Iberia IB6166, BOS-MAD, 2nd Dec, Cowboys !!!!
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This is very simple. Snow on the wing is BAD & WRONG. Dry snow, wet snow it doesn't matter what type of snow, its wrong. Whats under the snow? You cant know whats under the snow until you have carried out a tactile check and I do not believe that this IB crew, or any other A340 crew is likely to carry out a tactile check extent necessary to determine weather or not there is ice under the snow. Different parts of the wing will be at different temps and so what is under the snow will vary across the wing.
Will the snow blow off? Maybe it will, maybe it won’t. You don’t know and neither do I.
Will the snow blow off? Maybe it will, maybe it won’t. You don’t know and neither do I.
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Didn't have the patience to read them all but have to say that if I call for pushback with an apparent safety related problem I sure hope someone like LTD is close by, I commend him for his effort. Like others have pointed out, it doesn't necessarily reflect on the entire airline.
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Facts and evidence
So, it has been established as fact that the incident did happen, and there is evidence available to support the claim made. Just because LTD hasn't said that he has filed a report doesn't necessarily meant that he hasn't done so. The FAA/NTSB may also be looking into this incident too. It is not beyond the realms of probability that their guys read these forums, is it?
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Robeki wrote
Sorry Robeki your posts are full of contradiction.
Experience does not stop you from making mistakes. Neither does a big salary. I make them all the time, but clean wings are a must. Just because they got away with it doesn't make it right.
I am fortunate enough to work for a company that probably pays me more than an IB pilot and I have ~20years/15,000hrs of experience from turboprops to 747s. That does not make me immune from mistakes but if it makes me a Monday night QB then so be it. However, I will always be glad of intervention from someone like LTD.
It seems that our (well intentioned) critcism of this particular IB crew has fallen on ears that don't want to listen and that is really rather sad for our profession.
This thread seems to be full of Monday night quarterbacks. None of you ever make mistakes, obviously.
What does experience have to do with it? Everything. What does salary have to do with it, not much, it was a simple comment. I don’t see many pilots earning what a commander with Iberia earns, and there is a reason for that. Extremely professional crews, thus the reason I give them the benefit of the doubt. Accident statistics prove my point
What does experience have to do with it? Everything. What does salary have to do with it, not much, it was a simple comment. I don’t see many pilots earning what a commander with Iberia earns, and there is a reason for that. Extremely professional crews, thus the reason I give them the benefit of the doubt. Accident statistics prove my point
Experience does not stop you from making mistakes. Neither does a big salary. I make them all the time, but clean wings are a must. Just because they got away with it doesn't make it right.
I am fortunate enough to work for a company that probably pays me more than an IB pilot and I have ~20years/15,000hrs of experience from turboprops to 747s. That does not make me immune from mistakes but if it makes me a Monday night QB then so be it. However, I will always be glad of intervention from someone like LTD.
It seems that our (well intentioned) critcism of this particular IB crew has fallen on ears that don't want to listen and that is really rather sad for our profession.
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Of course LTD was right, and he can park next to me anytime.
We have to remember that for all those judge, jury and executioners out there. We are basing this whole thread on what one pilot thought they saw. Now maybe LTD was right and they should have come back to de-ice. I find it hard to believe any crew would take off with contaminated surfaces, so maybe we are missing a piece of the puzzle here.
I would love to see a posting from one of the IB crew involved.
It is a shame that it is open season for naming and shaming. To name the airline, date and departure airfield on an anonymous forum is not on.
We take enogh crap from journos etc as it is.
We have to remember that for all those judge, jury and executioners out there. We are basing this whole thread on what one pilot thought they saw. Now maybe LTD was right and they should have come back to de-ice. I find it hard to believe any crew would take off with contaminated surfaces, so maybe we are missing a piece of the puzzle here.
I would love to see a posting from one of the IB crew involved.
It is a shame that it is open season for naming and shaming. To name the airline, date and departure airfield on an anonymous forum is not on.
We take enogh crap from journos etc as it is.
Last edited by gatbusdriver; 5th Dec 2007 at 10:34.
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idol detent, very well said Sir.
I just can not comprehend that a highly experienced crew would disregard such an observation from a fellow professional. There is absolutely no place for pride in this kind of situation.
Yes we do, on a daily basis. This, however, is not a mistake. It is an act of great unprofessionalism that potentially endangered a great many lives.
Of course it's not right to brand a whole company as "cowboys" based on this one crew, and the identifying of flight numbers etc is questionable too. But I don't think that was LTD's intention in starting this thread. It was probably a mix of incredulity and horror that in this day and age there still exists a lack of understanding of the dangers of ANY contamination on the aircraft's surfaces.
