EK 231 20 December DXB IAD near crash?

[punkalouver]

Originally Posted by metalboi69

I still fail to understand how during a takeoff, a crew of 4 pilots failed to notice that the pitch angle was less than adequate.

Originally Posted by Maninthebar

Do we KNOW that all 4 up front were unaware or inactive?

So far as I can tell there is no evidence that at least 2 of them were not shrieking their heads off

​​​​​​​

Originally Posted by metalboi69

Well no, which is precisely why I said something doesn't add up.

This is part of the problem as well. A bunch of posters on this thread with some basic incident information, extrapolating into their own assumptions as if they were conclusions.

If it extends to their own flight deck decision making, that is a problem in itself, as dangerous as automation dependency.

[Smooth Airperator]

I'm still going to say the fact it was a Lady Commander has contributed to the lack of input from other pilots. I'm not judging skills, I'm just calling out things from a CRM perspective. The need to be nic(er) to the opposite sex. It's real and if you think it's boll**** then you don't understand human factors in CRM.

[Herod]

Smooth Airperator: In that case I don't understand human factors. Admittedly my experience dates from when female pilots were very much in the minority, but I found invariably that they were all of the mindset "pilot first, female second". Yes, I'm old enough to be a gentleman and open doors etc (does anyone still do that?), but once at the aircraft it was all business.

[simmy]

I wasn't knackered. When the F/O has the sector on my flights he made the decisions. Nothing worse than a nagging captain (well there is obviously.) I debriefed " there are so many comments on PPRuNe regarding fatigue that it should be considered as important as manual flying in a big modern aeroplane when one is likely to have a night as this was, a crew duty time to the limit, a delayed departure time and a start time when we would normally go to bed". No inflight crew relief. I am a great advocate of the automatic aeroplane. The difficulties I saw most regarding flight control during my 40 years in aviation (as military, commercial and instructing) was ignorance in handling the automatic systems. To Fursty Ferret....that's because the designer made (I assume it was an Airbus the lady was flying) it so the aircraft could be flown stick free! Happy New Year All, from Simmy, 10000 hours about on Boeings various!!!

[the_stranger]

Originally Posted by simmy

I wasn't knackered. When the F/O has the sector on my flights he made the decisions. Nothing worse than a nagging captain (well there is obviously.) I debriefed " there are so many comments on PPRuNe regarding fatigue that it should be considered as important as manual flying in a big modern aeroplane when one is likely to have a night as this was, a crew duty time to the limit, a delayed departure time and a start time when we would normally go to bed". No inflight crew relief.

As a captain it is your duty to safeguard both you and your mate. If you think it is inadvisable to fly manual, you speak up. Better a nagging captain than a crash or serieus incident. And if you think advising against manual flight with good (personal) reason is nagging, Inwoner what safety culture there was.
​​​​​​[Quote]I am a great advocate of the automatic aeroplane. The difficulties I saw most regarding flight control during my 40 years in aviation (as military, commercial and instructing) was ignorance in handling the automatic systems.[/]While automatics bring their own difficultiea, I don't see the link with keeping up the manual flying skills.
both need ample training and upkeep.

To Fursty Ferret....that's because the designer made (I assume it was an Airbus the lady was flying) it so the aircraft could be flown stick free! Happy New Year All, from Simmy, 10000 hours about on Boeings various!!!

Maybe keep away from making comments about an aircraft you are not familiair with.

[3Greens]

Originally Posted by Smooth Airperator

I'm still going to say the fact it was a Lady Commander has contributed to the lack of input from other pilots. I'm not judging skills, I'm just calling out things from a CRM perspective. The need to be nic(er) to the opposite sex. It's real and if you think it's boll**** then you don't understand human factors in CRM.

perhaps, but I’d say it’s possibly more cultural than that given a local male FO coupled with a female Captain. I’m sure it was a contributing factor along with many others that help to align the holes

[Willie Everlearn]

