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-   -   EK 231 20 December DXB IAD near crash? (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/644395-ek-231-20-december-dxb-iad-near-crash.html)

retired guy 28th Dec 2021 10:56

Looks as if this was vert close if true.

Emirates “Near Miss” On Take Off?

Emirates flight 231 from Dubai (DXB) to Washington DC (IAD) appears to have experienced a potentially significant anomaly during take off from Dubai on the 20th of December, according to data from FR24.

According to unconfirmed reports close to the event; and seemingly corroborated by data from FlightRadar24 and other resources, the flight crew failed to correct the take off climb altitude, which was set to 00000 feet instead of 4,000 feet.

Lake1952 28th Dec 2021 11:40

Incident: Emirates B773 at Dubai on Dec 20th 2021, overran runway on departure

gearlever 28th Dec 2021 12:32

This is simply unbelievable.

Old and Horrified 28th Dec 2021 13:05

So not only did PF forget that Take Off attitude normally points UP, and nearly flew a perfectly good airplane plus passengers into the ground, but the PNF, presumably Pilot Monitoring, must have been asleep. Literally unbelievable.

Magplug 28th Dec 2021 13:21

Various accounts report that 4 crew have been sacked by the company in an attempt to create a firebreak in this PR disaster.

Short of an incapacitation of the PF.... Who flies 50kts past rotate speed staring into space at the upwind runway end getting bigger and bigger ? What PM sits there fat dumb and happy watching Armageddon approaching without yelling at the PF and pretty quickly taking control.... or maybe he did just before they went downtown?

After the debacle of EK521 it seems that home-base is a bit too much of a challenge for some. Will we ever know what happened here? In an airline where being fearful for your job is part of the everyday landscape did CRM or Cultural issues prevent a timely intervention? Would you buy a ticket with Emirates?

Zombywoof 28th Dec 2021 13:39

Thread already exists, and it was moved out of R&N: https://www.pprune.org/middle-east/6...ates-real.html

DaveReidUK 28th Dec 2021 13:45

The FR24/FlightAware data isn't particularly detailed, however it supports the theory that the aircraft was still on the ground when on the 30R stopway, though not other reports that it was only 75' AGL when overflying local houses (actually around 200'), nor that it was descending at that point.

1201alarm 28th Dec 2021 13:50


Originally Posted by Old and Horrified (Post 11161663)
So not only did PF forget that Take Off attitude normally points UP, and nearly flew a perfectly good airplane plus passengers into the ground, but the PNF, presumably Pilot Monitoring, must have been asleep. Literally unbelievable.

Yes, it is hard not to think "WTF were they doing?", without waiting for the investigation outcome. It is hard not to think "Such guys should not sit in an airliner.", without waiting for the investigation outcome.

Obviously the plane was not malfunctioning, otherwise they would hardly have continued to IAD. Or would they?


ManaAdaSystem 28th Dec 2021 14:01

4 pilots in the cockpit, none of them with an understanding of pitch when you rotate? That the nose of the aircraft should point up, not down when you get airborne? This is not a recency issue as the 777 pilots work hard in EK. That have fired a lot of pilots with no regard to seniority. Maybe they kept the wrong pilots? This incident that came close to being a major crash into a residential area, was not operated by a competent crew.
EK crashed a fully serviceable 777 in Dubai during a botched go around. They nearly crashed a fully serviceable 777 in Melborne due to finger trouble, and the same in South Africa with a A340. Nearly crashed a A380 in Moscow and one in the US, both nearly flew into the ground in good flight conditions. Nobody looked out the windows.
What is next?




Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP 28th Dec 2021 14:29

Pilots terminated. Problem solved. Nothing to see here....move on.

Brookmans Park 28th Dec 2021 15:57

Will someone remind me how TOGA works on the 777 and why it didn't give a pitch target?

SpamCanDriver 28th Dec 2021 16:02


Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem (Post 11161690)
4 pilots in the cockpit, none of them with an understanding of pitch when you rotate? That the nose of the aircraft should point up, not down when you get airborne? This is not a recency issue as the 777 pilots work hard in EK. That have fired a lot of pilots with no regard to seniority. Maybe they kept the wrong pilots? This incident that came close to being a major crash into a residential area, was not operated by a competent crew.
EK crashed a fully serviceable 777 in Dubai during a botched go around. They nearly crashed a fully serviceable 777 in Melborne due to finger trouble, and the same in South Africa with a A340. Nearly crashed a A380 in Moscow and one in the US, both nearly flew into the ground in good flight conditions. Nobody looked out the windows.
What is next?

