Apparently the Hong Kong Immigration Department has had a little say in the matter.

More Bad news
 

Just a few things..

Being employed as "skilled" labour IE >250hrs by law you are entitled to a full Expat allowance (Which they are currently not paying due a new discrimination law Expats vs Locals which would work if you were employed with 0 hrs)

1) Now that you are classed as "skilled labour" that is not found in HK ie >250hrs there is no discrimination and are be entitled to full expat allowances!! and is not effected by this law as I understand.
So here starts a major stumbling point going fwd.

2) The repayment of failed training is seems but also illegal in HK courts.(As I understand) No Training bonds are allowed in HK. But hey are you going to win a court battle with CX? No!

3) Forgivable loan - Being a Loan, and for the FULL PERIOD it is still classed as a loan the HK banks will not allow you to get a Mortgage until the "forgivable loan" is complete i.e. the full term has run it course. Thus you cannot buy property here for 6 years? (Not sure the term of the commitment is?)

4) Forgivable loan - Is fully taxed from the start after 12months. So beware!

5) Experience - S/O time is making beds etc, no real joy in flying and ****ty rest..which counts nothing if you plan on leaving. You'll need 5/6 years to upgrade to JFO. Followed by at least 3 yrs of experience before being able to move on. Total 8-10yrs commitment

Thus Make Sure you are < 22yrs and single willing to flat share for all that time.

Guys with CPL with enough hours would be better to suited to work in GA etc..

>25yrs and Married & not planning to be single with partners not working in HK- Forget it!!

Anyway ask the HKAOA for advice, they will hopefully tell you more truths than the company. After all it is now known they are neg hiring DEFO again soon I heard. If these are done in big numbers expect time to JFO to be 6yrs.. Have you got protection in your contract? It does not matter anyway as you will lose the case aka SW case where he lost S/O BPP appeal. So CX will talk to you like many of you talk to a blue eyed blonde on a first date!

But then you have time on your side as you are young so go for if <22yrs.
> 22yrs with experience go to Qatar as S/O. Or work G/A its very rewarding life experience there will always be time for "less trilling" airline flying later on.

But i'm talking to a wall no doubt. :ugh:

Anyway I hope CX will do the right thing but many will agree, that is doubtful.

www.hkaoa.org/public/hkaoa/contact.jsp

Address : Hong Kong Aircrew Officers Association
5th Floor Daily House
35-37 Haiphong Road
Tsim Sha Tsui, Kowloon
Hong Kong

Tel : +852 2736 0823
Fax : +852 2736 0903
E-mail : [email protected]

Hi crewsunite,

I have found the book "49ers" in the university library and realized most of the cons that you and other IDs (e.g. Dan, China) mentioned are inconveniently true (given that Mr. John Warham put down the facts). It is the attitude and actions of Cathay's management level that makes me hesitate now (I am currently awaiting the third round interview).

As a local Chinese, unfortunately, I cannot achieve my dream of flying by other means, since there is actually no affordable general aviation programs in Hong Kong. Nor could I afford training or obtaining license abroad.

The question is, given the history and current situation, could you foresee any possibility of improvement of the relation between management and the pilot crew in Cathay? Or would the newly entered cadets suffer from the similar experience like the one between 1994-1998?

I appreciate the people in AOA who pay their efforts to ensure flight safety and defend service quality.

Thank you!

As a local you should go for it 100%! This program was designed for you in the 1st place. And we should have many more locals to balance out Expats.

But having "Expats" under locals terms are wrong!

There are thousands of Local HK's whom would love to work for CX and should. Cx need's to make up about 30% of there intake as local Cadets.

But some very experienced Expats with families etc. are moving onto other carriers due to terms here. This is wrong as this airline seriously needs those candidates which the fleet offices are crying out for.

I'm actually very surprised the local media have not picked up on this injustice.
CX are outsourcing jobs to foreigners under hidden pretenses.

etc...
Anway as a local with experience and years behind you, you could always move to HKA as hear some locals plan to once its proven to be up and running successfully.

Good luck..