Those on here defending the crew's actions need to grow up. This is not a point scoring exercise against IB pilots or anyone else. It is about a very serious flight safety issue that affects all of us, no matter what logo we have on our tail.
The likes of LTD can park next to me any time they like
I just can not comprehend that a highly experienced crew would disregard such an observation from a fellow professional. There is absolutely no place for pride in this kind of situation.
None of you ever make mistakes, obviously.
Of course it's not right to brand a whole company as "cowboys" based on this one crew, and the identifying of flight numbers etc is questionable too. But I don't think that was LTD's intention in starting this thread. It was probably a mix of incredulity and horror that in this day and age there still exists a lack of understanding of the dangers of ANY contamination on the aircraft's surfaces.
Those on here defending the crew's actions need to grow up. This is not a point scoring exercise against IB pilots or anyone else. It is about a very serious flight safety issue that affects all of us, no matter what logo we have on our tail.
The likes of LTD can park next to me any time they like
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LTD Good Show.
LTD if you would ever see me do the same thing you are more than welcome to call me and warn me. I think some of our good members on the forum have misunderstanded you completely.
As I read it you are not talking about 1600 cowboys in Iberia. You are talking about those cowboys on this flight. I also think in IB there is a problem about challenging the captain. I know how the atmosphere is. I used to work in spain and I also fly with good spanish people in my company and they have their own experience they share with us. However that some of those who write on this forum get realy upset and angry and taking things personaly. It seems like whoever this is was either a member of the crew on this flight or is maybe one of those misunderstood. There is a treatment called anger management. I hope that cristhmas has not been spoiled for this guy. LTD didnt mention any names nor flight numbers. There is a little padadox in the headline which can be understood in many ways. However its your choice how you want to understand this headline.
I wish you all a merry cristhmas and a happy new year.
As I read it you are not talking about 1600 cowboys in Iberia. You are talking about those cowboys on this flight. I also think in IB there is a problem about challenging the captain. I know how the atmosphere is. I used to work in spain and I also fly with good spanish people in my company and they have their own experience they share with us. However that some of those who write on this forum get realy upset and angry and taking things personaly. It seems like whoever this is was either a member of the crew on this flight or is maybe one of those misunderstood. There is a treatment called anger management. I hope that cristhmas has not been spoiled for this guy. LTD didnt mention any names nor flight numbers. There is a little padadox in the headline which can be understood in many ways. However its your choice how you want to understand this headline.
I wish you all a merry cristhmas and a happy new year.
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For those of you who have not bothered to listen to the ATC recordings, it is notable that everyone calling for start clearance was also de-icing. I don't think I heard one flight except the IB flight that didn't require de-icing and request pushback from the gate to allow it.
The clearance delivery person repeatedly asked the Iberia flight if they had "already de-iced". They also asked again, "do you need to de-ice?". Each time, the IB pilot said "negative". It seems that the controller had some concern about the lack of de-icing judging by the number of times he queried the IB flight.
The BA pilot then made a clear request to pass on the message to the IB crew that they had seen the top surface of their wing covered in snow and would ATC pass on their concerns, which they did on the ground frequency. The IB pilots had ample time and opportunity to check the condition of their wings and to de-ice. They chose not to when it was pointed out that they had "substantial" amounts of snow on their wing and it was quite obvious that everyone else was de-icing.
As has been pointed out by others, you just do not go with ANY snow on your wings because you do not know what lies underneath it. It does sound as though this IB crew were "cowboys". That does not imply that all IB pilots are, even though the original title of this thread implied so.
Hopefully, if this thread is brought to the attention of their managers, the pilots concerned will be reminded of the requirements to de-ice whenever there is any frozen deposit on the upper surfce of their wings. I'm pretty sure that the adverse publicity that this thread has caused them is in effect more expensive than the cost of the de-icing the pilot thought he was saving the company at the time.
The clearance delivery person repeatedly asked the Iberia flight if they had "already de-iced". They also asked again, "do you need to de-ice?". Each time, the IB pilot said "negative". It seems that the controller had some concern about the lack of de-icing judging by the number of times he queried the IB flight.
The BA pilot then made a clear request to pass on the message to the IB crew that they had seen the top surface of their wing covered in snow and would ATC pass on their concerns, which they did on the ground frequency. The IB pilots had ample time and opportunity to check the condition of their wings and to de-ice. They chose not to when it was pointed out that they had "substantial" amounts of snow on their wing and it was quite obvious that everyone else was de-icing.
