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Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

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Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

Old 10th Mar 2019, 12:55
  #81 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2019
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Originally Posted by J J Carter View Post
It's absurd that flight telemetry and data is not transmitted in real time to satellites and sent back to the aircraft manufacturer.rather than being recorded on FDRs that are lost at sea or destroyed
Same discussion every crash. It's a massive technical undertaking for very little benefit. FDR and CVR are nearly always found.

And now back to your flight simulator.
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Old 10th Mar 2019, 12:55
  #82 (permalink)  
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Thank you for that. Much appreciated.
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Old 10th Mar 2019, 13:03
  #83 (permalink)  
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"Captain asked to return" .... also same as JT610.
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Old 10th Mar 2019, 13:10
  #84 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Arrowhead View Post

"Security Alert: Addis Ababa (Ethiopia), Bole International Airport
Africa > Ethiopia > Addis Ababa
Location: Addis Ababa

Event: U.S. Government travelers may arrive or depart from Bole International Airport on Sunday, March 10. This updates the Security Alert sent on March 8, 2019. "
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Old 10th Mar 2019, 13:13
  #85 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2016
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Given the MCAS software update was delayed ubtil after Apr... this seems to point to a MCAS issue
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Old 10th Mar 2019, 13:15
  #86 (permalink)  
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I bet boeing are there big time. Will wait for report of course. RIP paxs and crew.
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Old 10th Mar 2019, 13:18
  #87 (permalink)  

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More rubbish than usual on this one. Ethiopian have a poor safety record for an airline its size. That is clear. And colleagues who fly for them have privately expressed concern about many safety-related issues at the airline. No details to share.

No conclusions can be drawn until the CVR and FDR are recovered and their contents analysed.
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Old 10th Mar 2019, 13:18
  #88 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by fox niner View Post
Whether or not the MCAS is to blame, remains to be seen.
Fact is, that someone at Boeing RIGHT NOW is saying to himself:
“I sure hope that the MCAS has nothing to do with it...!”
The other problem, is not talking about it. I am not on the Max, so don't know if specific instructions were given to operators. But within NG crews there are quite a few who still do not know and understand the MCAS system and its problems. So can history repeat itself? You bet.

And I still have to question the engineers who created MCAS. I can understand MCAS as a cheap (and semi-back-door) stick pusher system. It is far from ideal, but is a software change rather than a complete new system. Money rules, and MCAS was a cheap and simple fix....

However, I do have to question the logic of a pseudo-stick-push that keeps operating until you get full forward trim. Have you tried this MCAS-trim-runaway in the sim? According to the sim, the aircraft is only just about controllable with two gorillas hauling back on the stick (about 40 kg pressure on each stick). And that was in level flight with the CofG in the central position. Ok, now try a recovery from a stall-dive, with a forward CofG, 20º nose down pitch, and speed rapidly building back up to 250 kt. Absolutely impossible - you are doomed. And doomed by an anti-stall system that is supposed to save you. But who in the world would want to recover from a stall with the trim-stabiliser set fully forward? The stabiliser is more powerful than the elevator. Heck, even the Wright Brothers knew not to do something like that.

And I also have to question an aircraft that has not been designed by anyone. The 737 was designed for the 727 (or 707) back in the 50s (the type-certificate is 1967), but since that time there has been mod after mod after mod. Never going back to basics, but simply a series of mods upon mods. It is like driving a Model-T Ford, with a new 300 hp engine and a new dashboard. For instance, the 737 is still the only aircraft I have flown, where the controls cannot be split if there is a control jam. And still it flies...

