Ethiopian airliner down in Africa
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 82
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From: UK
The above is not related to my comments, but this question highlights an important point. Everyone has an agenda. Everyone. The question is whether that agenda is trying to be objective, focused on identifying and solving the real causes of the problems, honestly, in good faith, with safety absolutely first and foremost...or is it a subjective, biased agenda (biased either way)? When suspicions arise about corners being cut because the accountants don't like the numbers, or that regulatory bodies may be biased in favour of a manufacturer, or vise versa, then rather than jumping to conclusions or dismissing such suggestions out of hand, or being a 'fanboy' for heaven's sake, everything needs to be examined cooly and calmly to get to the truth.
Richard Feynman's role in the Rogers Commission into the Challenger disaster is an example of cutting through agendas to show that not only the Swiss cheese holes lined up, but also that the knowledge and skills to make and use the stuff in the first was lacking to a calamitous extent. He famously said; "For a successful technology...reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." Shuttle launches were suspended until changes were made not only to rocket boosters, but also protocols, systems, etc. In these circumstances being pro-Boeing or anti-Boeing is idiotic beyond belief.
Over three decades later, we have social media to propagate agendas at the speed of light. Many PAX see the news, read tweets and texts and worry about the plane they're booked on. They jam phonelines, apparently. In response Kayak now lets users exclude the Max 8 from searches https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-bo...-idUKKBN1QU1AW
Any way you look at this Boeing, and airlines using the Max 8, have a major problem and one where timescales of investigation and the 24 hour news agenda don't align. Be that as it may, we must give the investigators the space to do a thorough, objective job. If the Max 8 is grounded for many months, so be it. The prospect and consequences of a third similar incident without fully understanding the Lion Air and ET crashes would be unforgivable.
Richard Feynman's role in the Rogers Commission into the Challenger disaster is an example of cutting through agendas to show that not only the Swiss cheese holes lined up, but also that the knowledge and skills to make and use the stuff in the first was lacking to a calamitous extent. He famously said; "For a successful technology...reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." Shuttle launches were suspended until changes were made not only to rocket boosters, but also protocols, systems, etc. In these circumstances being pro-Boeing or anti-Boeing is idiotic beyond belief.
Over three decades later, we have social media to propagate agendas at the speed of light. Many PAX see the news, read tweets and texts and worry about the plane they're booked on. They jam phonelines, apparently. In response Kayak now lets users exclude the Max 8 from searches https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-bo...-idUKKBN1QU1AW
Any way you look at this Boeing, and airlines using the Max 8, have a major problem and one where timescales of investigation and the 24 hour news agenda don't align. Be that as it may, we must give the investigators the space to do a thorough, objective job. If the Max 8 is grounded for many months, so be it. The prospect and consequences of a third similar incident without fully understanding the Lion Air and ET crashes would be unforgivable.
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,523
Likes: 61
You claim that trim errors are normal for the 737 NG and Classic.
Are you now saying this is only applicable for poorly maintained 737 aircraft?
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
From: Netherlands
Does such a remote health management system transmit data real-time to the ground? Or is data collected during the flight and sent to a station after the flight?
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: Wherever someone will pay me to do fun stuff
Indeed, it is an incredibly brave (although I recognise others may choose a different word) decision to allow the aircraft to continue to fly in the present circumstances.
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: Netherlands
By receiving ADS-B from orbit, they may have received data for longer than what has been available from ground based receivers until today. From orbit, terrain interference should be much less.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 17,687
Likes: 2,030
From: Reading, UK
No, as stated up-thread ADS-B emits BOTH barometric and GNSS ellipsoid altitude when both have onboard sources. Which for the 737-8 is true.
FR24 don't export one or the other in their downloadable CSV data, I haven't determined which, but both are visible in the web UI during interactive usage.
FR24 don't export one or the other in their downloadable CSV data, I haven't determined which, but both are visible in the web UI during interactive usage.
I'm confused about the FR24 reference, though. Their subscription plans grid does indeed state that Gold members get access to geometric height, but I've just replayed a selection of Max 8 flights (Air Canada, Icelandair and LOT) and for every one the GPS altitude on screen stays stubbornly on "N/A".
That said, I'm not sure why we're agonising over GNSS height as I haven't the faintest idea what height the ellipsoid is at Bole.
