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Pegasus accident in SAW; just reported

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Pegasus accident in SAW; just reported

Old 9th Feb 2020, 21:01
  #221 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by 73qanda View Post
PJ2.
Your statement about SFP was straight out wrong. The reason there has been a bit of reaction to it is that like many posts on the internet now days it was made as a statement of fact with an air of authority about it. This kind of confident posting of inaccurate information is rife and frustrates many.
There are many differences between SFP and non-SFP. One difference that I notice is that the thrust reduces to idle in two seconds if you quickly close the thrust levers rather than five seconds on the non-SFP. It’s much nicer on the SFP than the non-SFP as you can more accurately control the point of touch-down in gusty conditions. Also, if you accurately set your Vref it is slower than on the non-SFP aircraft by a knot or two.
Hope that helps, Cheers
Not my statement, 73qanda, it is from fab777 who was simply providing a link to B737.org.

You're the second poster who has lept in before reading the post carefully and mistaking the authorship of the info on SFP.

Please read the post before characterizing another contributor's writing as "inaccurate". Make sure you're addressing the correct author, otherwise you're doing exactly what you have accused another of doing.

In my post, here, I said:
Here is what B737.org has to say, as linked to previously:
Thank you.
PJ2
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Old 10th Feb 2020, 00:15
  #222 (permalink)  
 
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You’re dead right PJ2.
Sorry about that.
I’ll have a self-enforced break I think.
Cheers.
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Old 10th Feb 2020, 11:53
  #223 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
Dave's graph with glideslope added.


Last edited by CBSITCB; 10th Feb 2020 at 12:06. Reason: Alternate GS added.
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Old 10th Feb 2020, 13:21
  #224 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks for that, most enightening. So, never established in a stable approach and in stark contrast to the professionalism we witnessed yesterday, it was press on itis.
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Old 10th Feb 2020, 13:40
  #225 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Timmy Tomkins View Post
Thanks for that, most enightening. So, never established in a stable approach and in stark contrast to the professionalism we witnessed yesterday, it was press on itis.
Case closed. Neat analysis on solid, fully verified data. Great.
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Old 10th Feb 2020, 14:02
  #226 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by His dudeness View Post
Case closed. Neat analysis on solid, fully verified data. Great.
Well I wouldn't go quite that far.

Oh, I see what you mean ...
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Old 10th Feb 2020, 14:17
  #227 (permalink)  
 
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Oh, I see what you mean ...
Good. And it wasn´t aimed at you at all.
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Old 10th Feb 2020, 15:54
  #228 (permalink)  

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In the light of about 9 coherent datapoints at 1000' AFE marked within the 2.0-2.2 NM range, and the continuation to land by the crew from there, perhaps we can cut some slack to a fast typing poster. Although from an HF viewpoint the two situations actually don't link together.

The -800 can take a lot of beating before being pushed into the over-run.
.



Yes, I've been wrong about ADS-B readings in the LGW / Pence overrun. Those were false zeroes taken at face value, though.
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Old 10th Feb 2020, 16:36
  #229 (permalink)  
 
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..and 50' added to TDZ...


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Old 10th Feb 2020, 18:16
  #230 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FlightDetent View Post
Yes, I've been wrong about ADS-B readings in the LGW / Pence overrun.
The folks at Gatwick kept that quiet.
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Old 11th Feb 2020, 09:33
  #231 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by His dudeness View Post
Case closed. Neat analysis on solid, fully verified data. Great.
A fair point & perhaps poorly expressed, but:If I were an insurer, or more to the point, potential PAX, then I would look at the record and worry that there was a cultural probllem in this company. If it walks like a duck.....
Let's hope I am proven wrong.
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Old 11th Feb 2020, 12:46
  #232 (permalink)  
 
