R/T status in KL FIR
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: malaysia
Posts: 404
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Descent profiles and speed restrictions
Hello QNH1013...The current procedure for descent speeds are worked out by the FLOW Controller. He calculates landing times of all arriving acft based on a 100NM ring from VKL. Once this time has been established, he/she will work out the restrictions. Examples wud be like this : MH123 X ISTAN AT XXXXUTC or MH123 speed 270kts. on descent or Cruise and Descend 250kts. All these is done to achieve spacing for the Approach Ctler. Hence when a speed or crossing a waypoint restriction appears on the radar screens, the sector Ctler will abide by it. Remember, these timings are worked out for all Sectors by a single Ctler. While all these are being set, someone arriving from the south or west or north may have done a manouvere which may have resulted in say a minute lost. Hence the sudden decision made by FLOW to now give a descent speed to someone else who was actually told earlier to maintain High Speed. All these decisions are made by the FLOW Controller which every Sector CTler has to follow.This is Radar Procedure. Of course, sector ctlers can also vector out an acft from a normal profile to help out the Apch Ctler. These all depends on real time traffic management. Then again weather plays a part. Drop by my friend at the ACC at Subang. We welcome u with open arms and a good strong handshake.
INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: Europe
Posts: 350
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks veloo for the info and invitation. I see, so it's other sector traffic that changes things. Somtimes it's like the controller can't make up his/her mind. We always plan 250kts below 10,000ft anyway but if before decent ATC want a particular speed, appreciate if the flow controller can give that info or a time restriction at XXX point as easly as possible. I for one will make sure all speeds are complied with as soon as possible. I'm sure other pilots would agree, we would rather have speed restrictions imposed rather than holding.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Stormy Peninsular
Posts: 153
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have got a question. I have expeienced a few times on approach for landing in KUL, the wrong frequency or runway is given.
For example on calling established Localiser 14L, Approach would say "Call Tower 118.5" and just last night on approach 32L, the guy on Tower said "Continue Approach, Number 2, 32R".
Are these mistakes due to them working on other frequencies too or just fatique or any other reasons? I understand people do make mistakes, but on established 32L and getting a call "Continue Approach 32R" does waste a few seconds to try to figure out whether its my mistake or the ATC's mistake in such a critical phase of a flight.
Thanks for the help. Lady on 124.2 last night was great.
For example on calling established Localiser 14L, Approach would say "Call Tower 118.5" and just last night on approach 32L, the guy on Tower said "Continue Approach, Number 2, 32R".
Are these mistakes due to them working on other frequencies too or just fatique or any other reasons? I understand people do make mistakes, but on established 32L and getting a call "Continue Approach 32R" does waste a few seconds to try to figure out whether its my mistake or the ATC's mistake in such a critical phase of a flight.
Thanks for the help. Lady on 124.2 last night was great.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Kuala Lumpur
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
QNH1013
The FLOW controller actually works out all the speed requirements or crossing time requirements or holding instructions way before the top of descent. Therefore the most probable reasons that you get it late are:
a) you are inbound from PK or PADLI. By the time Singapore tranfers you to us at PK or PADLI, you are already coming to top of descent; or
b) controller oversight - yes, unfortunately that happens.
When you contact Approach 124.2 or 119.45, the sequence will work provided the guy supposed to be in front does not deviate due weather or leave the holding pattern a couple of minutes. Either one of the above happens, all the earlier planning goes out the window. You may be asked to increase speed when asked to descend at 260 knots earlier or you may be asked to reduce speed when you have just been asked to maintain high speed.
Bottom line is the FLOW controller's plan is based on everything going on smoothly - weather wise etc. Many a time they don't and the Approach controller has to revise the plans thus giving pilots the impression that en-route and FLOW controllers are not in synch.
Hope this gives you a better picture.
a) you are inbound from PK or PADLI. By the time Singapore tranfers you to us at PK or PADLI, you are already coming to top of descent; or
b) controller oversight - yes, unfortunately that happens.
When you contact Approach 124.2 or 119.45, the sequence will work provided the guy supposed to be in front does not deviate due weather or leave the holding pattern a couple of minutes. Either one of the above happens, all the earlier planning goes out the window. You may be asked to increase speed when asked to descend at 260 knots earlier or you may be asked to reduce speed when you have just been asked to maintain high speed.
Bottom line is the FLOW controller's plan is based on everything going on smoothly - weather wise etc. Many a time they don't and the Approach controller has to revise the plans thus giving pilots the impression that en-route and FLOW controllers are not in synch.