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Old 10th Mar 2019, 13:18
  #89 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by JCviggen View Post
If that earlier picture shows the main crash site I wonder if there is anything left of the FDRs.
Recorders were recovered from the Germanwings Airbus that was all but vapourised on a French mountainside.
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Old 10th Mar 2019, 13:18
  #90 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by c_coder View Post

Event: The U.S. Embassy is aware of calls for a protest to be held on Sunday, March 10, 2019 at Meskel Square. It is unknown whether the protest has been or will be approved by Ethiopian authorities. Protests have already occurred in many parts of the Oromia region since March 6, and additional protests may materialize.U.S. Embassy personnel are advised to avoid Meskel Square and limit movement around Addis Ababa on Sunday, March 10. U.S. Government travelers have been advised not to arrive or depart Bole International Airport on Sunday, March 10, and U.S. Embassy personnel are also temporarily prohibited from traveling to Oromia.Actions to Take:
  • Monitor local media for updates.
  • Avoid crowds
  • Avoid demonstrations.
  • Be aware of your surroundings.
  • Keep a low profile.

U.S. Embassy Addis Ababa, Ethiopia


Eyewitness: The blast and fire were so strong

Our colleague Jibat Tamirat from BBC Amharic has just spoken with a man, Bekele Gutema, who says he was near the crash site around the town of Bishoftu, which is 60km (37 miles) south-east of the capital.He says: "The blast and the fire were so strong that we couldn’t get near it. Everything is burnt down. The firefighters arrived around 11 and the crash happened around 8. There are four helicopters at the scene now. No one will survive."
The U.S. government sends these email/twitter alerts out to U.S. citizens almost as often as Nigerian Princes ask for help in recovering lost money. I get about 20-30 of these alerts every year in Copenhagen.
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Old 10th Mar 2019, 13:21
  #91 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by MungoP View Post
We have no ideas beyond some possibly educated guess-work as to what happened here but I do have a question that can be answered by someone with the relevant experience. As a 10,000 + hr career pilot I'm not exactly a newby but have not any experience with the latest sophisticated systems being introduced on modern aircraft.
Q. Is there something preventing pilots of these aircraft from simply hitting a 'disconnect' button, listening for the 'C' tone and then getting on with flying manually ? Not suggesting that this is relevant to this accident.
No there is not. Sadly disconnecting the autopilot scares some commercial pilots.
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Old 10th Mar 2019, 13:25
  #92 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by etrang View Post
This is only the second 737 Max accidents since the aircraft was launched, so it is premature to be calling for its grounding.
One could replace the word 'only' with 'already' which, in my opinion, is a more faithful representation of the present situation.

To wit, a brand new derivative of a 50-year old design, engineered and built by one of the two premier commercial airframe manufacturers, should not have suffered two crashes within such a short time-span. Particularly not if the first may have had a questionable piece of software, relying on a single sensor input, as a major contributing factor. If this, second, accident is in any way linked to the first by a common failure, the only prudent cause of action will be to ground the fleet and allow the manufacturer to get things straightened out.
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Old 10th Mar 2019, 13:25
  #93 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by NEDude View Post
The U.S. government sends these email/twitter alerts out to U.S. citizens almost as often as Nigerian Princes ask for help in recovering lost money. I get about 20-30 of these alerts every year in Copenhagen.
And as I mentioned above, this one had already been superceded.

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Old 10th Mar 2019, 13:26
  #94 (permalink)  
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A very sad day for Ethiopian Airlines. My grandfather was the very first Flight Surgeon and Chief Medical Officer of Ethiopian Airlines. I've personally been flying them since 1976. And it's my go to airline when flying to/from or in Africa. So all the way from Austin, TX, this one hits close to home.
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Old 10th Mar 2019, 13:26
  #95 (permalink)  
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Looking at the crash site, there is virtually nothing left.

Compare this with the MH17 crash site, shot down from 33,000 feet.
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Old 10th Mar 2019, 13:28
  #96 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2009
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Boeing will be hit hard by this accident, regardless of the issue that caused it, all news agencies already speculating just as bad as ppruners here.
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Old 10th Mar 2019, 13:30
  #97 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by nojwod View Post
Oh puh lease which planet are you on? Ethiopian has always been a very professional airline with an excellent safety record and mostly excellent service and reliability. They were managed by TWA during the 60s and 70s and have always kept their professionalism intact. I find your comments offensive.
erhiopian isn’t a “chicken bus”. They have new aircraft and the loveliest cabin crew of any airline I’ve travelled on. