EK 231 20 December DXB IAD near crash?
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Here, there, and everywhere
Posts: 1,066
Likes: 0
Received 10 Likes
on
5 Posts
This is part of the problem as well. A bunch of posters on this thread with some basic incident information, extrapolating into their own assumptions as if they were conclusions.
If it extends to their own flight deck decision making, that is a problem in itself, as dangerous as automation dependency.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Coast to Coast...
Posts: 196
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm still going to say the fact it was a Lady Commander has contributed to the lack of input from other pilots. I'm not judging skills, I'm just calling out things from a CRM perspective. The need to be nic(er) to the opposite sex. It's real and if you think it's boll**** then you don't understand human factors in CRM.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
Smooth Airperator: In that case I don't understand human factors. Admittedly my experience dates from when female pilots were very much in the minority, but I found invariably that they were all of the mindset "pilot first, female second". Yes, I'm old enough to be a gentleman and open doors etc (does anyone still do that?), but once at the aircraft it was all business.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Cheshire
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wasn't knackered. When the F/O has the sector on my flights he made the decisions. Nothing worse than a nagging captain (well there is obviously.) I debriefed " there are so many comments on PPrune regarding fatigue that it should be considered as important as manual flying in a big modern aeroplane when one is likely to have a night as this was, a crew duty time to the limit, a delayed departure time and a start time when we would normally go to bed". No inflight crew relief. I am a great advocate of the automatic aeroplane. The difficulties I saw most regarding flight control during my 40 years in aviation (as military, commercial and instructing) was ignorance in handling the automatic systems. To Fursty Ferret....that's because the designer made (I assume it was an Airbus the lady was flying) it so the aircraft could be flown stick free! Happy New Year All, from Simmy, 10000 hours about on Boeings various!!!
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: malta
Posts: 196
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wasn't knackered. When the F/O has the sector on my flights he made the decisions. Nothing worse than a nagging captain (well there is obviously.) I debriefed " there are so many comments on PPrune regarding fatigue that it should be considered as important as manual flying in a big modern aeroplane when one is likely to have a night as this was, a crew duty time to the limit, a delayed departure time and a start time when we would normally go to bed". No inflight crew relief.
[Quote]I am a great advocate of the automatic aeroplane. The difficulties I saw most regarding flight control during my 40 years in aviation (as military, commercial and instructing) was ignorance in handling the automatic systems.[/]While automatics bring their own difficultiea, I don't see the link with keeping up the manual flying skills.
both need ample training and upkeep.
To Fursty Ferret....that's because the designer made (I assume it was an Airbus the lady was flying) it so the aircraft could be flown stick free! Happy New Year All, from Simmy, 10000 hours about on Boeings various!!!
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Runcorn,Cheshire,England
Posts: 179
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm still going to say the fact it was a Lady Commander has contributed to the lack of input from other pilots. I'm not judging skills, I'm just calling out things from a CRM perspective. The need to be nic(er) to the opposite sex. It's real and if you think it's boll**** then you don't understand human factors in CRM.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Canada
Posts: 819
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Smooth Airperator
You may be correct.
But if you are, I have to wonder how it is that whilst hurtling down the runway on a wide body aeroplane, likely at max TO weight, blowing through V1, “Rotate” and past a series of red centerline lights, that the fairer sex could possibly intimidate even the lamest of F/Os from shouting at the top of their voice “ROTATE!!!” or simply say “I have control!”. I’d also have to ask how either pilot was given a window seat in the first place?
As I recall from their recruiting literature, Emirates only hire “the best pilots”. After all, it takes them 3 days to establish whether or not you’re one of “the best”.
So, sorry but I’m inclined to disagree with your HF CRM suggestion.
Willie
You may be correct.
But if you are, I have to wonder how it is that whilst hurtling down the runway on a wide body aeroplane, likely at max TO weight, blowing through V1, “Rotate” and past a series of red centerline lights, that the fairer sex could possibly intimidate even the lamest of F/Os from shouting at the top of their voice “ROTATE!!!” or simply say “I have control!”. I’d also have to ask how either pilot was given a window seat in the first place?
As I recall from their recruiting literature, Emirates only hire “the best pilots”. After all, it takes them 3 days to establish whether or not you’re one of “the best”.
So, sorry but I’m inclined to disagree with your HF CRM suggestion.
Willie
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 2,406
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Smooth Airperator: In that case I don't understand human factors. Admittedly my experience dates from when female pilots were very much in the minority, but I found invariably that they were all of the mindset "pilot first, female second". Yes, I'm old enough to be a gentleman and open doors etc (does anyone still do that?), but once at the aircraft it was all business.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Canada
Posts: 819
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Check Airman
So far, in my assessment, from the few posts I've read, I'd say only theories and conjecture so far (which admittedly, can be a lot of fun). No accurate 'from the flight deck' information available AFAIK. Most seem to see this through the lens of normal ops and what should have occurred under normal ops. Not very helpful analysis. I don't see how we can glean much from that perspective at present, knowing what we don't know. I think we have to wait for some kind of factual report. Emirates have strong SOPs. At a minimum, good crew training and other flight deck related training available to improve their flight crew skills, including CRM. So, if this wasn't a gross human error it might have been a transient mechanical event. A search through the FAA AD Database reveals a number of B777 stabilizer related issues. Could this aircraft have experienced a transient issue and distracted the crew on the runway sufficiently enough to end up with this curious result? I don't know.
Let's hope it's not down to an improperly set altitude for departure.
Willie
So far, in my assessment, from the few posts I've read, I'd say only theories and conjecture so far (which admittedly, can be a lot of fun). No accurate 'from the flight deck' information available AFAIK. Most seem to see this through the lens of normal ops and what should have occurred under normal ops. Not very helpful analysis. I don't see how we can glean much from that perspective at present, knowing what we don't know. I think we have to wait for some kind of factual report. Emirates have strong SOPs. At a minimum, good crew training and other flight deck related training available to improve their flight crew skills, including CRM. So, if this wasn't a gross human error it might have been a transient mechanical event. A search through the FAA AD Database reveals a number of B777 stabilizer related issues. Could this aircraft have experienced a transient issue and distracted the crew on the runway sufficiently enough to end up with this curious result? I don't know.
Let's hope it's not down to an improperly set altitude for departure.
Willie
I'm still going to say the fact it was a Lady Commander has contributed to the lack of input from other pilots. I'm not judging skills, I'm just calling out things from a CRM perspective. The need to be nic(er) to the opposite sex. It's real and if you think it's boll**** then you don't understand human factors in CRM.

Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: Uae
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm still going to say the fact it was a Lady Commander has contributed to the lack of input from other pilots. I'm not judging skills, I'm just calling out things from a CRM perspective. The need to be nic(er) to the opposite sex. It's real and if you think it's boll**** then you don't understand human factors in CRM.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 2,406
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EK231 777 update
Avherald has got hold of the preliminary report.
https://avherald.com/h?article=4f24b2d7&opt=0
https://avherald.com/h?article=4f24b2d7&opt=0
The Commander stated that during cockpit preparation, she noticed that the altitude selector was set to 0000 feet and she selected it to 4,000 feet, which was also verified by the flight data recorder. The selection of 4,000 feet on the altitude selector was in accordance with the planned standard instrument departure (SID) of SENPA 2F1.
At 23:10:29 UTC, the Aircraft lifted off, and at 23:10:40 the landing gears were selected to ‘up’ position (retracted).
The Commander stated that after lift-off, and during climb, she followed the flight director command. However, the Aircraft rate of climb reached to a maximum of approximately 800 feet per minute. The flight crew were not able to adhere to published climb gradient of the SID due to the shallow climb.
At 23:11:01, the takeoff/go-around (TOGA) switch was selected and the flight mode annunciations (FMA) were changed to TOGA/TOGA. The flight directors indicated climb attitude on the Commander’s primary flight display (PFD). A flap 15 over-speed occurred as the airspeed increased towards 250 knots. The flight crew continued to their destination and landed uneventfully.
At 23:10:29 UTC, the Aircraft lifted off, and at 23:10:40 the landing gears were selected to ‘up’ position (retracted).
The Commander stated that after lift-off, and during climb, she followed the flight director command. However, the Aircraft rate of climb reached to a maximum of approximately 800 feet per minute. The flight crew were not able to adhere to published climb gradient of the SID due to the shallow climb.
At 23:11:01, the takeoff/go-around (TOGA) switch was selected and the flight mode annunciations (FMA) were changed to TOGA/TOGA. The flight directors indicated climb attitude on the Commander’s primary flight display (PFD). A flap 15 over-speed occurred as the airspeed increased towards 250 knots. The flight crew continued to their destination and landed uneventfully.
Only half a speed-brake
When discussing Mike Pence's 737 over-run at LGA, with the report an unexpected bias was found in the FR24 ADS-B data. Their recording showed a hard 0 for a few hundred yards where the actual aircraft was still floating above the pavement.
The connection I am making is what if the EK231's assumed non-lift-off was also just an ADS-B mis-transmission, were they not airborne much sooner than indicated in the public domain? A bug or a feature to default for 'ground' below some small altitude. The FDM people already know.
C/A: congrats for the nice 2,200
The connection I am making is what if the EK231's assumed non-lift-off was also just an ADS-B mis-transmission, were they not airborne much sooner than indicated in the public domain? A bug or a feature to default for 'ground' below some small altitude. The FDM people already know.
C/A: congrats for the nice 2,200