Hope this gives you a better picture.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: malaysia
Posts: 404
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Spoken English
Hi flyers..just back from visiting a couple of towers up north in Peninsular Malaysia. Paid particular attention to the way English was spoken. Personally I feel that there is much room for improvement. What say u guys? Any constructive suggestions. Do u guys have any problems understanding what our ATClers are saying easily or is it with difficulty on your side?
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Stormy Peninsular
Posts: 153
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I personally do not find any difficulty understanding. Maybe because I am Malaysian and I am used to the way Malaysians talk. On rare occasions though I do have to pause 2 seconds and think of what the controller is saying. But that's mostly due to inexperience.
Mr Veloo, what does ACD mean?
Mr Veloo, what does ACD mean?
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Uptown
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I spoke to few mates at Cathay Pacific and they said the standard of English of Malaysian ATCers are generally good but would prefer to stick their RT to standard phraseology to avoid confusion.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: malaysia
Posts: 404
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
English as she is broken
Hi flyers..tks for the inputs...first things first
Chrome...ACD stands for Airways Clearance Delivery. This unit is based at the Subang ATCC. These are the guys whom u have to contact to get your airways clearance, better known to u as Delivery. U wud have observed that 95% of the clearance requests is given immediately (i.e within 20secs or so). This is due to the ATCler activating the Electronic Flight Strips(EFS). One has to activate it by placing the cursor on the flight strip and clicking the mouse.Only when a EFS is activated, the transponder appears. Sometimes delays in replies occurs when the system is slow in responding.There is also another term which u may have heard called the No PDC (Prior Departure Coordination). This method helps us to reduce coordination with adjacent ATCC like SIN/VTBB/VOMM etc. For eastbound to East Malaysia we have No PDC levels of F270/290/330. We do not have to coordinate with SIN. ACD will provide the clearances accordingly on a first come first served basis. For flights beyond East Msia, we have F270/290/320 (for RNP10 routes). For southbound to JKT and beyond, we have No PDC levels of 290 n 330. Other levels are subject to coordination from SIN. Hence the delay in giving an immediate clearance (eg F350/370/410 etc). We have to wait for the Sector Controller to activate the EFS.Sometimes delays occur due to EFS not appearing on the monitor screens due to various reason. Here the ATCler has to manually type in all the FPL details inorder to 'create' an EFS. Hope this helps though there is much more to explain.
Virtual Reality...tks..one reason, as u have mentioned is inexperience. The other one is due to many new controllers being trained all over the country to gain on-the-job experiences. Yes...we tend to deviate from the standard RT phraselogies many times though trained to speak according to the Manual of Air Traffic Services in the DCA College. The problem is that the OJT coaches themselves tend to deviate from std phraseologies. These poor trainees have no other choice but to follow the 'boss' in each shift. If u have time look into the ATC issues sections under ATC skills lost. Many ineteresting points in there.
Chrome...ACD stands for Airways Clearance Delivery. This unit is based at the Subang ATCC. These are the guys whom u have to contact to get your airways clearance, better known to u as Delivery. U wud have observed that 95% of the clearance requests is given immediately (i.e within 20secs or so). This is due to the ATCler activating the Electronic Flight Strips(EFS). One has to activate it by placing the cursor on the flight strip and clicking the mouse.Only when a EFS is activated, the transponder appears. Sometimes delays in replies occurs when the system is slow in responding.There is also another term which u may have heard called the No PDC (Prior Departure Coordination). This method helps us to reduce coordination with adjacent ATCC like SIN/VTBB/VOMM etc. For eastbound to East Malaysia we have No PDC levels of F270/290/330. We do not have to coordinate with SIN. ACD will provide the clearances accordingly on a first come first served basis. For flights beyond East Msia, we have F270/290/320 (for RNP10 routes). For southbound to JKT and beyond, we have No PDC levels of 290 n 330. Other levels are subject to coordination from SIN. Hence the delay in giving an immediate clearance (eg F350/370/410 etc). We have to wait for the Sector Controller to activate the EFS.Sometimes delays occur due to EFS not appearing on the monitor screens due to various reason. Here the ATCler has to manually type in all the FPL details inorder to 'create' an EFS. Hope this helps though there is much more to explain.