(DEFO B744 may be on USA bases not HK)

How long does a base need to be open for? 1 day?
Or maybe change those procedures if things are desperate in terms of crewing. What can we do?
Call the AOA, well start by calling them now and asking what the have planned if this happens?

Crewsunite

CX can't offer DEFO on bases before they offered these vacancies to us via a Basings bid. Only leftover vacancies after the Basings bid closes can be offered to new hires.

If the DEFO hirings will begin, do you guys think that the old salary package will come back or not? I don't think it will.. I think it will all change now..

Illustrator - well done on also having the common sense & maturity to research the job. Warham's book cemented my belief that my decision to turn down CX's offer was the correct one.

But still too many here wish to bank (yes, literally "BANK") a 30-40 year career based on pipe dreams, wishful thinking & hopes that CX are not as immoral, ruthless, greedy & as devious as their past 20 years has overwhelmingly PROVEN. Nothing in Warham's book could have been published in not 100% true for fear of litigation.

Why do you think CX use the "Tell us about a time when...." interview technique? Because all personality traits & studies prove that one's past behaviour is the greatest predictor of one's future behaviour. What does CX's past workplace relations tell you about them? C'mon people! Open your eyes & remove your head from the sand!!!!!

As for DEFO.... That'll be interesting. Imagine being 6000+ hr pilot with 1000's of hours jet time yet holding a seniority number behind a kid with either zero hours or a fresh CPL. He / she will reach command faster than you. Thats the seniority system which is the backbone of this profession - & rightly so. So by logic you may only be lucky enough to maybe, just maybe gain a Command in the final years of your career.

That kid who was your SO asking you about little things like V1 or high altitude swept wing ops & VMCA, who all but needs a change of underwear when a pretty FA enters the cockpit or even acknowledges him is now your Capt. How many are going to go for that with this bull$hit housing package???!!!!

If you've the runs on the board to go DEFO then at the very least I'd think most credible pilots would work for an airline where at the very least their employment rights are protected.

CX offer a DEFO what therefore??

turned cathay down
 

Thanks for all the advice everyone gave me. Much to the disbelief of many around me, I turned the cx cpp down. I may only be 21 but instead of using that as the reason to go to CX, I see at as a reason to venture into GA and soon enough I can be owning my own hours in the right hand seat of narrow body jet within the next 2 years (or even 6 months if i'm lucky). There are plenty of other reasons to not join CX anyways, many if not all are mentioned here on these forums hopefully all of you have taken the time to read them. I hope nobody will be pissed off with my decision as I know a lot of you wannabes would do anything to have been in my position. Good luck to everyone in their careers :ok:

I will still stay on this forum and help out when I can, in the meantime, wannabes I highly recommend that you do listen to those superiors around you. They are not angry at you or trying to stop you from following your dreams, they are simply angry at what CX is doing and what this industry is becoming, and trying to help you open your eyes so you CAN follow your dreams, rather than live a nightmare.

Em773ER

GTC58

Please don't ever start a sentence with "CX can't ......." everyone knows CX can and does whatever it wants.

EM773ER

Well done, good luck in the future, I really hope you get the chance to join CX as a DEFO on expat terms!!! Please keep your progress updated it'll be interesting to follow your career vs an iCadet's.

Hello all,

Hong Kong PR living in Vancouver here.
Applied to the Cadet program mid 2011, and I just got the e-mail early yesterday morning to attend the stage 1 interview in Hong Kong next month. Anyone else get the call?

currently on the 27th page of this epic thread... it's going to be a long night!

hello, nice to meet u
u had waited for stage 1 interview for 6 months after application? such a long period...
i have sumbitted my application 1 months ago,
how's your preparation?

Yes I kind of forgot that I applied and gave up already...

As I do have some very basic aviation knowledge, the booklet that they sent me this morning looks like it would mostly be review for myself. Maybe another read of the From the Ground Up and I'll be set for the general aviation knowledge section. As for some of the historical stuff, I'll just have to look further into the company history and get to know my potential employer.

