract we do. The ANA line pilots that are assigned by ANA to these certificates have their own pay scales (ANA mainline pay and benefits) I have no Idea as to what their pay is, but I have a feeling is a little better than ours
4. If one were to fly 4 consecutive 5-year contracts at ANA (20 years) what sort of retirement package, if any at all, would one receive from CReW, or PARC or ANA?
As a contract pilot you are NOT employed directly by ANA, you are officially an employee of the contract agency. They do offer a retirement plan and a sum is deposited into it for the purpose of retirement
5. What contract do the Japanese pilots sign? Years of service requirment? Pension plan?
Read above
6. From what I read about the high failure rate on recent courses, I assume that the root cause has been the pilot's attitude. Adjust to the Japanese way or have your course status adjusted. Not a question.
In a nutshell, yes.
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pension/pay changes?
Hi,
I happened to stop by the HACs website today and noticed a curious change. Although they still mention the "new pension program" in the text of the web page, the pay summary has been changed to reflect the old (higher) basic salary and the pension contribution column has been eliminated. I assume this is due to the weak dollar and the monetary hardship it has caused the guys from outside the US? Or is there something more interesting going on? Anyone with rumors or comments?
I happened to stop by the HACs website today and noticed a curious change. Although they still mention the "new pension program" in the text of the web page, the pay summary has been changed to reflect the old (higher) basic salary and the pension contribution column has been eliminated. I assume this is due to the weak dollar and the monetary hardship it has caused the guys from outside the US? Or is there something more interesting going on? Anyone with rumors or comments?
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Yo Dominican,
Did you really say....."The ANA line pilots that are assigned by ANA to these certificates have their own pay scales (ANA mainline pay and benefits) I have no Idea as to what their pay is, but I have a feeling is a little better than ours" bwahahahah.
You crack me up compadre(check spelling), a little better?!? You've been eating too many funny little potatos up here bro, pay....try 3 times for the average line guys, 4 times or more for the managers(non union pilots). Acutally it would be even more in your case as you are on 'C' scale right, been here less then a year on the wonderful new Potato contract.
Did you really say....."The ANA line pilots that are assigned by ANA to these certificates have their own pay scales (ANA mainline pay and benefits) I have no Idea as to what their pay is, but I have a feeling is a little better than ours" bwahahahah.
You crack me up compadre(check spelling), a little better?!? You've been eating too many funny little potatos up here bro, pay....try 3 times for the average line guys, 4 times or more for the managers(non union pilots). Acutally it would be even more in your case as you are on 'C' scale right, been here less then a year on the wonderful new Potato contract.