Virtual Reality...tks..one reason, as u have mentioned is inexperience. The other one is due to many new controllers being trained all over the country to gain on-the-job experiences. Yes...we tend to deviate from the standard RT phraselogies many times though trained to speak according to the Manual of Air Traffic Services in the DCA College. The problem is that the OJT coaches themselves tend to deviate from std phraseologies. These poor trainees have no other choice but to follow the 'boss' in each shift. If u have time look into the ATC issues sections under ATC skills lost. Many ineteresting points in there.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Alderaan
Posts: 168
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello Mates,
Just a complain or two that i would like to high light.
1. I've noticed Pen tower has made it a habbit of instructing guys to clear onto 'C' while we are half way tru our landing run,and at times, depending on the situation 'C' becomes a bit difficult unless u stamp on the brakes. Suggest they actually see that the aircraft can make 'C' before clearing them onto it.
2. Please do something about KCH atc! I personnally beleive that the controllers there are very conservative. For easterly dep's , we prefer rwy 07, it saves heap's of fuel. But the coordination between area control and tower is appauling. I was denied a 07 dep, only to spend a good 10 mins getting into rwy 25 when i could have departed in less than 5 from 07. To makes thigs worst, after airborne i found out that the closest a/c landing was 60nm's away! Then why couldnt i just have dep out of 07, would have saved me time, fuel and stress. I understand they are doing quite a bit of training at kch for the new atc'ers, but that does not meen they have to have an impact on normal ops.
Its just everytime im there, it just gets me frustrated with the level of in-efficiency.
Just a complain or two that i would like to high light.
1. I've noticed Pen tower has made it a habbit of instructing guys to clear onto 'C' while we are half way tru our landing run,and at times, depending on the situation 'C' becomes a bit difficult unless u stamp on the brakes. Suggest they actually see that the aircraft can make 'C' before clearing them onto it.
2. Please do something about KCH atc! I personnally beleive that the controllers there are very conservative. For easterly dep's , we prefer rwy 07, it saves heap's of fuel. But the coordination between area control and tower is appauling. I was denied a 07 dep, only to spend a good 10 mins getting into rwy 25 when i could have departed in less than 5 from 07. To makes thigs worst, after airborne i found out that the closest a/c landing was 60nm's away! Then why couldnt i just have dep out of 07, would have saved me time, fuel and stress. I understand they are doing quite a bit of training at kch for the new atc'ers, but that does not meen they have to have an impact on normal ops.
Its just everytime im there, it just gets me frustrated with the level of in-efficiency.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: malaysia
Posts: 404
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unacceptable delays.
Hello Rage...tks for the highlights. Yeap I quite agree with you that ATC inefficiency still exists in radar environment. News is that radar blips dissappear as soon as they are identified in many parts of East Malaysia due to terrain and other technical reasons. Hence too much of procedural control sets in and believe it or not it is a norm for radar controllers in the east to apply procedural methodologies in such environment. Couple it with traning sessions and u go thru situations just as u did.
As for PEN, all Aerodrome CTLers are to watch the speed of all acft that has just landed before giving taxiing instructions. I will speak to the Tower SATCO and set some wrongs right.
As for KCH, I will ask my colleague at the HQ to look into it and try to improve the part on being expeditious. Keep in touch.
As for PEN, all Aerodrome CTLers are to watch the speed of all acft that has just landed before giving taxiing instructions. I will speak to the Tower SATCO and set some wrongs right.
As for KCH, I will ask my colleague at the HQ to look into it and try to improve the part on being expeditious. Keep in touch.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: PKR Party
Posts: 135
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good co-ordination today (09 July) between the KUL CONTROL and APPROACH. Landed and departed KLIA twice, good to hear 2 Controller over the tower 118.8 freq.
If only 14R (A6 and beyond) also made available in the afternoon & night,
things could be much better!
Keep up the good work!
If only 14R (A6 and beyond) also made available in the afternoon & night,
things could be much better!
Keep up the good work!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: malaysia
Posts: 404
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Military Aerodromes
Sorry brother...out of our limits. Exactly what is the problem? May try to slow talk with KUA but LBU is way out. Currently I am teaching/training some staff in Approach Procedure Control in the DCA College. Replies may be delayed. Kindly be patient.Will try to solve as much problems as possible with the available time. Glad to see u guys posting positive notes about our ATClers. Tks guys.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Alderaan
Posts: 168
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Vello old boy, ive seen some good controlling of late at klia and app, maybe we should keep the rwy closed for a lot longer. Anyway, small point if you could kindly relay to grnd control. I think its about time they stop giving 14L/MS and stuff like that, coz here we are on the high speed taxi out and we get clearence like that, it only makes us stamp on the brakes while the poor F/O tries to figure what it means. Maybe the initial clearence could be the taxi route like take next right on to T2 and call grnd on 122.15, and let the othere guy issue the rest of the taxi clearence based on the taxiway names. It helps me coz ill be looking out and i can see the boards all over , makes it easier for us, and im sure for the controllers as well, seeing so many lanes are now close.