Smooth Airperator

You may be correct.
But if you are, I have to wonder how it is that whilst hurtling down the runway on a wide body aeroplane, likely at max TO weight, blowing through V1, “Rotate” and past a series of red centerline lights, that the fairer sex could possibly intimidate even the lamest of F/Os from shouting at the top of their voice “ROTATE!!!” or simply say “I have control!”. I’d also have to ask how either pilot was given a window seat in the first place?
As I recall from their recruiting literature, Emirates only hire “the best pilots”. After all, it takes them 3 days to establish whether or not you’re one of “the best”.
So, sorry but I’m inclined to disagree with your HF CRM suggestion.
Willie

[Check Airman]

Originally Posted by Herod

Smooth Airperator: In that case I don't understand human factors. Admittedly my experience dates from when female pilots were very much in the minority, but I found invariably that they were all of the mindset "pilot first, female second". Yes, I'm old enough to be a gentleman and open doors etc (does anyone still do that?), but once at the aircraft it was all business.

They're still very much in the minority, and I've found that the "pilot first, female second" is still there. I've had no issues flying with any of them, excluding one, but she'd be a dick even if she had one.

[Check Airman]

After almost 300 replies, do we actually know what happened, or are we just assuming?

[Willie Everlearn]

Check Airman
So far, in my assessment, from the few posts I've read, I'd say only theories and conjecture so far (which admittedly, can be a lot of fun). No accurate 'from the flight deck' information available AFAIK. Most seem to see this through the lens of normal ops and what should have occurred under normal ops. Not very helpful analysis. I don't see how we can glean much from that perspective at present, knowing what we don't know. I think we have to wait for some kind of factual report. Emirates have strong SOPs. At a minimum, good crew training and other flight deck related training available to improve their flight crew skills, including CRM. So, if this wasn't a gross human error it might have been a transient mechanical event. A search through the FAA AD Database reveals a number of B777 stabilizer related issues. Could this aircraft have experienced a transient issue and distracted the crew on the runway sufficiently enough to end up with this curious result? I don't know.
Let's hope it's not down to an improperly set altitude for departure.
Willie

[Flyhighfirst]

Originally Posted by Smooth Airperator

I'm still going to say the fact it was a Lady Commander has contributed to the lack of input from other pilots. I'm not judging skills, I'm just calling out things from a CRM perspective. The need to be nic(er) to the opposite sex. It's real and if you think it's boll**** then you don't understand human factors in CRM.

I would say that just announces your sexism and unbelievable attitude stuck in the 80’s. It’s a good thing that year by year as the dinosaurs retire life gets better for everyone, including the men!

[Pilot_a321]

Originally Posted by Smooth Airperator

I'm still going to say the fact it was a Lady Commander has contributed to the lack of input from other pilots. I'm not judging skills, I'm just calling out things from a CRM perspective. The need to be nic(er) to the opposite sex. It's real and if you think it's boll**** then you don't understand human factors in CRM.

​​​​ and how many incidents in the history have been caused by a complete male crew? What was the problem then? Never before have incidents been reported as MALE CAPTAIN nearly crashes plane. What is the need to mention the gender of the capt now? And according to you the fact that 3 MEN in the cockpit did not speak is also the fault of the woman. Don't speculate nonsense.

[Check Airman]

EK231 777 update

Avherald has got hold of the preliminary report.

https://avherald.com/h?article=4f24b2d7&opt=0

The Commander stated that during cockpit preparation, she noticed that the altitude selector was set to 0000 feet and she selected it to 4,000 feet, which was also verified by the flight data recorder. The selection of 4,000 feet on the altitude selector was in accordance with the planned standard instrument departure (SID) of SENPA 2F1.

At 23:10:29 UTC, the Aircraft lifted off, and at 23:10:40 the landing gears were selected to ‘up’ position (retracted).

The Commander stated that after lift-off, and during climb, she followed the flight director command. However, the Aircraft rate of climb reached to a maximum of approximately 800 feet per minute. The flight crew were not able to adhere to published climb gradient of the SID due to the shallow climb.

At 23:11:01, the takeoff/go-around (TOGA) switch was selected and the flight mode annunciations (FMA) were changed to TOGA/TOGA. The flight directors indicated climb attitude on the Commander’s primary flight display (PFD). A flap 15 over-speed occurred as the airspeed increased towards 250 knots. The flight crew continued to their destination and landed uneventfully.