Last edited by FlightDetent; 18th Feb 2022 at 17:10.
When discussing Mike Pence's 737 over-run at LGA, with the report an unexpected bias was found in the FR24 ADS-B data. Their recording showed a hard 0 for a few hundred yards where the actual aircraft was still floating above the pavement.
The connection I am making is what if the EK321's assumed late lift-off was also just an ADS-B mis-transmission, were they not airborne much sooner than indicated in the public domain? Bug or feature, to default for 'ground' below some small altitude. The FDM people already know.
The connection I am making is what if the EK321's assumed late lift-off was also just an ADS-B mis-transmission, were they not airborne much sooner than indicated in the public domain? Bug or feature, to default for 'ground' below some small altitude. The FDM people already know.
FR24 always displays negative pressure altitudes as zero, and so should be treated with caution.
Edit: Just checked the Pence/Eastern thread, and the same FR24 issue applies there as a result of the QNH. In fact, it would appear that I mentioned it at the time.

Last edited by DaveReidUK; 18th Feb 2022 at 18:18.
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: aaa
Posts: 248
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When discussing Mike Pence's 737 over-run at LGA, with the report an unexpected bias was found in the FR24 ADS-B data. Their recording showed a hard 0 for a few hundred yards where the actual aircraft was still floating above the pavement.
The connection I am making is what if the EK231's assumed non-lift-off was also just an ADS-B mis-transmission, were they not airborne much sooner than indicated in the public domain? A bug or a feature to default for 'ground' below some small altitude. The FDM people already know.
C/A: congrats for the nice 2,200
The connection I am making is what if the EK231's assumed non-lift-off was also just an ADS-B mis-transmission, were they not airborne much sooner than indicated in the public domain? A bug or a feature to default for 'ground' below some small altitude. The FDM people already know.
C/A: congrats for the nice 2,200

I guess that would be a quick gross error Che k
Under certain circumstances (high QNH, as in this instance), you cannot determine accurately from FR24 data the point at the aircraft has rotated.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Long ago and far away ......
Posts: 1,381
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The preliminary report is pretty light on any really useful detail, but to aid in understanding the 777 Flight Mode Annunciations (FMAs) expected during an otherwise normal takeoff, with autothrust in use, this is what should happen:


Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: aaa
Posts: 248
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If the liftoff time from the report is before the supposed liftoff time on FR24 (when it goes above 0ft) then obviously FR24 is in error.
Although I don't know the resolution of the timing data on FR24, it should be possible to make a gross error check.
Using the time from the report, you should be able to roughly estimate where on the rwy it did become airborne. Again subject to FR24 data being sufficient
Last edited by SpamCanDriver; 19th Feb 2022 at 19:16.
Using the time from the report, you should be able to roughly estimate where on the rwy it did become airborne. Again subject to FR24 data being sufficient