Iberia IB6166, BOS-MAD, 2nd Dec, Cowboys !!!!
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hey guys
I ve been reading 70 percent of the posts of thios thread and I have to admit that some of them in my opinion are correct. But in fact i want to clarify some things just from my point of view as pilot.
Of course I agree, that any comment made aiming for a higher safety for flight it is widely appreciated by any pilot (or has to be appreciated even if it comes from somebody who is not specialized or known in the matter itself). But as far as I know and I was not in that place to see it of course, it has to stay just as an appreciation. Most of the procedures within the companies are different all over the world and of course also different for every airplane. for a lot of companies de icing is not needed as far as the cover it is not higher than a certain value and of course depending on the kind of covering and if it is snow raining or whatever at the time of take off. Of course there are a lot of things more to consider for the de icing. That is the reason why a suggestion coulkd be enough because unless you fly the same airplane in the same company you cannot be sure about the procedures to be followed and in what circumstances.
On the other side, it is true and sad that there are a lot of cowboys flying all over the world not only in iberia. So please keep your overall appreciation of Iberia s pilot for you because most probably this pilot you saw departing with snow in the wings was for sure one of the only examples you can give.
I think all of us we have to be careful when giving bad appreciations of pilots in general in any company just because we have seen something strange or maybe dangerous. Every person is different and of course also in the worst companies, known for their bad policy and bad actions are good pilots and colleagues.
In any case as I said before any comment related to safety is always welcomed.
Of course I agree, that any comment made aiming for a higher safety for flight it is widely appreciated by any pilot (or has to be appreciated even if it comes from somebody who is not specialized or known in the matter itself). But as far as I know and I was not in that place to see it of course, it has to stay just as an appreciation. Most of the procedures within the companies are different all over the world and of course also different for every airplane. for a lot of companies de icing is not needed as far as the cover it is not higher than a certain value and of course depending on the kind of covering and if it is snow raining or whatever at the time of take off. Of course there are a lot of things more to consider for the de icing. That is the reason why a suggestion coulkd be enough because unless you fly the same airplane in the same company you cannot be sure about the procedures to be followed and in what circumstances.
On the other side, it is true and sad that there are a lot of cowboys flying all over the world not only in iberia. So please keep your overall appreciation of Iberia s pilot for you because most probably this pilot you saw departing with snow in the wings was for sure one of the only examples you can give.
I think all of us we have to be careful when giving bad appreciations of pilots in general in any company just because we have seen something strange or maybe dangerous. Every person is different and of course also in the worst companies, known for their bad policy and bad actions are good pilots and colleagues.
In any case as I said before any comment related to safety is always welcomed.
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Error producing conditionsSnow on the wings
Light twin driver
Clearly you did the right thing at the time.
Was the snow dry or wet ?
Well Boston being by the sea it was probably damp and this is not good.
If the snow is dry and not sticky it will blow off on take off .
As an FO we took off with snow on the wing once.
I told the Captain I wanted to get all the dry snow off the wing prior to TO
and disagreed with him prior to. He overuled me, time pressure.
An experienced Captain in Canadian winter operations.
He said it will blow off and it did but...
As stated it is worse with frost or a layer that has stuck to the wing.
I am not condoning their ( possibly ) illegal actions but imagine what the NTSB
investigator would investigate.
Error producing conditions.
Say there was an accident on this day ?
Could you give us some more facts ?
The Errors are in the system.
If a pilot reports snow on another aircraft and expresses concern to ATC.
Perhaps there should be a regulation that the aircraft should be inspected.
When in doubt ?
Perhaps your answer " Yes, you do " in part motivated the Iberia to take off just to snub you as he may have found it patronizing.
If you had worded it differently that he perhaps would have had the ground de-icing crews perform an inspection. The Spanish are very proud.
Of course egos cannot get in the way of safety.
Iberia has been for sale for a while and there are organizational pressures.
Is it legal to take off with a contaminated wing, no.
How close were you to the aircraft ?
Clearly you did the right thing at the time.
Was the snow dry or wet ?
Well Boston being by the sea it was probably damp and this is not good.
If the snow is dry and not sticky it will blow off on take off .
As an FO we took off with snow on the wing once.
I told the Captain I wanted to get all the dry snow off the wing prior to TO
and disagreed with him prior to. He overuled me, time pressure.
An experienced Captain in Canadian winter operations.
He said it will blow off and it did but...
As stated it is worse with frost or a layer that has stuck to the wing.
I am not condoning their ( possibly ) illegal actions but imagine what the NTSB
investigator would investigate.
Error producing conditions.
Say there was an accident on this day ?
Could you give us some more facts ?
The Errors are in the system.
If a pilot reports snow on another aircraft and expresses concern to ATC.
Perhaps there should be a regulation that the aircraft should be inspected.
When in doubt ?
Perhaps your answer " Yes, you do " in part motivated the Iberia to take off just to snub you as he may have found it patronizing.
If you had worded it differently that he perhaps would have had the ground de-icing crews perform an inspection. The Spanish are very proud.
Of course egos cannot get in the way of safety.
Iberia has been for sale for a while and there are organizational pressures.
Is it legal to take off with a contaminated wing, no.
How close were you to the aircraft ?
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Just a thought
I seldom post, but when I see/feel the need...
To the crew who believed it necessary to inform another crew of a potentially dangerous situation, "Thank You".
Whether it "was" actually dangerous( sufficient snow? ) or not, I will leave that up to the PIC, but, don't we all not have an obligation to each other- not to mention the flying public- to look out for one-another.
If I saw what was described, I would do the same. If I did not, and God forbid, an accident occurred, I would have a hard time living with myself.
I hope when I'm flying, and one of You see something that in you opinion needs to be brought to my attention, I pray I have the common courtesy to thank you, whether I find it has merit or not.
To the crew who believed it necessary to inform another crew of a potentially dangerous situation, "Thank You".
Whether it "was" actually dangerous( sufficient snow? ) or not, I will leave that up to the PIC, but, don't we all not have an obligation to each other- not to mention the flying public- to look out for one-another.
If I saw what was described, I would do the same. If I did not, and God forbid, an accident occurred, I would have a hard time living with myself.
I hope when I'm flying, and one of You see something that in you opinion needs to be brought to my attention, I pray I have the common courtesy to thank you, whether I find it has merit or not.
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While it is a long time since I did a deicing course, I thought that with the correct fluid applied within the holdover times that snow would not accummulate in the manner described.
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I wouldn’t run and make any conclusions on this hacked one-sided story. I am fortunate enough to know a few IBERIA pilots and I can tell you they are extremely professional individuals.
QUOTE: I immediately replied with a 'yes you do!!'
Yeah, that comment in itself made me realize what a professional individual this “Light Twin Driver” is.
As far as I know, IBERIA airplanes are not falling out of the sky every day. IN FACT, both KLM and Airfrance have far uglier accident statistics. Would you call Airfrance and KLM pilots Cowboys? Why don’t you just go ahead and call all pilots, excluding yourself, inept cowboys?
After reading countless replies, I guess I forgot that only UK pilots are worthy of flying airplanes. Last time I checked, I can’t find a single Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, or Swedish pilot who shut down the wrong engine of a passenger airliner. Touche.
QUOTE: I immediately replied with a 'yes you do!!'
Yeah, that comment in itself made me realize what a professional individual this “Light Twin Driver” is.
As far as I know, IBERIA airplanes are not falling out of the sky every day. IN FACT, both KLM and Airfrance have far uglier accident statistics. Would you call Airfrance and KLM pilots Cowboys? Why don’t you just go ahead and call all pilots, excluding yourself, inept cowboys?
After reading countless replies, I guess I forgot that only UK pilots are worthy of flying airplanes. Last time I checked, I can’t find a single Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, or Swedish pilot who shut down the wrong engine of a passenger airliner. Touche.
