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EK 231 20 December DXB IAD near crash?

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EK 231 20 December DXB IAD near crash?

Old 3rd Jan 2022, 13:52
  #221 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Uplinker View Post
But as you say; new pilots of today can go from a PA-28 onto the flight deck of a big jet, without the years of flying basic turbo-props with basic instrumentation that develops and cements our basic flying skills and situational awareness.
I sort of get the point you're making, but it's not about going straight to jets or modern flight decks. I did that 22 years ago along with a lot of other cadets, and we're all able to fly because we were given the freedom to practise under the right circumstances. The problem these days is being allowed to practice. And we've all been moaning about it on here for years, which makes us partly to blame, because we should have been raising these concerns with the airlines instead of taking the easy route and letting somebody else worry about it once it's too late.
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Old 3rd Jan 2022, 14:27
  #222 (permalink)  
 
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Ab initio trained pilots have been flying for tens of years without any safety issues if they were properly trained. The problem today is the strict ruleset to not fly manually to use automation whenever possible and the pressure to not deviate a slightest bit as every move gets monitored and recorded and any wrongdoings will be used against you.
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Old 3rd Jan 2022, 14:32
  #223 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by gearlever View Post
No worries. EK safest airline 2021, newest report of Jacdec.
https://www.spiegel.de/reise/jacdec-...f-aadcfd8fcee8
Is this table about the first three days of 2022? In that case it's understandable that poor Lufty is a few notches behind the towbar-draggers and the ground racers as new year's day nullified their statistics. If it's about 2021 then the site have serious problems with numbers which is not promising.
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Old 3rd Jan 2022, 14:40
  #224 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TBSC View Post
Is this table about the first three days of 2022? In that case it's understandable that poor Lufty is a few notches behind the towbar-draggers and the ground racers as new year's day nullified their statistics. If it's about 2021 then the site have serious problems with numbers which is not promising.
"Even a risky incident shortly before the end of the year during the take-off of a Boeing 777 in Dubai did not change this positive overall rating."

Says all you need to know about the rigorousness of JACDEC's analysis.
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Old 3rd Jan 2022, 14:54
  #225 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by TBSC View Post
Is this table about the first three days of 2022? In that case it's understandable that poor Lufty is a few notches behind the towbar-draggers and the ground racers as new year's day nullified their statistics. If it's about 2021 then the site have serious problems with numbers which is not promising.
It is just the difference between airlines that are transparent with safety and report everything and other who are not so transparent . That is all .
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Old 3rd Jan 2022, 16:35
  #226 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mr Good Cat View Post
I sort of get the point you're making, but it's not about going straight to jets or modern flight decks. I did that 22 years ago along with a lot of other cadets, and we're all able to fly because we were given the freedom to practise under the right circumstances. The problem these days is being allowed to practice. And we've all been moaning about it on here for years, which makes us partly to blame, because we should have been raising these concerns with the airlines instead of taking the easy route and letting somebody else worry about it once it's too late.
I think you’ve just hit the nail on the head. We’re not allowed to practice.

I almost feel sorry for emirates as they have a real problem ahead of them. They can’t simply allow their pilots to practice as they will expose themselves to huge risk while their 3000 odd pilots try to get back the skills they’ve lost. You can just imagine the errors going forward. Enough to make their safety and human factors departments pull their hair out trying to explain to an obtuse and obdurate management why their stats are through the roof. Almost!
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Old 3rd Jan 2022, 17:13
  #227 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by mmmbop View Post
’…..elected to do a go-around….’

That is a gross oversimplification of a lot of factors that led to that accident, none more so than the culture at Emirates which is referred to in many areas as punitive. Was it mishandled? Yes. We’re there a lot of factors at play? Yes. They went around as the RAAS also activated - a go around irrespective of whether you think there was ‘plenty of runway left to safely stop.’
You could also read it that you should always elect to do go around WITH thrust…. They elected to do it without! Either way punitive safety culture, fatigue and over reliance on automation produces some unexplainable cockups.
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Old 3rd Jan 2022, 17:21
  #228 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Oldaircrew View Post
I think you’ve just hit the nail on the head. We’re not allowed to practice.

