Iberia IB6166, BOS-MAD, 2nd Dec, Cowboys !!!!
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Two aircraft at the gate awaiting departure - why not a "buddy system" wherein each provides an advisory, to the best of their ability, on the condition of the other?
Seems to me to be better than ignorance (and arrogance...)
Seems to me to be better than ignorance (and arrogance...)
I've read with interest all of the posts, and agree completely with the "better safe than sorry" mantra.
I want to play the devil's advocate game for a while too. So let me reverse the situation.
Let's say you've done the walkaround, checked the wings and they were ok, the ground staff also gave the ok, so you're good to go. But you're delayed by some event while snowing, your doors already closed.
-Would any of you pilots ask the crew on the next stand to check their wings? "hey XXX, how's our wings? Ya think we should de-ice compadre?"
GD&L
just did a lil revamp on the question... strangely it's getting ignored, I wonder why
Last edited by GearDown&Locked; 6th Dec 2007 at 09:35.
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"Remember that the first two people at a crash site are always the pilots, and no one would deliberately do anything to crash unless you are suicidal."
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
So that would then beg the question about all of those nasty "non-deliberate" crashes. Complacency, impervious attiude, ignorance, fatigue, get-home syndrome...poor judgment. Lots more and in many combinations.
This has been a terrific thread in what it has revealed about professionalism and complacency. If we become so sensitive to any criticism we can no longer consider advice, God help us.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
So that would then beg the question about all of those nasty "non-deliberate" crashes. Complacency, impervious attiude, ignorance, fatigue, get-home syndrome...poor judgment. Lots more and in many combinations.
This has been a terrific thread in what it has revealed about professionalism and complacency. If we become so sensitive to any criticism we can no longer consider advice, God help us.
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So that would then beg the question about all of those nasty "non-deliberate" crashes. Complacency, impervious attiude, ignorance, fatigue, get-home syndrome...poor judgment. Lots more and in many combinations.
That is just my point, one or more of these things must have been at play here - we need to know which in order to undestand the real reasons for a crew to apparantly depart with snow on the wings.
So we actually agree
(I think)
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jacjetlag,
That would be the best possible outcome.
Swedish Steve,
Good heavens, man, basics! Any aircraft operates anywhere under the regulations of the country in whose airspace it is operating.
DK FCI,
No, it wasn't. I understand you think the incident happened as described, just that you want a "deeper" explanation. Am I right?
No, friend, thoroughly modern.
PBL
Originally Posted by jacjetlag
I believe some Supervisory type will get wind of this at Iberia and the explaining will indeed have to be done before long.
Swedish Steve,
Originally Posted by Swedish Steve
Remember that Iberia is a Spanish airline and FARs do not apply.
DK FCI,
Originally Posted by DK FCI
I don’t know if your fairytale remark was aimed at me, but I guess it was
Originally Posted by DK FCI
you have a very ancient approach to safety investigation
PBL
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Hi PBL
You mis quoted me there
The key words beeing "if" and "then"
You mis quoted me there
All I am saying is don’t condemn the crew before you have all the facts – if you don’t think you need more facts – well then I must say that you have a very ancient approach to safety investigation.
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Originally Posted by DK FCI
And on a slightly different note – saying “yes you do” is unclear and ineffective, I bet it would have been more effective to say something like “Iberia 6166 this is Speedbird 45 we are parked at your x o’clock position, we have a good view of your aircraft and we can see that your wing is covered by what seems to be snow” or something more precise than “Yes you do”
So, DK FCI, your point with that final comment is...?
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Then the BA crew did all they reasonably could in this instance. Maybe the only thing left is the MOR once they got back home.
IF the Iberia crew deliberately ignored the warnings and carried out no further checks and it can be proven they subsequently got airborne with a contaminated aircraft the Captain should lose his job and right to fly public transport aircraft ever again.
IF the Iberia crew deliberately ignored the warnings and carried out no further checks and it can be proven they subsequently got airborne with a contaminated aircraft the Captain should lose his job and right to fly public transport aircraft ever again.
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What do you do?
Ignore the facts. Here is the only thing you know.
You are at an airport and all the other departing aircraft are deicing. What do you do?
Yes, the heard could be wrong. But in this scenario is it worth the risk?
You are at an airport and all the other departing aircraft are deicing. What do you do?
Yes, the heard could be wrong. But in this scenario is it worth the risk?
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Some of the new De-Icer/Anti-Icer leaves a coating of whitish. residue on the surfaces. Last year at LGW had to get some steps to prod it with my fingers as it looked as if a coating of slush had re-frozen. It hadn't it was just the properties of the fluid.
So as some posters say not as clear cut, but a good call by the BA crew. I hope others would do the same for me.
So as some posters say not as clear cut, but a good call by the BA crew. I hope others would do the same for me.
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About one year before the Potomac crash, I left Helsinki on the same aircraft type...very hairy 25 minutes and the aircraft was described by a ground engineer as being in 'a doomed posture' and a '120 degree flip roll'.
It had been de iced but take off was delayed and ice reformed...I tried to send the Skipper a bottle of special Scotch, but BA declined.