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I have to give the benefit of the doubt to the Iberia crew. I think it is wrong to assume that they did not check their aircraft before departure. If the snow was not "adhering" to the aircraft then they obviously made the right decision. Some of these things are learned through experience.
From only a pax point of view - and not from the sharp end - being a more than regular user of Iberia - what I have observed from the cabin in terms of safety is a rather preofessional show. Ofcourse you do get the odd one or two crew members who have maybe got out of bed the wrong way - but nevertheless the attention to detail on safety briefings and keeping aisles clear and ensuring baggage well secured in lockers and well tucked under seats in front during take-off and landings is carried out well. When seated in emergency exit locations - crew clearly explain which sometimes bothers me on UK carriers where the occupant maybe has english as not the mother tongue - and often than not the UK cabin crew just go through the drill anyway. Iberia crew - in my experience have a good grasp of various languages - a sad factor differential when flying UK carriers - while acknowledging that English is "the be all".
I have not done long haul with Iberia - but as far as European sectors are concerned - more than happy trusting their ability.
Nivsy
I have not done long haul with Iberia - but as far as European sectors are concerned - more than happy trusting their ability.
Nivsy
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Bactrack,
He won’t file any reports because he really doesn’t care. All he wants is to come on here and insult the 1,600 pilots who fly for that airline. This is the kind of person that would call BBC seconds after a disaster to let them know why he was right and the Iberia pilots were wrong. We have all met a person like him.
He won’t file any reports because he really doesn’t care. All he wants is to come on here and insult the 1,600 pilots who fly for that airline. This is the kind of person that would call BBC seconds after a disaster to let them know why he was right and the Iberia pilots were wrong. We have all met a person like him.
Last edited by Robeki; 4th Dec 2007 at 17:09. Reason: Tiny Insult Removed. No Pun Intended.
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Christ guys! The snow had ALREADY adhered! It was so visible to everyone that it must have been 2 inches (5cms) thick, just as it was on every car in Boston as we drove to the airport!
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Having read some of the "professional" answers in this tread, I can only conclude that it is a miracle that not more aircraft are stalling and falling out of the sky when they depart covered in "dry" snow, using "different" procedures and "different" regulations.
Getting away with it doesn't mean it's safe. I think there must be a lot of fair weather pilots out there (Miami Air; Lets taxi a bit closer to that jet blast so we can melt the snow off).
I know who I prefer to fly with. Those pilots who fear the weather.
Well done, LTD!
Getting away with it doesn't mean it's safe. I think there must be a lot of fair weather pilots out there (Miami Air; Lets taxi a bit closer to that jet blast so we can melt the snow off).
I know who I prefer to fly with. Those pilots who fear the weather.
Well done, LTD!
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Bactrack,
He won’t file any reports because he really doesn’t care. All he wants is to come on here and insult the 1,600 pilots who fly for that airline. This is the kind of person that would call BBC seconds after a disaster to let them know why he was right and the Iberia pilots were wrong. We have all met a person like him.
He won’t file any reports because he really doesn’t care. All he wants is to come on here and insult the 1,600 pilots who fly for that airline. This is the kind of person that would call BBC seconds after a disaster to let them know why he was right and the Iberia pilots were wrong. We have all met a person like him.
I am personally really sorry for "just" being a multi-engine, IFR-rated PRIVATE pilot and after this posting I will return to my usual attitude of keeping my mouth shut on professional subjects.
Yes, it could be doubted if the IB crew maybe took the "yes, you do" (excuse me if I use the wrong words but the meaning is more essential) in the wrong way. See, I am even giving the guys credit as I have not been there and can't judge what/how they heard it.
BUT: This is one of the worst statements that I have ever read here. Were you there? Even as the IB 340 driver? One has to wonder...
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Never openly contradict another professional on an open frequency.
WHAT! Just sit back and watch as ###pax depart for their final flight!?!It's this type of 3 monkeys attitude that CRM is supposed to prevent. Your responsibility, even as a fellow human being, does not end at your a/c door. If you see something you believe to be wrong, report it. Even if the other crew dismiss it as spurious, but you still have doubts, report it again.
