Cathay Pacific Cadet Pilot Programme

[JulianB]

Apart TR, can The HK CPL be converted to JAA in case an SO leaves the company after a couple of years?

[Cpt. Underpants]

AFAIK, no - it can't convert. I don't believe the FAA allow "conversion" of licenses from any country.

I think that there's a fair chance that they may recognize your hours, subject to audit of course.

Careful here, the so-called s/o "rating" is known as the P2X - you do a nominal technical conversion, but REALLY limited simulator and NO real aircraft bumps and grinds. Only a fraction of your "hours" count towards a higher license.

Just so you know...

As an s/o your duties are in flight relief only.

You're only allowed in a window seat above 20,000ft - so, no take offs or landings.

No FMC or cockpit setups.

Make the bunks (chocolate on the pillow not required but may get you brownie points!)

Eat the crap sandwiches (4th pick after CN, RLF, F/O).

R/T in cruise and fuel checks.

File the Jepp charts after landing.

For those who don't know about HKG girls - no money, no honey. You ain't getting nuttin' (they know about the ****e salary)

REPEAT. Three times monthly, for 6 years...

[JulianB]

for those who don't know about hkg girls - no money, no honey. You ain't getting nuttin' (they know about the ****e salary)

s l u t s.

[Stallone]

Cathay Pacific plane makes emergency landing

Steady CX715 pilot

[ChinaBeached]

Taken from the Fragrant Harbour forum, a brief summary: http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbo...0-numbers.html

Thanks to Capt. Underpants, SMOC and yokebearer:

CX made USD1.8 billion profit and pays staff 6 weeks bonus...

EK made USD1.6 billion profit and pays staff 12 weeks bonus.

I think what should be taken on board here is that SAA has a very strong union. And as a result they have managed to keep their contract conditions and pay at good levels. As opposed to CX...

SIA

Just over S1bn or 800 mill US profit (less than 1/2 of CX).

Profit Share

Mainline 3.5 months

Freight 2.4 months

And yet still CX opt for cheaper means to pay their pilots, and so many are blindly lining up to accept it in the face of this greedy and unscrupulous management. So do you still think CX are offering an "opportunity" as per the iCadet scheme or a grab for money to line their own (management) pockets at your expense throughout your entire tenure at CX?

How much more evidence do so many of you need??

[ETOPS240]

ChinaBeached,

I'm not looking for an argument, however, from another perspective -

SIA - bonuses for employees only, not contract pilots; as far as I'm aware, all expats at SIA nowadays are contract pilots.

On top of that, SIA salary is hugely inferior to CX's. In Singapore, cost of living is also very high. Not as high as Hong Kong, granted, but still a hell of a shock to someone coming from nigh-on anywhere else.

EK - Overall package at EK is OK. That said, I'm sure most at CX would rather count their bunk time as duty time, have actual flight time limitations and not live in Dubai. I folks think that employment practice in HK (or anywhere else, for that matter) is a little suspect, it pales into insignificance when compared to EK.

That said, of course it would have been great to have similar percentage bonuses to the aforementioned, but by no means does that make the grass greener over there.

Cheers.

[ChinaBeached]

Other educated and factual opinions are always welcomed. When we can't appreciate another's point of view then what's the point of a forum to discuss things? It's the mindless, ill informed and naive comments that are what all too often occurs on this thread unfortunately.

(What happened to "blacklabel's" posts? All deleted I see after being caught out. Too funny! And "slotsdown" has already passed the interviews and in a cockpit seat as he sees it!)

Yeah, it's not always apples and apples strictly speaking. My point was more as a general perspective. It would be better to gain a more ratio based appraisal of these stats.

My point is, and perhaps not well put above is that CX have record profits and offer their new pilots far, far less as a salary package as a result: the iCadet and HKPA. Get more, give less!!

And CX's history of living up to their word and respecting officers' terms and conditions? Or do they hunt for ways to change them, reduce them, lower them in the name of cost cutting: but not from their own pockets, instead to line them only. This is just something I wish these iCadet defenders and hopefuls would consider.

[ETOPS240]

Yeah, it's not always apples and apples strictly speaking. My point was more as a general perspective. It would be better to gain a more ratio based appraisal of these stats.

Aye, I doubt that you'd find too many people in disagreement on that. The rest - all been covered ad-nauseam. It's clear enough what side you're on regarding the subject, and I've no right to object to your opinions. I'm not suggesting they're different to mine, either. However, I will say that unfortunately, the industry has changed, and will continue to do so. Until a better/more viable alternative comes along, hopefuls will continue to apply in scores.

Yes, it's a large reduction in conditions, and yes, one can certainly object to the motives behind it. That said, to someone with little/no commercial experience, it does remain head and shoulders above their alternatives.