As has been pointed out by others, you just do not go with ANY snow on your wings because you do not know what lies underneath it. It does sound as though this IB crew were "cowboys". That does not imply that all IB pilots are, even though the original title of this thread implied so.
Hopefully, if this thread is brought to the attention of their managers, the pilots concerned will be reminded of the requirements to de-ice whenever there is any frozen deposit on the upper surfce of their wings. I'm pretty sure that the adverse publicity that this thread has caused them is in effect more expensive than the cost of the de-icing the pilot thought he was saving the company at the time.
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Faa/ntsb
Given the seriousness of these allegations, have either of the above agencies made any inquiries or asked questions. Given the seriousness of the consequences of such an action by IB, I'd expect them to ask some questions about this report. Would the controller not have made a report in this instance, given his concern about the aircraft's operation?
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Hi all,
have a look at this Transport Canada article on the Dryden accident
discussing exactly the things we are talking about in this thread:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/sy...5/1-04/538.htm
have a look at this Transport Canada article on the Dryden accident
discussing exactly the things we are talking about in this thread:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/sy...5/1-04/538.htm
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"mumbo jumbo"...Spot on!
Just listened the tapes my self. After IB crew says " we don´t need de-ice", someone is saying (British maybe?) "YOU DO"! Well done from him!!!
Here´s the tape -> http://www.liveatc.net/archive.php and take KBOS-Delivery-Dec-02-2007-2300Z.mp3, right after mid point...
Just listened the tapes my self. After IB crew says " we don´t need de-ice", someone is saying (British maybe?) "YOU DO"! Well done from him!!!
Here´s the tape -> http://www.liveatc.net/archive.php and take KBOS-Delivery-Dec-02-2007-2300Z.mp3, right after mid point...
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Indeed therein lies the problem. I dont think there has been any criticism of LTd's call to ATC advising his concern for the IB flight from anyone here. What has been criticised is the manner in which it has been placed here, and those trying to justify the IB's crew decision. (Later shot down as further 'evidence' is provided to assist the arguement)
As for comments regarding good CRM, dont just pick the bits that back up your point of view. Yes it was good CRM to point it out, no it was not good CRM to place the situation into this domain with such an emotive title. Now we are rowing between ourselves and missing the points. Was it wrong to dispatch? Based on the evidence here then yes it may have been. Has the event been correctly described? perhaps perhaps not. Yet a crew judged by their peers with only one side to the story put forth are labelled as cowboys, and issues of deicing dissolve into a mix of quarrels.
If you have safety concerns then have the courage of your convictions, voice them, raise them or report them if you believe this is warranted. Do not label a crew in such a derogatory way on a public forum with no safety role, without having all the facts, including the reasoning behind their decision. It is to say the least amateurish and has no benefit with regards flight safety.
As for comments regarding good CRM, dont just pick the bits that back up your point of view. Yes it was good CRM to point it out, no it was not good CRM to place the situation into this domain with such an emotive title. Now we are rowing between ourselves and missing the points. Was it wrong to dispatch? Based on the evidence here then yes it may have been. Has the event been correctly described? perhaps perhaps not. Yet a crew judged by their peers with only one side to the story put forth are labelled as cowboys, and issues of deicing dissolve into a mix of quarrels.
If you have safety concerns then have the courage of your convictions, voice them, raise them or report them if you believe this is warranted. Do not label a crew in such a derogatory way on a public forum with no safety role, without having all the facts, including the reasoning behind their decision. It is to say the least amateurish and has no benefit with regards flight safety.
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Despegue says: It seems that there exist a blaming culture on PPRUNE.
I say: Clearly. This is not the first occasion. Although I am not a Spaniard, I have seen enough topics on pprune that cross the line from being aviation related into being issues of nationality.
Idol detent says: I have ~20years/15,000hrs of experience from turboprops to 747s.
If you are trying to impress me, trust me, it’s not going to work.
I would have done EXACTLY what LTD did, advise the crew. Anything beyond that is unprofessional over the radio or on a forum. That’s what I have been trying to put across from my first post.
Once again, if LTD and the rest of you are really interested in the safety of Iberia’s operation on that day, file a report. It would be the sensible thing to do. The unprofessional and un-sensible thing to do is to come on a forum and start calling those three pilots cowboys. Very, very, unprofessional.
Tableover: EXTREMELY WELL SAID.
I say: Clearly. This is not the first occasion. Although I am not a Spaniard, I have seen enough topics on pprune that cross the line from being aviation related into being issues of nationality.