And if you are serious about that comment do the following:

Step 1) read John Warham's book "The 49ers- The True Story".
Step 2) read the terms and conditions of this C Scale offer whereby CX management use the despicable term "discrimination" as a means to lower pilots' remuneration as well as a tool to divide and conquer.
Step 3) read through the 2 x forums under Fragrant Harbour and read all the threads commenting on the iCadet package.

There's your history lesson.

What does a pilot get for some out of uniform private pictures stolen from his computer and posted on the internet? Fired.

What does management get for committing purgery in court, for knowingly and deliberately lying to its staff, for getting caught not once but twice for illegal price fixing costing MILLIONS, for completely screwing up fuel hedging again at a cost of MILLIONS, for completely screwing up pilots' basings, and so on, and so on.....??? Massive bonuses.

M Taylor

Still haven't read the changes on here. Mind if you can direct me to the posts that talk about these changes? (I'm still on page 130, so if it's recent I'll get up to it soon).

Also, you have to remember, like what crewsunite said, that this programme was designed for locals (Hong Kong), where flying opportunities is very low and very expensive. I can barely afford the PPL course at the Hong Kong Aviation Club.

Btw, they hardly update their careers website. It's been a year and a bit (or maybe even two) and the only change I've noticed was the application page saying "ONLY recruiting Second Officers." At the time I was applying, it seemed that FOs were able to apply.

kitcanfly

Six months to a year is normal waiting time. Just keep that in mind and study everyday, you'll be almost prepared by the time you get an invite.

ChinaBeached


Been meaning to buy and read that book. Hopefully I can find it in the local book shops.

Stage 2
 

Anybody here doing stage 2/3 on 16/17 feb in hong kong can get in touch via pm.

Chinabeached

thanks for all your facts
I'll pass your recommendations since I have already read your novel throughout the 150+ posts in this thread.

I want to know more about your background, what exactly did they do to you that prompted you to dig so deep into their corporate "policies" and educate the world about them? were you one of the 49?

Would somebody please post an update of cx fleet by splitting it to individual variants and a/c numbers.Also, if possiple,current orders.Thanks

Hi All

Although I follow this thread, I normally try to stay out of it, and if I do comment, to at least try to stay positive about the iCadet program.

However, recent findings are slightly alarming and I feel it needs to be mentioned clearly.

1. From the latest HKAOA (Hong Kong Aircrew Officers Association) newsletter:

This is not yet confirmed, but clearly enough evidence exist for the AOA to put it in their newsletter.

I find this action by the company deplorable and future candidates will have to think really hard if the risk of paying HKD1.1M for failed training is worth it.

2. Also from the AOA newsletter comes news of the first iCadet trying to buy property in Hong Kong using the forgiveable loan received after training.

His attempt failed when he could not get a homeloan approved from the HKMC (Hong Kong Mortgage Corp). The reason was that they saw the forgiveable loan as a liability and not a deposit.

Although there are ways to buy property without using the HKMC, it will be very difficult as you will have to put down a 30% to 50% (depending on the property price) deposit. If you look at property prices in HKG you'll see that this would be a substabtial amount of money.

Personally I feel that it is very important to own property as part of one's financial portfolio and also as a retirement asset. With this new problem it will be almost impossible for new joiners to buy unless you come to HKG with a big lump sum of cash.

3. Rumours abound about the Hong Kong Immigration Department not granting Work Permits to non-Hong Kong Residents with less than 250 hours.

This problem was discovered early last year, but was apparently solved by CX during talks with the Immigration Department.

I am not sure whether the rumours are resurfacing or if the problem was in fact not solved.

I stuck my head into the recruitment office yesterday and asked the question very specifically. The answer was that the current requirements as per the website is still accurate but that there are "possible problems" with the Immigration Department.
I could not get hold of Rachel, but will see if I can contact her next week to get a better answer.

If this rumour is true, we will in any case get confirmation from guys that is busy with their training in Adelaide.



So, all in all the new terms offered by CX seems to be getting worse while a lot of people were hoping that in the face of a apparent pilot shortage it would get better.

I am not saying don't join CX, but the above issues needs to be factored into every potential applicant's decisions.