To that end, I think one must recognise why there are huge numbers of applicants, and accept the reality. Agreeing with it is somewhat irrelevant, but respecting someone's choice is surely something to behold. Provided, of course, it is an informed one.

Regarding the ill-informed, the naive, rude, self-righteous ones; well, I'm right with you. Hopefully Darwinnian mechanics will play a role along the way.

Cheers!

[tithybo]

Just to clarify

Hye all,
I just would like to be sure that I fully understand the current situation.
I am well aware of the new deal for the Cadet and second officer, and we have a detailed explanation in a previous post.
However, I don't know anything about the future deal for the first officer and captain (I mean, the deal in the future when the current cadet will get upgraded to FO or CPT later....)
Do anyone know some figures ? Because on the CX website, a few numbers are given, and they are pretty much the same as the one I can see on pilotjobsnetwork, which I guess are based on the current payscale. So, could anyone be more specific about what's going on please ?
And thanks everybody for the thread and information/warnings.

[ap_797]

Hi all,
I was wondering what the most common reasons are for candidates failing flight grading?

In terms of conversion to a JAA licence, can this be done once the rank of F/O is reached or is it simply a fact that a HK ATPL will never be able to be concerted to a JAA one? If the latter were true does this mean re-doing the whole ATPL course at a JAA approved institution?

Where in the world is the HK ATPL recognised and accepted? Can it be used to apply for jobs in Europe and the Middle East?

Any help would be great,

Thanks guys!

[hammerhead99]

New guy going to an Interview

Hello all, Hope everyones doing great

I'm a Canadian pilot who just finished my diploma, has appx.230 hrs in 152, 172 and BE-76 and I have my SO initial interview scheduled for the 24th in Vancouver.
I was hoping someone who reads this could give me some tips on what exactly to expect, what to wear, and what to study. I have a fair idea but would appreciate any aid.

I've been reading these posts and there seems to be alot of angst regarding the financial aspect of working for Cx but all I'm concerned with is passing the first interview lol.

Thanks for your time

[crwjerk]

I was wondering what the most common reasons are for candidates failing flight grading?

Don't know. Could be because;
1. The candidate was not up to speed, or
2. The Instructors there have just had their expat contracts changed to local terms?

[lost&found]

Hammerhead

was hoping someone who reads this could give me some tips on what exactly to expect, what to wear, and what to study. I have a fair idea but would appreciate any aid.

I've been reading these posts

if you have read the posts, you will know what is involved with the interview/ what to study. I wouldnt suggest rocking up in shorts and a T-shirt... use some initiative champ! what do you think you should wear to an interview?

ap:

Where in the world is the HK ATPL recognised and accepted? Can it be used to apply for jobs in Europe and the Middle East?

CX is a career airline, its not a stepping stone, or a place to "build" hours! Have a read through the last couple of pages....

[Em773ER]

I am well aware of the new deal for the Cadet and second officer, and we have a detailed explanation in a previous post.
However, I don't know anything about the future deal for the first officer and captain (I mean, the deal in the future when the current cadet will get upgraded to FO or CPT later....)
Do anyone know some figures ? Because on the CX website, a few numbers are given, and they are pretty much the same as the one I can see on pilotjobsnetwork, which I guess are based on the current payscale. So, could anyone be more specific about what's going on please ?

Well I don't know if this is true but this is what was posted in a previous post by "The Rents"

With the new housing allowance of 120,000 hkd per annum, rising with rank, basic pay of 330,000 hkd + 9% rise this year, plus another 3% next year, a guaranteed flight allowance for 84 hours flying per month equalling 28,000 hkd per annum you can't afford to pratt about. That lot gives you in excess of 500,000 hkd per annum.

but i'm not certain whether these figures are correct. All I know (correct me if i'm wrong), is that by the time you're first year captain via cadet scheme, you may be earning as much or less than a 3rd year DESO (roughly). and also i dont think the housing allowance will rise with rank, as mentioned by the rents.

and another post you might find of interest.

Then when you finally go right hand seat as First Officer, it only lasts 2 years maximum as you will then become a "Relief Pilot" which is another term they invented to save costs to save having 2 captains on a flight. What this means is that you will spend your time doing the same job as.. guess what..? Yes a Second Officer again! So great, you do relief pilot work for probably 5 to 10 years until your command. And they have just extended the retirement age, so you will have to wait even longer for upgrade to Captain.

And even better, when you are a first officer and a Captain, you will be working your ring off. The working hours are apaprently ****e. I personally dont mind working hard but these guys say that their efforts are beyond resonable definitions. They told me about a loophole the compnay uses called "split duty" where you fly to a destination at night, spend 40 minutes on a bus to a crappy hotel where you sleep for around 5 hours, then bus back to the airport and fly back to Hong Kong, which I guess would be ok once in awhile but they do it all the time. Sounds like the Hong Kong regulator turns a bit of a blind eye over there which is not very reassuring.