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FYI Pegasus, along with Futura in Spain were both set up with alot of assistance and IIRC £££ from Aer Lingus.........
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Old 12th Feb 2020, 07:44
  #233 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem View Post
I’m confused. Are you saying the short field package does not affect landing performance/distance, and then you post information that shows it does exactly that?
I fly both versions, and I don’t need a book to tell me this package reduces landing distance. I can feel it. We fly these versions into airports with short runways, and it makes a big difference.
The challenge is you only get full leading edges when flaps extends beyond 25. That makes tailwind approaches a challenge, more so if the GS angle is more than 3 degrees. Early speed reduction and the use of landing gear to slow down is common.
the SFP package always makes my landings look bad when the spoilers pop up and a greaser becomes a “ass fell out of it” landing. Then I remember I’m in a -800.
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Old 12th Feb 2020, 07:50
  #234 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by rog747 View Post
FYI Pegasus, along with Futura in Spain were both set up with alot of assistance and IIRC £££ from Aer Lingus.........
ive flown with astronauts from boff these “airlines”. The Thpanith are “special”. Adios amigos. They all promoted themselves to check airmen and Capitanos at RwandAir. They took away commuting from non Spanish pilots, came back from their commuting with nonsense instructor certificates and promoted themselves without shame. They were chased home, sometimes under threat of incarceration and diplomatic action. Ricardo Naval and Arturo Medina come to mind. Putos. The screaming, slapping Man fight in the arrivals hall of Kigali international airport, at bourbon coffee whilst in uniform was spectacular.
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Old 12th Feb 2020, 11:03
  #235 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Time Traveller View Post
Hearing from escapees from Pegasus, 5 or so years ago they took on quite a few Western expat captains and it looked like the operating culture might align more with European standards ... but it seems most or all expats ran away very quickly when fed an endless diet of lies, broken promises, and supposed EASA style rules (eg FTLs) only applied as a very rough "guideline", and only when they felt like it.
Interesting background, thanks. Sadly the more capable & reliable aircraft become the more the ill informed or greedy set up operations only paying lip service to the regulations; and so I suspect cavalier attitudes and corruption will find its way into this industry as it has in so many thers.
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Old 12th Feb 2020, 13:59
  #236 (permalink)  
 
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SFP OPTION:

• A reduced idle thrust transition delay

between approach- and ground-idle speeds, which improves stopping distances and in- creases field-length-limited landing weight.

• Increased flight-spoiler deflection from 30 degrees to 60 degrees, which aids brake performance when landing.

• A two-position tailskid at the rear of the aircraft. The tailskid protects longer- bodied 737-800s and -900ERs against inad- vertent tailstrikes during landing, which al- lows higher aircraft approach attitudes and lower landing speeds.

It wouldn't have mattered if they had parachutes!, they die was cast once they decided to land.. or rather didn't elect for a missed approach like the preceding 2 aircraft.
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Old 12th Feb 2020, 14:26
  #237 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by grizzled View Post
Re Clandestino's post (#213):

Best post of a general nature regarding culture and safety in a very long time. Should be mandatory reading for those heading off on their first foray into a culture different from their own.

Grizz
We had this cultural problem in Air France, leading to 2000/2009 period and series of accidents.
Things were under control till recently, seems arrogance and negligence are back ...
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Old 12th Feb 2020, 22:49
  #238 (permalink)  
 
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It wouldn't have mattered if they had parachutes!, they die was cast once they decided to land.. or rather didn't elect for a missed approach like the preceding 2 aircraft.
Exactly, you could’ve thrown the anchor of the QE2 from the back, you’d still be hoping for the best. Arguing for or against the stopping capabilities of a SFP vs a conventional-800 is totally pointless. The rules of flying and the basis of notecs seem to have been well and truly bypassed on this one. If the facts behind this overrun are as they have been presented then it’s very sad to see the apparent risks that people are prepared to take.
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Old 13th Feb 2020, 20:04
  #239 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Peter H View Post
Reading that for the first time within the context of the recent Max accidents is sobering to say the least. It's no wonder that Boeing and the NTSB are circling the wagons in response to renewed Dutch interest.
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Old 14th Feb 2020, 01:52
  #240 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by CurtainTwitcher View Post
I don't believe this is quite correct. The FMC derived headwind/tailwind component is actually quite accurate, although it does have an averaging function and thus not instantaneous. The crosswind component on the other hand is not reliable. There were other cues, GS, ROD, thrust levers back close to idle and the visual picture would have looked like a rocketship.
There is a good paper on this tha covers FMC wind component calculation: Safety aspects of tailwind operationsSafety aspects of tailwind operations Safety aspects of tailwind operations G.W.H. van Es and A.K. Karwal

it’s the best when FO’s are heads down, on approach, calling out the wind component and parroting the radar altimeter.
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