How do you know the other pilots weren't screaming to do something?
Hard to yank the control column back from the jumpseat.

Having had to intervene myself from the jumpseat (although nothing this serious) my inputs were not even heard the first few times. Due to the PF being overloaded and becoming task focused

SpamCanDriver 28th Dec 2021 16:07


Originally Posted by Brookmans Park (Post 11161733)
Will someone remind me how TOGA works on the 777 and why it didn't give a pitch target?

If the MCP altitude window is set to the airport elevation when you engage the F/D's, it will engage in TOGA & ALT. You need to set a higher altitude & recycle the F/D's to get back to TOGA & TOGA.
When Alt is engaged changing the MCP Alt window doesn't do anything, until a new pitch mode is selected. I guess this is what happened

Emma Royds 28th Dec 2021 16:13

As of yet, all pilots have not been terminated.


1201alarm 28th Dec 2021 16:32


Originally Posted by SpamCanDriver (Post 11161737)
Having had to intervene myself from the jumpseat (although nothing this serious) my inputs were not even heard the first few times. Due to the PF being overloaded and becoming task focused

A regular takeoff roll should never overload a normally competent crew member.

retired guy 28th Dec 2021 16:34

ALL PILOTS NOT TERMINATED.
Thanks Emma. I am guessing that inside information so thanks for that.

retired guy 28th Dec 2021 16:41

If this is true it represents a shocking catalogue of errors on the day, but also in training and culture. This simply could not happen without the crew being so far off the beam as to be unrecognisable to a regular airline pilot. The number of things you have to get wrong to do this is in the multiples territory. From the simple question what does handling pilot do at VR even if there is no call from the copilot - ROTATE to15 degrees is the answer since nothing else will do the job. F/D or no F/D. The plane flies by its attitude on takeoff. Unless you are utterly mesmerised by the magenta line issue. Then how many times do we check the MCP altitude before takeoff - four?

By the way someone said this had been moved to another area? Why would that be? It is very much the stuff of Rumours and News. How could this have been kept quiet I wonder since the aircraft was damage apparently..
Best.....
Retd guy

H Peacock 28th Dec 2021 17:25

So what is the tyre limiting speed for a 773? 🤔

CessNah 28th Dec 2021 17:44

There's simply zero hope left in this industry. At a time where we're supposed to be proving to the general public why it's not a great idea to let automation take over our profession, this stunt only proves otherwise why us humans should be replaced... I can only hope now that the pace at which ultra high speed rail services get developed globally picks up so I don't have to worry about whether or not my life is in the hands of a robot, or otherwise someone who probably doesn't know how to tie their own shoe laces.

punkalouver 28th Dec 2021 17:48

I don't know why pilots can't just leave the MCP altitude where it was when they shut down. No need to put it to field elevation or even zero.

The MCP altitude is typically be pre-set during the cockpit pre-flight to an anticipated altitude. Why not do it. If it turns out to have not been the proper altitude, it was likely only changed from one improper altitude to another and can be properly set during the briefing.

The MCP altitude should be checked by all pilots during the departure briefing when the initial climb altitude is mentioned. Ideally, the briefing pilot points to it/selects it at that time.

FMA should be checked on the pre-flight for proper indication. In fact, it should also be checked when you turn on the FD switches for a boxed TOGA/TOGA indications(for 10 seconds).

I don't understand why having a mis-set altitude in the MCP would lead to a delayed rotation(if that actually happened).

Alarm bells should be going off if one is reducing the pitch(or only pitching up to 5 degrees) near the ground. A couple of degrees might be reasonable, not ten degrees from typical initial pitch attitude(even after an engine loss V1, this would be way off).

Fight director giving indications you don't want to follow is not just a Boeing thing. I know of an Airbus near crash due to following the FD's on a go-around(Thrust levers put in Flex instead of TOGA - and actually another Boeing crew that didn't press TOGA on a go-around leading to flap over-speeds as they follow inappropriate FD commands).

Looking out the window could make things worse, depending on the situation.

Helpful tip......

When sitting in the jump seats as extra crew, at some point after the cockpit setup but before pushback(when there is time), I like to do a scan of the overhead and forward panels. On occasion, you find something that is not set properly. And you can still listen to the cockpit gossip while doing it. Some prefer to use that time on iPhones.


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