Idol detent says: I have ~20years/15,000hrs of experience from turboprops to 747s.
If you are trying to impress me, trust me, it’s not going to work.
I would have done EXACTLY what LTD did, advise the crew. Anything beyond that is unprofessional over the radio or on a forum. That’s what I have been trying to put across from my first post.
Once again, if LTD and the rest of you are really interested in the safety of Iberia’s operation on that day, file a report. It would be the sensible thing to do. The unprofessional and un-sensible thing to do is to come on a forum and start calling those three pilots cowboys. Very, very, unprofessional.
Tableover: EXTREMELY WELL SAID.
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I don't understand where this is going.
First of all, people doubting any part of this story must have another agenda. There are plenty of witnesses to the incident, to the state of weather at the time, and the exchange is on tape. There is a clear acknowledgement from the crew of the aircraft that they were not going to deice, even though everyone else was. And there was repeated questioning of that decision. It's not a rumor. Who cares about "proof"? This isn't going to court.
Second, that a crew in those conditions, with snow on the wing, did not deice, is a serious and potentially fatal lapse of judgement.
Third, it seems the situation about contamination of wings with frozen precipitation is not understood by everyone in the airline pilot community (and some of the comments on this thread go to show it). I find this situation very, very hard to believe (especially after Dryden - let me also refer to Chapter 3 of Beyond Aviation Human Factors, by Maurino, Reason, Johnston and Lee if anyone hasn't read it already. BTW, the Foreword is by the Honorable Mr. Justice Moshansky himself) but it is apparently so. The message needs to get out, by every possible means. It particularly needs to get out to the particular crew concerned.
Anyone disagree? Anyone think that the crew should remain ignorant? Anyone think that they shouldn't know what other people think of their decision? Anyone think that they shouldn't know that even their defenders are suggesting it should have been reported if anyone thinks it was an issue? Anyone think that the airline doesn't have a safety issue with a couple of its employees who apparently don't understand basic aerodynamics? Anyone think this situation doesn't need to be rectified?
Sending messages to authorities and filing reports and so on is phooey. It is the people concerned who need to revise their ideas about wing contamination, and for the airline to check that all its people know. And then the matter is finished. What could be simpler and more effective than bringing it up on the world-famous PPRuNe?
PBL
First of all, people doubting any part of this story must have another agenda. There are plenty of witnesses to the incident, to the state of weather at the time, and the exchange is on tape. There is a clear acknowledgement from the crew of the aircraft that they were not going to deice, even though everyone else was. And there was repeated questioning of that decision. It's not a rumor. Who cares about "proof"? This isn't going to court.
Second, that a crew in those conditions, with snow on the wing, did not deice, is a serious and potentially fatal lapse of judgement.
Third, it seems the situation about contamination of wings with frozen precipitation is not understood by everyone in the airline pilot community (and some of the comments on this thread go to show it). I find this situation very, very hard to believe (especially after Dryden - let me also refer to Chapter 3 of Beyond Aviation Human Factors, by Maurino, Reason, Johnston and Lee if anyone hasn't read it already. BTW, the Foreword is by the Honorable Mr. Justice Moshansky himself) but it is apparently so. The message needs to get out, by every possible means. It particularly needs to get out to the particular crew concerned.
Anyone disagree? Anyone think that the crew should remain ignorant? Anyone think that they shouldn't know what other people think of their decision? Anyone think that they shouldn't know that even their defenders are suggesting it should have been reported if anyone thinks it was an issue? Anyone think that the airline doesn't have a safety issue with a couple of its employees who apparently don't understand basic aerodynamics? Anyone think this situation doesn't need to be rectified?
Sending messages to authorities and filing reports and so on is phooey. It is the people concerned who need to revise their ideas about wing contamination, and for the airline to check that all its people know. And then the matter is finished. What could be simpler and more effective than bringing it up on the world-famous PPRuNe?
PBL
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"mumbo jumbo"...Spot on!
Just listened the tapes my self. After IB crew says " we don´t need de-ice", someone is saying (British maybe?) "YOU DO"! Well done from him!!!
Here´s the tape -> http://www.liveatc.net/archive.php and take KBOS-Delivery-Dec-02-2007-2300Z.mp3, right after mid point...
Everything is between 20:36 and 24:25
Just listened the tapes my self. After IB crew says " we don´t need de-ice", someone is saying (British maybe?) "YOU DO"! Well done from him!!!
Here´s the tape -> http://www.liveatc.net/archive.php and take KBOS-Delivery-Dec-02-2007-2300Z.mp3, right after mid point...
Everything is between 20:36 and 24:25