Reminds me of a couple of years ago, was taxiing behind a 732 which had just pushed back when we noticed liquid leaking from the #2 engine. Upon reporting it the crew replied "it always does that". I again repeated to them my concerns & suggested they have someone look at it. Their F/O stuck his head out the window & 10 seconds later they requested return to stand. A/C was still there the following day.
Never take anything for granted.
The 'we've always done it that way' attitude will only lead to one place.
if we are to avoid fellow pilots being pressured by management in to taking off with the wings/fuselage as described.
EG, depart without de-icing if that were dangerous.
It is impossible that any real pressure/instruction/policy would not be documented. And if it is documented, any pilot I know would know exactly what to do about it.
I am very aware of the response I would have got if I had sought to "pressure" a pilot working for me in any way to do something the pilot knew he/she should not do, eg refuse de-icing when it should be done.
So I wonder how often "pressure from management" is used as an explanation, exoneration even, when the true story is something else.
I also wonder if commercial airline pilots ever really put their lives at risk knowingly, with or without management pressure to do that. I doubt it, and I don't really believe stories that say they do. But the real concern is in that word "knowingly", as training standards and experience requirements fall to the bean-counters' axes.
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Well, we pilots all know that most of the time, you could easily go even with some snow or other contamination on the wings and you wouldn't crash. The keyword is "most of the time".
If they would have an engine failure, some windshears or any other unforseeable incident, "some snow" could easily aggravate the situation. That's why we do these calculations and do these de-icing procedures all the time.
Just because it worked this time doesn't give you the insurance that it will the next time.
It's not only playing with the lives of the passenger and crews on board, but also with all the people living under the departure route. I think it's unforgivable that airport authority doesn't intervene in such situations. Maybe it needs another crash until they will do.
Dani
If they would have an engine failure, some windshears or any other unforseeable incident, "some snow" could easily aggravate the situation. That's why we do these calculations and do these de-icing procedures all the time.
Just because it worked this time doesn't give you the insurance that it will the next time.
It's not only playing with the lives of the passenger and crews on board, but also with all the people living under the departure route. I think it's unforgivable that airport authority doesn't intervene in such situations. Maybe it needs another crash until they will do.
Dani
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I really tire of hearing the "it's dry snow, it'll blow off" spiel. What's underneath that dry snow. Without an inspection, you have no way of knowing. Happened at one carrier that I work at. A piece of ice under the dry snow came off near the wing root at rotation, directly into the rear mounted engines. Only took one out fortunately. It's a very simple concept. CLEAN WING
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Dani,
The airport authorities are not there to tell a pilot he needs to de-ice his aircraft. According to the author of this post, they asked the pilot, which is more than most controllers would even do. Most controllers have enough on their hands without having to worry about aircraft de-icing and MEL items.
Having flown for many years in that part of the world, I can clear up something. If a controller saw that the aircraft operated in a way which was reckless, he would have been forced to report such an occurrence to the FAA.
Everyone, please remember the most important part. We are talking about a highly experience crew who earns a very nice salary. I don’t question for one minute their decision to depart.
Iberia carries two crews on some long haul flights, thus the reason for having someone in the jump seat. Last time I checked, most companies do allow crew jump seats. At least 3 pilots made the decision to depart with the “SNOW” covered airplane. The odds of having 3 cowboys in the cockpit is highly unlikely.
I would have waved as well, it’s a nice gesture.
The airport authorities are not there to tell a pilot he needs to de-ice his aircraft. According to the author of this post, they asked the pilot, which is more than most controllers would even do. Most controllers have enough on their hands without having to worry about aircraft de-icing and MEL items.
Having flown for many years in that part of the world, I can clear up something. If a controller saw that the aircraft operated in a way which was reckless, he would have been forced to report such an occurrence to the FAA.
Everyone, please remember the most important part. We are talking about a highly experience crew who earns a very nice salary. I don’t question for one minute their decision to depart.