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 206
Likes: 91
From: Canada
it could be raw data shared from the Ethiopian investigation - only to be shared between regulating agencies at this time. But more likely yes - he is truly just a politician at this time
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,350
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From: Florida and wherever my laptop is
That is normal for a 737. I have lost count of the number of times that has happend, both on Classics and NGs. The sudden pitch down on engaging the autopilot is pretty standard too - it is nornally caused by a baro-error in the autopilot computer.
The really disappointing thing, is it looks like the Max is equipped with the same old autopilot that was fitted to the Classic, with all its limitations and foibles. So I presume the Max still cannot do Cat IIIb landings. What I always wonder, is where Boeing gets these old 1980s microprocessors from, to run these autopilot computers. Do they have a source in China that still makes the 286 processor?
Silver
Last edited by Ian W; 13th March 2019 at 16:50. Reason: remove NASA
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,817
Likes: 1
From: Hotel Gypsy
RTM Boy, a great post. I'm wondering whether this will be Boeing's DH Comet moment, whereby a technological solution to a (possible) problem may be overtaken/overwhelmed by public opinion. The 737 Max may be an exceptional aircraft but it would take very little for the mood to markedly swing in the direction of the A321 NEO.
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 0
Likes: 1
From: usa
You obviously do not fly for bottom-rung airlines, with airframes destined for the desert in a couple of years. Count yourself lucky.
My bitch with Boeing is that even the Classic was a revision too far. Can you imagine using 1950s B-707 systems in the 21st century..? And then the NG was a double stretch too far. But then the Max? So these 1950s B-707 systems will still be running a century after they were designed? They are having a laugh, surely.
Silver
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 36
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From: Belfast
I know the thread has focused on certain possible causes, and some have suggested that each of the suggested causes should be handled easily if the crew were adequately trained and professional. If there were additional factors involved (2 or 3 failures) then the chance of successful recover greatly diminishes ('western crew' or not!!). Take for example another Captain's experience in a Max 8 around the time of the Lion Air tragedy shown below. Yes, the problem below on it's own should never jeapordise a flight, but if it was happening at the same time as other malfunctions (eg. MCAS etc.), then the situation becomes much more dangerous.
After 1000 feet I noticed a decrease in aircraft performance. I picked up that the autothrottles were not moving to commanded position even though they were engaged. I'm sure they were set properly for takeoff but not sure when the discrepancy took place. My scan wasn't as well developed since I've only flown the MAX once before. I manually positioned the thrust levers ASAP. This resolved the threat, we were able to increase speed to clean up and continue the climb to 3000 feet.
Shortly afterwards I heard about the (other carrier) accident and am wondering if any other crews have experienced similar incidents with the autothrottle system on the MAX? Or I may have made a possible flying mistake which is more likely. The FO (First Officer) was still on his first month and was not able to identify whether it was the aircraft or me that was in error.
Shortly afterwards I heard about the (other carrier) accident and am wondering if any other crews have experienced similar incidents with the autothrottle system on the MAX? Or I may have made a possible flying mistake which is more likely. The FO (First Officer) was still on his first month and was not able to identify whether it was the aircraft or me that was in error.
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 206
Likes: 91
From: Canada
RTM Boy, a great post. I'm wondering whether this will be Boeing's DH Comet moment, whereby a technological solution to a (possible) problem may be overtaken/overwhelmed by public opinion. The 737 Max may be an exceptional aircraft but it would take very little for the mood to markedly swing in the direction of the A321 NEO.
just as fast as speculation fueled hysteria started - it will fade and joe public will go back to not caring in the least which variety of jet they are on.
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 630
Likes: 6
From: Canada
Canada joins the ban but the wording seems to allow the aircraft to be ferried (no passengers) back to home base.
Press Secretary
Office of the Honourable Marc Garneau
Minister of Transport, Ottawa
613-991-0700
[email protected]
Media Relations
Transport Canada, Ottawa
613-993-0055
[email protected]
Minister Garneau statement regarding restricting airspace to Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft
From: Transport CanadaStatement
March 13, 2019 Ottawa, Ontario Transport Canada
The Honourable Marc Garneau, Minister of Transport, issued the following statement today:
“My thoughts continue to go out to all those affected by the tragic aircraft accident involving an Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia.
“Following advice from Transport Canada Civil Aviation experts, as a precautionary measure, I am issuing a safety notice to address this issue. This safety notice restricts commercial passenger flights from any air operator, both domestic and foreign, of the Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft - from arriving, departing, or overflying Canadian airspace.
“This safety notice is effective immediately, and will remain in place until further notice.
“The advice the experts have provided is based on the information they have been receiving; the requirements for new procedures and training for Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 flight crews they have already put in place; and the latest information available from the incidents.