Regards and as always, PM me anytime if you need more info.
PP

flyber:

I cant help saying that you are too lazy: Cathay Pacific - About Us : CX Background

Pitot Probe
 

thanks for sharing this info, even though they are just rumors. as a wannabe icadet i am, applied quite recently, i'm thinking about that 1.1M payback to the company in case of failure. all right, as a passionate and willing to give the best everytime, that is quite scary anyway!! :ugh:

does anybody who's about to start training at the FTA have any news regarding this rumor?

Thanks for posting the information in such an objective manner.
But holy cow 1.1M HKD?

I can get the same training here for less than 50,000CAD....

Picard.....
and yet within the next 2 or 3 pages someone will ask the same mundane and ignorant questions. "What engines to CX have on their aircraft" (because I'm too "passionate" to bother to find facts elsewhere)...."I can't update my profile...".....and so on.

In all honesty if you'd read my previous posts here and the other threads then you'd know exactly my background, as well as my angst against CX which I make no apologies for. But the main point you ask is why did I dig so deep into CX's corporate policies. As for educating the world about them, well when so many here bring to the table their "passion" yet utter ignorance to the real world let alone facts of the job I wish to pass on some truths. Where I've been incorrect I've always been happy for the input. Would you allow a colleague to fly an aircraft knowing full well a serious CAT A MEL item affecting the safe & correct operation of the flight existed & you know full well they are too lazy and incompetent to check the flight deck log before the flight? It's not only about the pilot(s) but the operation they are in and contribute toward. The more people who know the truths and facts about CX and this scam then the better.

So, why dig so deep? Because if you don't then I believe you to be an idiot. Sorry, but I mean that. So many kids want to throw up to 45 years of their life starting from this iCadet program failing to comprehend the exact nature, terms, conditions, city, costs, long term future and management history of the job...... And then I use that word "comprehend" because all too often we're met with those not wanting the information or denying bare faced facts and realities. And, as with all jobs I've ever had I can't stand pilots who would sell their soul for the job, get it, and then once checked to line join the brigade of hating the job they asked for, studied for and then received. Any person blindly signing any contract without knowing the full and complete facts of what it means, what it does and does not encompass as well as the company behind is just that - a fool. And what's the saying? "A fool and his money are easily parted"????

Based on this thread most iCadet desperadoes do more research and take more consideration into their next xBox console than they do about this CEP and what it represents to CX and the industry as a whole.

yes i know that's where the problem lies.. let's see how and if this rumor develops..

@ChinaBeached I know an ex CHIEF pilot of Cathay and have talked to him about pay, conditions etc. He said that living in HK and flying with Cathay was the best experience of his life, and it was hard to leave (he left due to personal reasons).
If you think the conditions in HK are bad, then try living in Australia! Everything is so much more expensive in Aus than anywhere else in the world, yet people live in good conditions on far worse pay than is quoted by CX.

truss20
 

For him as a Chief pilot he would have been at CX for a while, therefore he would most likely have been on the old A-scale contract with a housing allowance + other benefits... for you you would be on the "c-scale" which is a whole different game...

CB: Sorry if this has been bought up before: Do you mind me asking what you do now after you rejected the new contract? Judging by what you post you are now in a far better position than if you took the new CX contract, the holiday home you were talking about a few pages back sounds rather nice! :}

What he said.

Ex chief pilot. He was on A scale for all of his career. His provident fund alone would be multi million AU$. He would have made multiple millions of AU$ during his time at CX. He probably has multiple luxury properties all over the world either empty as holiday homes or rented out providing a nice income for retirement.

You on the other hand, Truss20, will spend your WHOLE career paying off an 800sqft place in a not too fancy location in HKG, maybe you will be able to upgrade to a 1000-1500 sqft place by about age 45, extending the mortgage for another 10 or so years.