I almost feel sorry for emirates as they have a real problem ahead of them. They can’t simply allow their pilots to practice as they will expose themselves to huge risk while their 3000 odd pilots try to get back the skills they’ve lost. You can just imagine the errors going forward. Enough to make their safety and human factors departments pull their hair out trying to explain to an obtuse and obdurate management why their stats are through the roof. Almost!
given that for the most part, approaches in dubai are in good weather and are radar vectored ILS approaches; you’d think it was a pretty much ideal environment to regain those manual handling skills
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Old 3rd Jan 2022, 17:31
  #229 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 3Greens View Post
given that for the most part, approaches in dubai are in good weather and are radar vectored ILS approaches; you’d think it was a pretty much ideal environment to regain those manual handling skills
Completely the opposite, busy terminal environment and still just blindly following the FD to an ILS final. High risk low reward time to practice. Ideally in a quieter airspace without a bunch of traps around pilots should be able to (and looking forward to) clicking the AP/AT off enter a visual pattern on a downwind…. It’s good fun. Sadly a sizable number (albeit a minority) of pilots at EK have never been at an operator where this is completely acceptable and encouraged so they never have had that skill to begin with. That being outside of demonstrating it in the sim with the endless starting of the timer and dryly configuring like a robot as per SOP. It’s not a question of regaining the skill, it’s about who you hire (and if they have that skill) first and then it’s the fltops, trng and safety culture you subject them to!

Last edited by VThokie2; 3rd Jan 2022 at 18:48.
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Old 3rd Jan 2022, 17:35
  #230 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sailvi767
You should not be on instrument reference the moment you get airborne. You should be scanning the instruments and outside the aircraft until you are IMC.
What complete rubbish... What sort of aircraft do you fly?

In a wide-body on take-off you are...

a) Fairly well down the runway when you rotate so centreline reference is lost pretty quickly as you pitch up. And...
b) By the time you get to the normal attitude for rotation the visual horizon has disappeared behind the glare-shield

As you climb towards acceleration altitude visibility is good in you direction of travel (up) but visual flight cues (the horizon) are absent. That holds true for the 777, 747-400 and 787 all of which I have flown. Hence a pilot should employ visual cues until they are no longer available. Earlier commentators have observed that the ME pilot in the video prematurely dropped her eyes to the FD after rotation. That's frankly a conclusion too far...... She drops her gaze to the PFD because she has lost firstly the runway centreline and then shorty after the visual horizon. How do you possibly say she focuses on the FD alone? All you can you say she is reverting to the PFD..... and the clue for that is very much in the name!

The JACDEC list is laughable.... Interesting that the likes of Lufthansa and British Airways with open safety cultures are behind two Chinese operators operating in a freedom-of-information 'vacuum', with of course Emirates at the top. Perhaps we should follow the money when JACDEC's finance is concerned.
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Old 3rd Jan 2022, 18:40
  #231 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Magplug View Post
Earlier commentators have observed that the ME pilot in the video prematurely dropped her eyes to the FD after rotation. That's frankly a conclusion too far...... She drops her gaze to the PFD because she has lost firstly the runway centreline and then shorty after the visual horizon. How do you possibly say she focuses on the FD alone? All you can you say she is reverting to the PFD..... and the clue for that is very much in the name!
I was going to post this point but forgot... glad you've saved me the trouble.
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Old 3rd Jan 2022, 19:03
  #232 (permalink)  
 
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So Bloomberg said:
The Emirates flight, bound to Washington DC, suffered a close call after the Boeing 777-300ER nearly impacted the ground in a Dubai neighborhood, according to The Air Current, which cited Flightradar24 and a notice to Emirates pilots. The plane came within 175 feet of impacting the ground, according to the news website. The incident may have been due to “incorrect setting” of the autopilot in the plane’s pre-flight setup, it said.
Is there any other evidence anything happened. And more importanly, if this Triple7 cleared some housing by 75ft (200ft?) and nobody noticed, anybody got the builders details? I'd still be looking for my roof...
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Old 3rd Jan 2022, 19:45
  #233 (permalink)  
 
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When in EK as a 777 FO many years ago, an otherwise pleasant Captain told me once that "there is nothing written in the books calling for interpretation of what you see outside of the window when flying" (we had been discussing CB avoidance at night..) Waoww...