The Rage
The Rage
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Home
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Veloo,
I have got a suggestion to be passed on to KLIA TWR and GRD.
After landing RWY 14L, we usually exit at A6 then we get a taxi clearance like this:
"MH 1234 clear taxi to bay A2 right, via taxi route 14L MS"
Nothing wrong there except:
We are now on taxiway A.
Just as we approach B8, we are told to change frequency, and we ussually get a hold short of Bravo even when there is no traffic.
Same scenario on departure. when we taxi out we get a taxi clearance all the way to the holding point, only to be told hold short of Bravo, just as we change over to another freq.
Maybe we can look at a smoother taxi instruction scheme.
Thanks for the great help with this thread again Veloo.
I have got a suggestion to be passed on to KLIA TWR and GRD.
After landing RWY 14L, we usually exit at A6 then we get a taxi clearance like this:
"MH 1234 clear taxi to bay A2 right, via taxi route 14L MS"
Nothing wrong there except:
We are now on taxiway A.
Just as we approach B8, we are told to change frequency, and we ussually get a hold short of Bravo even when there is no traffic.
Same scenario on departure. when we taxi out we get a taxi clearance all the way to the holding point, only to be told hold short of Bravo, just as we change over to another freq.
Maybe we can look at a smoother taxi instruction scheme.
Thanks for the great help with this thread again Veloo.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: malaysia
Posts: 404
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Smooth Controlling
Chrome...Fair Pilot has answered your query to your thread on 121.65.
Brian...I have relayed the requests to my buddies at KLIA and they will smoothen up things soon...tks 4 being patient.
Brian...I have relayed the requests to my buddies at KLIA and they will smoothen up things soon...tks 4 being patient.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Stormy Peninsular
Posts: 153
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fair.Pilot, but this wasn't the case of Tower 118.8 being in charge of Ground 121.65. It was Ground 121.65 being in charge of Tower 118.8, giving instructions to aircraft on approach and giving clearances to land and takeoff. Well I know it's not that important but I was just wondering why. No biggie.
Hi Brianigham. I don't see what's the big nuisance in having 2 Ground frequencies on arrival. Just anticipate and change frequencies when asked to with just a push of the freq transfer button. Why is that not 'smooth'?
We have 2 Ground frequencies monitoring arriving/departing traffic for the 2 runways (121.8/121.65) and 5 other Ground frequencies concentrating on monitoring ingoing/outgoing traffic, manoeuvring instructions, push/start clearances and for aircraft towing in their own specialised areas in the various terminals and cargo aprons in KLIA. There's nothing wrong with that system in my mind.
Hi Brianigham. I don't see what's the big nuisance in having 2 Ground frequencies on arrival. Just anticipate and change frequencies when asked to with just a push of the freq transfer button. Why is that not 'smooth'?
We have 2 Ground frequencies monitoring arriving/departing traffic for the 2 runways (121.8/121.65) and 5 other Ground frequencies concentrating on monitoring ingoing/outgoing traffic, manoeuvring instructions, push/start clearances and for aircraft towing in their own specialised areas in the various terminals and cargo aprons in KLIA. There's nothing wrong with that system in my mind.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Home
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Chrome,I have nothing against 2 frequencies on the ground, air or even in the flightdeck sir.
How many we have , I am sure is decided by people in the know and who have put in some very insightful and real time research.
The help I needed from Veloo, was to pass on some info to ground control.
There are quite often " conflicting " clearances from one ground controller to another. IE one clears you all the way to the bay and then passes you on to the next chap who issues a " standard " "Hold short of bravo".
Many a time this can happen just as you are crossing bravo or approaching bravo.
A few of the guys were talking about this at the crew room in KLIA. We feel it might just be bordering dangerous. All of us in the room that day have experienced some cowboy like taxi speedsters who "potong trip". Coupled with this we thought that it might look like the perfect brew for disaster. So I told the guys I will jot down a quick note here at the most proactive thread I have experienced.
I am quite used to different "ground area" control. Zoning if you like. Some airports even have different GOV agencies controlling different areas an the ground. Sorry if I wasn't clear on what I was suggesting earlier.