His Hong Kong and your Hong Kong, if you join CX, are different worlds. Why do people find this concept so hard to understand. The contract you guys will join on is NOT sufficient for an expat to have a descent life and family in HKG. :ugh:

Pilot Referral
 

An Ex Chief Pilot was mentioned....I wonder if anyone knows if having an 'official' recommendation from a CX pilot on one's application makes any difference given the large number of applicants? I understand during the DEFO days, having a recommendation was huge to getting on top of the list, but is is the same with the cadet programme?

Then and Now
 

Then: A scale
Now: C scale

Then: Defined benefit Provident Fund
Now: (Percentage) defined contribution MPF

Then: A DFO who knew who you were and protected you from the clerks
Now: Who?

Then: Recruitment department staffed by CX
Now: Contracted company in CX City

Then: Valuable recommendation by current CX pilot
Now: Who are you and who do you work for?

Then: Medium or heavy jet command, combat fighter experience, minimum 5000 hours
Now: Thank G*D we have another applicant who can recognize an aircraft.

Then: Retire at 55 comfortable
Now: Age 65 or work till you die, choose one

Then: 76 hours per month, significant overtime pay
Now: 84 hours, work stacking

Then: 6 weeks pay plus 1 week non credit leave
Now: 2 weeks for first 4 years, then 6 weeks allocated, often denied, deferred

Then: First class FOC, unlimited FOC travel, affordable
Now: Cattle class at rates exceeding bucket shop prices, ZED fares, Bob N

Then: Simulator sandwiches, real coffee, First Class crew meals
Now: Wait till we've finished and chicken, beef, pasta and sorry no sandwiches.

Then: Voluntarily come to work early in case of Typhoon signal
Now: Mandated practices in case of T3

Then: Call us when you're healthy
Now: Sickness management (sic) program

Then: Lamma Channel Visual
Now: Pussies

Then: IGS 13
Now: You want me to do a WHAT?

And on, and on, and on. Please guys - don't be shy.

One more time: THIS ISN'T THE CATHAY YOU THINK IT IS.

Truss.... As per the other replies to your post - you are failing to consider the bigger picture of the CX then and the CX now. What's more, why is it no so obvious??!!

I bet the ex CP loved his time at CX. Why wouldn't he??
He was not on C-Scale.
He came to CX with experience.
He was paid as per the market rate for (expat) widebody airline pilots, and as per his role.
He received a housing allowance in line with the what he deserved.
He was able to save, look after a family (I assume) and educate his kids, retire comfortably.
On top of all that, he was the boss.

We could go on but Capt Undies put it so much better.

Now, which part of his career (anywhere!!) applies to the 2012 iCadet offering????

Ask him if he "enjoyed" the 49ers episode? Ask him if he "enjoyed" seeing his pay cut numerous times while those cutting it received bonuses? Ask him if he "enjoyed" the phone calls, letters and threats of "sign or be fired / never to be promoted"? Ask him if what he thinks of his bosses lying in court? Ask him if he "enjoyed" the instructors at AD having their signed contracts torn up?

Odd when a bigger picture is unveiled.....?????

If he was an Ex Chief Pilot, just maybe, he was immune to all the above, as he;
-would have been one of the * chamber,
-not had to sign or be fired,
-been one of them lying in court
-maybe got a command in 2 years
-received lots of bonuses
-started the 49ers episode.

Maybe.............

@ChinaBeached
I will ask him.
I have other info from him about pay, conditions etc. that DO apply to all.
You can be promoted from SO in 18 months.
The max time as SO is 4 years, of which your pay goes up by 50K annually, which starts at 422k a year. A lot compared to what most people in their early 20s earn.
You will be captain by the 12th year of employment, earning a minimum 1.2m annually.
You will be senior captain by the 14th year of employment. Payment increases until you earn 1.8m after 15 years.
You earn superannuation of 15.5%.
Education support for children in HK.
Medical insurance.
Share in company profits.
etc.

Plus, the money you earn from CX isn't your only source of revenue. Share dividends can earn tens of thousands of dollars a year if you invest correctly.

Don't be intimidated by what these clowns are going on about. I have talked with people who are on the board of CX! They resort to outrageous claims that "oh CX lie to us" etc. That's not a legitimate point in an argument.