Iberia carries two crews on some long haul flights, thus the reason for having someone in the jump seat. Last time I checked, most companies do allow crew jump seats. At least 3 pilots made the decision to depart with the “SNOW” covered airplane. The odds of having 3 cowboys in the cockpit is highly unlikely.
I would have waved as well, it’s a nice gesture.
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I'm intrigued.
We encourage cabin crew to speak up if they are concerned.
We equally welcome passengers speaking up, if they too are concerned, or even happen to notice something amiss.
After all, once it's been looked at (whatever the issue) fears or concerns can be put to rest with a rational explanation.
There have been a few reports where the Cabin Crew, and on an occasion the pax, were praised for doing just this.
And yet, here we have a trained professional pilot being criticised for speaking up.
Granted, the wording or tone may have been less than appropriate. But it is the intent and the message that is important, not the delivery. In this more educated/informed world, we should be able to put aside any personal irritations and look at the message for what it is.
As for the de-icing itself.
Surely it was the responsibility of the crew on board to take all practical steps to ensure the safety. I say practical and ensure deliberately. In this instance to de-ice I would have thought is obvious. It helps to ensure that if anything else happens, airframe icing will not be a degrading factor. As for the practical. The forecast was for snow. The airport is going to be resonably well prepared. Tower even expected it. An on time departure into the sea is a lot less appealing than a 20 minute delay.
As Dani pointed out, getting away with it this time does not make it acceptable. Suggestions that this was the right call this time, is based on the hindsight situation that nothing else happened. We don't plan for nothing to happen, we plan to ensure that if something does happen, it won't kill us.
If we don't consider these things important, then why bother with a Wet V1?
The cabin crew announcements often state that their primary purpose is the pax safety. It is also the flightcrew's. (sorry to state the obvious) Once passengers are onboard, all normal steps should be taken to ensure their safety (as well as our own). The company schedule and the profit on that trip should be secondary.
It smacks of press-on-itis. Something that we are constantly reminded to be wary of.
I can understand the view that it isn't the place of ATC to make the call. It is the flightcrew and a/c commander. It is expected that he/she will do so as part of their remit.
I can't see that it was the right decision, despite the fact that nothing happened.
We encourage cabin crew to speak up if they are concerned.
We equally welcome passengers speaking up, if they too are concerned, or even happen to notice something amiss.
After all, once it's been looked at (whatever the issue) fears or concerns can be put to rest with a rational explanation.
There have been a few reports where the Cabin Crew, and on an occasion the pax, were praised for doing just this.
And yet, here we have a trained professional pilot being criticised for speaking up.
Granted, the wording or tone may have been less than appropriate. But it is the intent and the message that is important, not the delivery. In this more educated/informed world, we should be able to put aside any personal irritations and look at the message for what it is.
As for the de-icing itself.
Surely it was the responsibility of the crew on board to take all practical steps to ensure the safety. I say practical and ensure deliberately. In this instance to de-ice I would have thought is obvious. It helps to ensure that if anything else happens, airframe icing will not be a degrading factor. As for the practical. The forecast was for snow. The airport is going to be resonably well prepared. Tower even expected it. An on time departure into the sea is a lot less appealing than a 20 minute delay.
As Dani pointed out, getting away with it this time does not make it acceptable. Suggestions that this was the right call this time, is based on the hindsight situation that nothing else happened. We don't plan for nothing to happen, we plan to ensure that if something does happen, it won't kill us.
If we don't consider these things important, then why bother with a Wet V1?
The cabin crew announcements often state that their primary purpose is the pax safety. It is also the flightcrew's. (sorry to state the obvious) Once passengers are onboard, all normal steps should be taken to ensure their safety (as well as our own). The company schedule and the profit on that trip should be secondary.
It smacks of press-on-itis. Something that we are constantly reminded to be wary of.
I can understand the view that it isn't the place of ATC to make the call. It is the flightcrew and a/c commander. It is expected that he/she will do so as part of their remit.
I can't see that it was the right decision, despite the fact that nothing happened.