“It is too soon to speculate about the cause of the accident in Addis Ababa, and to make direct links to the Lion Air accident in Indonesia in October 2018; however, my department has been closely monitoring the investigations by the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and the Ethiopian Civil Aviation Authority.
“Following the Lion Air accident, Transport Canada adopted the Federal Aviation Administration’s (FAA) Airworthiness Directive. It also required that Canadian airlines who operate the Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft, put new procedures in place and implement additional crew training.
“We were one of the first countries to do so and not all countries have implemented this change. And these Canadian requirements for new procedures and training to protect against the risk identified went above and beyond the measures directed by the United States Federal Aviation Administration and Boeing – and above and beyond what other nations have done.
“Canada has an enviable aviation safety record because of the professionalism and safety-first focus of Canada’s aviation industry – those who design and manufacture aircraft, those who maintain them, our airports, our air traffic controllers and of course those who operate and fly the aircraft. It also due to the world-class knowledge, expertise and relentless focus on safety by Transport Canada officials who are responsible for developing regulations and ensuring compliance with those regulations.
“My departmental officials continue to monitor the situation and I will not hesitate to take swift action, should we discover any additional safety issues.”
The Honourable Marc Garneau, Minister of Transport, issued the following statement today:
“My thoughts continue to go out to all those affected by the tragic aircraft accident involving an Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia.
“Following advice from Transport Canada Civil Aviation experts, as a precautionary measure, I am issuing a safety notice to address this issue. This safety notice restricts commercial passenger flights from any air operator, both domestic and foreign, of the Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft - from arriving, departing, or overflying Canadian airspace.
“This safety notice is effective immediately, and will remain in place until further notice.
“The advice the experts have provided is based on the information they have been receiving; the requirements for new procedures and training for Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 flight crews they have already put in place; and the latest information available from the incidents.
“It is too soon to speculate about the cause of the accident in Addis Ababa, and to make direct links to the Lion Air accident in Indonesia in October 2018; however, my department has been closely monitoring the investigations by the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and the Ethiopian Civil Aviation Authority.
“Following the Lion Air accident, Transport Canada adopted the Federal Aviation Administration’s (FAA) Airworthiness Directive. It also required that Canadian airlines who operate the Boeing 737 MAX 8 and 9 aircraft, put new procedures in place and implement additional crew training.
“We were one of the first countries to do so and not all countries have implemented this change. And these Canadian requirements for new procedures and training to protect against the risk identified went above and beyond the measures directed by the United States Federal Aviation Administration and Boeing – and above and beyond what other nations have done.
“Canada has an enviable aviation safety record because of the professionalism and safety-first focus of Canada’s aviation industry – those who design and manufacture aircraft, those who maintain them, our airports, our air traffic controllers and of course those who operate and fly the aircraft. It also due to the world-class knowledge, expertise and relentless focus on safety by Transport Canada officials who are responsible for developing regulations and ensuring compliance with those regulations.
“My departmental officials continue to monitor the situation and I will not hesitate to take swift action, should we discover any additional safety issues.”
Contacts
Delphine DenisPress Secretary
Office of the Honourable Marc Garneau
Minister of Transport, Ottawa
613-991-0700
[email protected]
Media Relations
Transport Canada, Ottawa
613-993-0055
[email protected]
Search for related information by keyword: Transport Canada | Canada | Transport and infrastructure | general public | statements
Joined: Mar 2009
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From: Phoenix, AZ USA
I'm just curious what will happen when it's completely clear that two totally serviceable airframes were wrecked (this might not be entirely fair to the ET309 crew) by less then competent crews. Will all these regulatory bodies require demonstrated proficiency in raw data flying across all phases of normal operations?
Joined: Apr 2009
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 1,480
Likes: 484
From: A place in the sun
May I refer people once again to this podcast of D. P. Davies recounting some of the early problems when certificating the DH Comet (47 mins in) and the Boeing 707 (1hr 14mins in). Sometimes, designers and manufacturers take short cuts and sometimes the regulatory authority becomes 'too close' to the manufacturer. The 737 has morphed a long the way from a small shorthaul aircraft to something much larger, more powerful and with considerably greater range. This old 1960s design has needed many add-ons and modifications to achieve this. I do wonder whether this was a wise path to follow, and I also wonder whether the FAA has neglected to maintain sufficient distance when approving some of these changes.
https://www.aerosociety.com/news/aud...nnia-brabazon/
https://www.aerosociety.com/news/aud...nnia-brabazon/