I am going to apply for that Cadetship, and I hope like hell that I get it as it is a great opportunity that I don't want to slip by, and neither should anyone of you reading this post.

@ChinaBeached and all you Cathay cynics,

The maximum time you can spend as an SO is 4 years, of which your pay increases by 50k annually, starting at 422k.
The minimum time you can spend as an SO is 18 months.
The maximum time it can take to become a captain at Cathay is 12 years.
2 years later, you become a senior captain.
Your pay increases from 1.2m when you start as captain to 1.8m 15 years later.

You also get:
15.5% Superannuation contribution.
Medical insurance.
Education allowances for children studying in HK.
A share in company profits etc.

422k is a lot of money, especially for a person who will be in their early 20's, and it only increases from there.

This information comes from the chief pilot, who had a seat on the board.

In all honesty, you can be cynical of the program all you want. But in the end, those that do the program are going to benefit so much from it as it is FREE training (as opposed to spending 100k on training individually), you get to live in an awesome city and fly for one of the worlds most respected airlines.

I know which side I will be taking.

I am not saying that for a young guy with no family this is not something you should go for. It depends on your circumstances as to weather or not it is suitable.

Now back to your remarks.

We are NOT cathay cynics. A lot of us are currently employed pilots with CX.

18 months as an SO, 7 years ago maybe for a month before it went out again. In my opinion and many others CURRENTLY working for CX it will not be lower than 4 years till JFO again.

12 Years max till captain!!! Where are you getting this from. Suggest you check out the following thread.

http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbo...-f-o-life.html

Probably everyone posting is a CURRENT CX pilot in above thread. Is it mentioned anywhere that 12 years is the max that is expected.

You honestly sound like you are trying to wind people up. I hope so as to be that ill informed, about what will be at a minimum the next 10 years of your life till you can move on with transferable experience, is pretty amazing.

If you are for real I am amazed at your ignorance. By all means go for the scheme if it is suitable to you, it is a good deal for a new 0 time guy. But for gods sake know what you are getting into and not just listen to one ex pilot from the era when everyone wanted to be a pilot with CX.

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

Truss, this job is for you. It suits a naive and ignorant company stooge so you fit the bill.

Better still, best you remind them in the interview what your best mate the former CP told you to say. The irony here is that this ex CP whose picture I'm sure keep on your bedroom ceiling and another beside the kleenex told you the company has never lied.....? Too funny because he just lied to you!

18 months as SO and then you start swimming in money you say.....???:D What an idiot. Usually I do my best to tell others not to apply by use of cold undeniable facts, but the likes of you are suited to it all too well to bother.

You may be at FL410 but all the piloting world will still look down on you.

Truss20 you sound like our esteemed DFO. Could it possibly be RH in disguise???
:eek:

After reading all these comments - I think the cadet program is still the way to go for myself (that is... if I get it)

- I mean, my family is in Hong Kong to begin with...
- I have 0 actual flight time other than the 15 or so fam hours I've had through Air Cadets.

- Planning to move my sorry ass back to HK anyways... since living alone in Vancouver even with my above average wage right now is next to impossible.

- Canadian Airlines: oh don't even get me started
- The military route: glasses = immediate nono, unless your glasses are only needed for reading. Oh and how many fixed wing aircraft does the RCAF have? yeah...

- The only thing that really worries me right now is that 1.1million HKD training bond...

What a stupid uneducated statement!!! :yuk:

truss20 is management trying to turn this whole crappy package offering into a positive!! It is a complete windup!! :zzz:

You are a fool truss20. Pull your head in!! :=

Truss20...
 

...please stop the bull****...

Totally wrong...or did he tell you that as well???

I'm getting a Hernia just thinking about his name..............

Truss, company stooges and starry-eyed kids with SJS, as a twenty-plus year, current Cathay Pacific pilot, I can only urge you to engrave Capt. Underpants' post #3736 in your collective memories.

Given the current rate of expansion, the maximum possible training rate, future slot availability at Hong Kong etc, the time to command given to you by your high-powered friend is at best an incorrect assumption by an out-of-touch retiree, or at worst, an outright lie.