I wish there had been someone observant enough to give a warning to the flight crew that night.
Matt.
It had been de iced but take off was delayed and ice reformed...I tried to send the Skipper a bottle of special Scotch, but BA declined.
I wish there had been someone observant enough to give a warning to the flight crew that night.
Matt.
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cow what?
I think it is about time to put the record strait.
1- A, let us acept, diligent british pilot (?) assumes a nearby aircraft needs to be de-iced. Theirs asumption, of course, ignores and disregards any of the pre clearance checks by said aircraft own crew and Company ground staff.
2- Our diligent british pilot 'advices' aircraft pilot or whoever that 'he thinks' they need de-icing. Aircraft crew acknowledges the 'advise' and replies that they 'do not need' de-icing which should imply (of course not for our wise and diligent british pilot) that they have made all necesary checks, they are aware of the situation as far as ice is concerned and his aircraft is ready and safe. De-icing when not needed is as bad as no de-icing when needed.
3- FACTS, FACTS. Facts had proven that assumption by our diligent british pilot was wrong. Aircraft departed as expected, clean and safe.
4- FACTS, FACTS. Facts had proven that clearance checks by IB crew and ground staff were correct and crew decission that de-ice was not necessary, was right.
5- You, Mr.Diligent Pilot, can present your fairytale as you like; this is, anyway, (rumours, rumours) the right place for it.
6- For those of you more fond of rumours than facts, fair enough. Your turn.
7- And, finally, let me put it loud and clear: safety first, safety first, safety first; but safaty is good judgements, wise decissions, not redymade bigmouth declarations or non sense assumptions.
By the way, ¿any word from Light Twin Driver regarding those british cowboys (let me borrow you 'fair' word) riding that big horse across so many miles and so many souls on board, on 3 engines?.
And Merry Christmast for all.
1- A, let us acept, diligent british pilot (?) assumes a nearby aircraft needs to be de-iced. Theirs asumption, of course, ignores and disregards any of the pre clearance checks by said aircraft own crew and Company ground staff.
2- Our diligent british pilot 'advices' aircraft pilot or whoever that 'he thinks' they need de-icing. Aircraft crew acknowledges the 'advise' and replies that they 'do not need' de-icing which should imply (of course not for our wise and diligent british pilot) that they have made all necesary checks, they are aware of the situation as far as ice is concerned and his aircraft is ready and safe. De-icing when not needed is as bad as no de-icing when needed.
3- FACTS, FACTS. Facts had proven that assumption by our diligent british pilot was wrong. Aircraft departed as expected, clean and safe.
4- FACTS, FACTS. Facts had proven that clearance checks by IB crew and ground staff were correct and crew decission that de-ice was not necessary, was right.
5- You, Mr.Diligent Pilot, can present your fairytale as you like; this is, anyway, (rumours, rumours) the right place for it.
6- For those of you more fond of rumours than facts, fair enough. Your turn.
7- And, finally, let me put it loud and clear: safety first, safety first, safety first; but safaty is good judgements, wise decissions, not redymade bigmouth declarations or non sense assumptions.
By the way, ¿any word from Light Twin Driver regarding those british cowboys (let me borrow you 'fair' word) riding that big horse across so many miles and so many souls on board, on 3 engines?.
And Merry Christmast for all.
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3- FACTS, FACTS. Facts had proven that assumption by our diligent british pilot was wrong. Aircraft departed as expected, clean and safe.
4- FACTS, FACTS. Facts had proven that clearance checks by IB crew and ground staff were correct and crew decission that de-ice was not necessary, was right.
4- FACTS, FACTS. Facts had proven that clearance checks by IB crew and ground staff were correct and crew decission that de-ice was not necessary, was right.
Mach 3
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Frank Duran,
PBL has already addressed why your curious logic is at fault. Good and lucky are two different things.
I don't know much about anything, but I do have a PhD in aerodynamics.
Most pilots don't like being told something because it reinforces how often (inspite of what we like to think) that our decision making is sub-optimal. It is not that our decisions are "bad" per se, but they could often have been/be better.
In the arena of contaminated performance, the engineers/scientists (who generally tend to be far more intellectually capable than us pilots) at NASA, NRC, FAA, NTSB really do know best.
How different does a supercritical wing look from a non-supercritical wing?
Any of you spot the difference with the naked eye?
And yet how much additional performance can you extract from it?
I don't even like the idea of "allowed" contaminant on the underside of the wing, but then again, I'm just an ex-aerodynamicist cum pilot who happens to be on PPrune.
PBL has already addressed why your curious logic is at fault. Good and lucky are two different things.
I don't know much about anything, but I do have a PhD in aerodynamics.
Most pilots don't like being told something because it reinforces how often (inspite of what we like to think) that our decision making is sub-optimal. It is not that our decisions are "bad" per se, but they could often have been/be better.
In the arena of contaminated performance, the engineers/scientists (who generally tend to be far more intellectually capable than us pilots) at NASA, NRC, FAA, NTSB really do know best.
How different does a supercritical wing look from a non-supercritical wing?
Any of you spot the difference with the naked eye?
And yet how much additional performance can you extract from it?