[FlightDetent]

When discussing Mike Pence's 737 over-run at LGA, with the report an unexpected bias was found in the FR24 ADS-B data. Their recording showed a hard 0 for a few hundred yards where the actual aircraft was still floating above the pavement.

The connection I am making is what if the EK231's assumed non-lift-off was also just an ADS-B mis-transmission, were they not airborne much sooner than indicated in the public domain? A bug or a feature to default for 'ground' below some small altitude. The FDM people already know.

C/A: congrats for the nice 2,200

[DaveReidUK]

Originally Posted by FlightDetent

When discussing Mike Pence's 737 over-run at LGA, with the report an unexpected bias was found in the FR24 ADS-B data. Their recording showed a hard 0 for a few hundred yards where the actual aircraft was still floating above the pavement.

The connection I am making is what if the EK321's assumed late lift-off was also just an ADS-B mis-transmission, were they not airborne much sooner than indicated in the public domain? Bug or feature, to default for 'ground' below some small altitude. The FDM people already know.

I'm not familiar with the Pence incident but you are correct in that, given the reported QNH at DXB, ADS-B pressure altitude once airborne would have been negative until the aircraft reached approximately 150 ft AMSL (90 ft AAL).

FR24 always displays negative pressure altitudes as zero, and so should be treated with caution.

Edit: Just checked the Pence/Eastern thread, and the same FR24 issue applies there as a result of the QNH. In fact, it would appear that I mentioned it at the time.

[SpamCanDriver]

Originally Posted by FlightDetent

When discussing Mike Pence's 737 over-run at LGA, with the report an unexpected bias was found in the FR24 ADS-B data. Their recording showed a hard 0 for a few hundred yards where the actual aircraft was still floating above the pavement.

The connection I am making is what if the EK231's assumed non-lift-off was also just an ADS-B mis-transmission, were they not airborne much sooner than indicated in the public domain? A bug or a feature to default for 'ground' below some small altitude. The FDM people already know.

C/A: congrats for the nice 2,200

Do the liftoff time from the report (which i guess uses FDM data) and the liftoff time from FR24 match?

I guess that would be a quick gross error Che k

[DaveReidUK]

Originally Posted by SpamCanDriver

Do the liftoff time from the report (which i guess uses FDM data) and the liftoff time from FR24 match?

Read my previous post again.

Under certain circumstances (high QNH, as in this instance), you cannot determine accurately from FR24 data the point at the aircraft has rotated.

[MrBernoulli]

The preliminary report is pretty light on any really useful detail, but to aid in understanding the 777 Flight Mode Annunciations (FMAs) expected during an otherwise normal takeoff, with autothrust in use, this is what should happen:

[SpamCanDriver]

Originally Posted by DaveReidUK

Read my previous post again.

Under certain circumstances (high QNH, as in this instance), you cannot determine accurately from FR24 data the point at the aircraft has rotated.

That's my point

If the liftoff time from the report is before the supposed liftoff time on FR24 (when it goes above 0ft) then obviously FR24 is in error.
Although I don't know the resolution of the timing data on FR24, it should be possible to make a gross error check.
Using the time from the report, you should be able to roughly estimate where on the rwy it did become airborne. Again subject to FR24 data being sufficient

[DaveReidUK]

Originally Posted by SpamCanDriver

If the liftoff time from the report is before the supposed liftoff time on FR24 (when it goes above 0ft) then obviously FR24 is in error.
Although I don't know the resolution of the timing data on FR24, it should be possible to make a gross error check.

OK, I think I see what you mean, although I'm still struggling to understand what a "gross error check" would prove, other than the existence of the FR24 QNH issue that I previously referred to.

Using the time from the report, you should be able to roughly estimate where on the rwy it did become airborne. Again subject to FR24 data being sufficient

Yes, that's more easily ascertained from the FR24 data as it's not QNH-dependent. At the quoted lift off time of 23:10:29 (per the report) the ADS-B data shows the 777 roughly abeam twy N4.