When you upgrade to Captain you will get a special management allowance which is about 1/3 of the housing allowance that expat pilots get, again i'm not sure if this is true.

Plain & simple it's the package. I have done the maths in every possible way, including offshore accounts, shelf companies, etc to make it work. I wanted CX and tried to find a way. The cold hard facts are that I WILL NOT be able to comfortably retire. The pilots and crew cannot trust management to honour a contract. To own my own property is not unachievable but a very distant goal: up to 15-20 years of strict (very strict) saving because initially as SO I won't be able to. Add any possibility of wife, kids, education, associated costs....? No. It can't be done on this salary in HK & the costs of living.

It's never been the seat I sit in or the bars on the shoulders to parade about the mirror in. It's about a CAREER that leaves me able to show a responsibility to a hopeful family & eventual retirement. This package CANNOT offer that.

you don't need the specifics tithybo, from that post, its obvious that the deals you get as FO and Cpt on this package are still no where near good enough for comfortable retirement, do what you will with what info you get. hope that helps

[crwjerk]

36000 for captain. Still less than a 2 yr S/O on expat terms NOW.

[ap_797]

Hi guys,
on the website it says 45,000 HKD per month salary for an S/O. This means 540,000HKD per year. That equates to around $80,000 per year or around £50,000.

Is everyone saying that this is not good on relative terms (i.e what you could have gotten or before), or on absolute terms (as in suggesting that a starting salary of $80,000 whatever the job, is considered crap).

If it is the latter, i.e. absolute terms, then am i missing something here because although rents are high, an $80k starting salary is pretty good whatever job a person is doing!!

[SMOC]

HPA - HK Pilot Allowance (pm).

S/O - 10k (and JF/O).
F/O - 14k
SF/O - 18k
CN (1-4yr) - 24k (what used to be a management allowance).
CN(5-8yr) - 30k
CN (9yr+) - 36k

Expat variable rental could top 80k pm so an expat S/O (yr3+) could get more than a local Capt.

It'll be 20yrs before you make what a 3rd yr S/O could make now.

Tax on expat housing is on a reduced rate not so for the HPA.

Also bases are a way to reduce expat costs, without expat costs I see no need for CX to have bases in the future, they are going through some serious negotiating re bases at the moment.

I wouldn't say CX is a career airline anymore but as I've said it could by default due to licence issues, P2X time, MPL, lack of command time, seniority etc.

$ Correction thanks to GTC58

[Em773ER]

ap_797

I reckon the reason its 45k/mnth is because of the added 10k "housing allowance" for icadets, it used to be around 35k/mnth before the allowance was introduced... I might be wrong but it seems likely to be the case. You are right in that the pay is pretty good, but in HK its not enough to allow you to have a good lifestyle.

and to add to your question earlier

In terms of conversion to a JAA licence, can this be done once the rank of F/O is reached or is it simply a fact that a HK ATPL will never be able to be concerted to a JAA one? If the latter were true does this mean re-doing the whole ATPL course at a JAA approved institution?

Where in the world is the HK ATPL recognised and accepted? Can it be used to apply for jobs in Europe and the Middle East?

I happen to know a guy who did the instructor course, and he was telling me that they had to convert their HKCPL to australian CPLs to do instructing there, all they had to do was law and i think a couple of other subjects. but what interests me is the fact that after their 3 years instructing, they would have at least 2000hrs PIC hours and multi PIC as well, allowing them to refuse the SO offer and work for an australian carrier (given they do Oz ATPLs), thats why i think CX stopped the instructor course, because of that risk (although they would have to pay back the forgiveable loan). I could be wrong but that also seems likely to be the case, so don't think about leaving CX if you're going to do this cpp.

[PPRuNeUser0163]

EM773ER,

how current is your information regarding the Instructor course guys? I know a few and most are extremely upset at broken promises, the company extending their time in ADL and even a promise to reduce the time at FTA being reversed.. Also I heard now when they join CX as a S/O they will be put on local (ICAD) terms .. can anyone confirm this too?

are they bonded till they becomes S/Os? If so could prove a bit of a problem- id hazard a few might look to leave as you say....

[Em773ER]

nkand

as current as it can be , I and the many others on this forum can confirm that the instructor cadets' contracts were ripped up by CX and used as toilet paper by management. but in all seriousness yes they will now join on local terms, opposed to their promised full expat terms. and i'm not too sure about their time in ADL being extended, all i know is its 3 years from graduation and they are about half way through?, something like that. either way, the morale of the story is that CX doesn't honour its contracts.