I don't even like the idea of "allowed" contaminant on the underside of the wing, but then again, I'm just an ex-aerodynamicist cum pilot who happens to be on PPrune.
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Typical point of wiew of a part of the spanish society.the truth is our side and itllbe forever.
Our profesionalism is not our best hallmark.
Ive been working in aviation for more than 35 years and unfortunately that the way it is.
Our profesionalism is not our best hallmark.
Ive been working in aviation for more than 35 years and unfortunately that the way it is.
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3- FACTS, FACTS. Facts had proven that assumption by our diligent british pilot was wrong. Aircraft departed as expected, clean and safe.
4- FACTS, FACTS. Facts had proven that clearance checks by IB crew and ground staff were correct and crew decission that de-ice was not necessary, was right.
4- FACTS, FACTS. Facts had proven that clearance checks by IB crew and ground staff were correct and crew decission that de-ice was not necessary, was right.
ECON cruise, LR cruise...
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Why are so many people eager to jump in to defend the IB crew?
Someone saw deposits on their wings. Now, no matter how much you think that you don't need de-ice, when someone tells you you've got deposits, the cat is out of the bag.
Then you get your aircraft de-iced, end of story.
With actual conditions indicating sub-zero temperatures and -SN, you need anti-ice application, no matter wether you think you have a clean aircraft or not. IB are an EASA-approved operator, and I challenge anyone to bring forward evidence that EASA regulations allow you to depart in those conditions without an anti-ice application.
The deposits on the wing may have been there (as sen by LTD) or they may not. This does not really matter one iota.
What matters is the prevailing WX conditions.
They should have anti-iced. They
up and didn't. Accept it and move on. It does Spanish avaition no credit when 96% of the people defending the IB crew are Spanish. That crew up 
- end of story.
Empty
Someone saw deposits on their wings. Now, no matter how much you think that you don't need de-ice, when someone tells you you've got deposits, the cat is out of the bag.
Then you get your aircraft de-iced, end of story.
With actual conditions indicating sub-zero temperatures and -SN, you need anti-ice application, no matter wether you think you have a clean aircraft or not. IB are an EASA-approved operator, and I challenge anyone to bring forward evidence that EASA regulations allow you to depart in those conditions without an anti-ice application.
The deposits on the wing may have been there (as sen by LTD) or they may not. This does not really matter one iota.
What matters is the prevailing WX conditions.
They should have anti-iced. They
up and didn't. Accept it and move on. It does Spanish avaition no credit when 96% of the people defending the IB crew are Spanish. That crew up - end of story.Empty
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That crew up - end of story.
up - end of story.
But there's a catch emerging from this thread. You'll see Pprune used as a weapon more often in the future, instead of the proper channels, and it can affect any of you.
So, next time you see a crew acting like these cowboys, just say: "Yes YOU DO! and you better de-ice or I'll drag yer arse through Pprune big-time"
So, next time you see a crew acting like these cowboys, just say: "Yes YOU DO! and you better de-ice or I'll drag yer arse through Pprune big-time"
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I-FORD,
You don't get it, LTD was a ... British National and a BA Captain.
So aways right then on PPRUNE.
As said again people, if this IB crew did take-off contaminated this was a grave error, and we all agree I hope that LTD's reaction to something he noticed on it's neigbour aircraft was very commendable and proof of airmanship.
However, unless we have HARD FACTS here, and unfortunately, only images can give us this, we are NOT to blame extreme unprofessionality to the Iberia flight-crew. This whole thread is due to 1 eye observation. NOT MORE.
IN FACT: THe IB crew did in NEVER say that they didn't de-ice previously, they merely said that they did not require any de-ice before pushback.
It is a shame that we do not have any images, this would make this thread a professional one compared with the tabloid gossip it is now.
And I am not Spanish.
You don't get it, LTD was a ... British National and a BA Captain.
So aways right then on PPRUNE.
As said again people, if this IB crew did take-off contaminated this was a grave error, and we all agree I hope that LTD's reaction to something he noticed on it's neigbour aircraft was very commendable and proof of airmanship.
However, unless we have HARD FACTS here, and unfortunately, only images can give us this, we are NOT to blame extreme unprofessionality to the Iberia flight-crew. This whole thread is due to 1 eye observation. NOT MORE.
IN FACT: THe IB crew did in NEVER say that they didn't de-ice previously, they merely said that they did not require any de-ice before pushback.
It is a shame that we do not have any images, this would make this thread a professional one compared with the tabloid gossip it is now.
And I am not Spanish.
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Whilst agreed the the simple "yes you do!" comment was ineffective and probably not the best way to make their feelings known, the BA crew DID in fact inform the CLNC DEL controller of their concerns and they were then relayed to the IB crew on the GC freq. This is all audible, very clearly, on the tapes and DingerX has even transcribed them. The BA crew could not have made their point more clearly after the initial, knee jerk comment.
So, DK FCI, your point with that final comment is...?
So, DK FCI, your point with that final comment is...?
Quite honestly I did not hear or read the final attempt by BA 45 to pass on the message to Iberia. My bad.
Sorry LT D – I missed that part
A Good Job is in order to LT D