Another terrible sentence at EK, which has been creating a lot of evil was the infamous : "EK pilots should use the highest level of automation available" ....

I had been performing entire visual circuits at EBL notably, with Captains ex-RAF C130 (like me in another AF) and that was great.
Then other captains told me : " so you want to have fun ?" then "if you miss it, you will have big problems" (but why should I ?) so I decided to leave for more interesting pastures (yes, some colleagues were great, but so many others were of very low calibre)
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Old 3rd Jan 2022, 19:50
  #234 (permalink)  
 
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I think there are several issues here, and, surprisingly, I don’t think lack of hand-flying/recency is the most prominent.

Most airlines, on somewhere near page one of their OM A, have a clause that states that the captain can deviate as much as they like from SOPs for safety reasons. I don’t know if EK has the same; they may do. If there is a culture that publicly severely punishes any deviation, even if totally safe, then things are being set up for failure.

If the first thing you think about when anything out of the ordinary happens is “will I get called in/retrained/demoted/sacked?”, then the battle has been lost before a shot has been fired. IMO as pilots we are not there for the ordinary, the mundane, the everyday (although we still have to get that right). We are there for the odd occasion when things don’t go according to plan and it’s not something that is much known about or practiced. Then we earn our money using knowledge, experience, CRM and critical thinking skills; if we are in a state of conflict as to what management will think of it, then our survival instincts have been muted and a suboptimal outcome awaits.
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Old 3rd Jan 2022, 20:09
  #235 (permalink)  
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Finger trouble maybe? 175kts sounds reasonable for V2 on a 777.

Did somebody put the speed in the altitude window?

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Old 3rd Jan 2022, 20:21
  #236 (permalink)  
 
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Unlikely as you can only set 1000s of feet, or 100s if you have the setting in AUTO.
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Old 3rd Jan 2022, 21:22
  #237 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Toledo View Post

RAAS activation absolutely should not mean a mandatory go-around! (Subscribing to that view means that you must also agree with the decision behind the A380 diversion from MAN because the computer said no)
Just to be clear Toledo, (because it is always hard to understand one’s tone) I stated what the case is in EK, not what I believe should be the case. And the set up of the RAAS at EK was (is?) poor as it was a fixed point irrespective of runway length.
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Old 3rd Jan 2022, 21:48
  #238 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by de fumo in flamman
plus on one departure as PM, I looked out and saw we were on profile to plough through a huge flock of gulls, with no avoidance forthcoming. I took control and ducked below what would have been a multiple strike.
So you are advocating bunting a heavy widebody jet after take-off to avoid birds? I think that tells us all we need to know.

Get your CV in..... I hear Emirates are recruiting!
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Old 3rd Jan 2022, 23:49
  #239 (permalink)  
 
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Thread drift alert:

A good preflight briefing for any RAAS-equipped airplane: ...."and on this flight we will totally ignore all RAAS call-outs except for 'on taxiway' and 'altimeter setting'".......

Those two will save your life, everything else produced by the blighted device is noise, and noise at the worst possible time.
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Old 4th Jan 2022, 01:35
  #240 (permalink)  

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LVTO trained.

​​​​​Wet Runway EFATO at V1 split from Vr by 15 kts. RVR 125 m, cockpit cutoff angle only provides 4 centreline lights remaining. No real sense of heading, only limited visual cues for lateral displacement. With about 5 deg NU nothing to see. Instruments.

Another exercise, loss of visual reference at V1 minus 20 kt. Nothing to see again, instruments during the roll.

Any normal night departure facing open sea, all black from about 10 deg NU. Nothing to see,...... you know where this is going

At the top of the thread someone mentioned, IIRC, the angles from the type involved:
8.9 for tailscrape
8.5 maximum
8.0 normal unstick
stunningly thin margins.

​​​​​​BTW does the T7 involved have some flaps auto-retract / relief feature for high speeds at take-off?
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Last edited by FlightDetent; 4th Jan 2022 at 03:01.
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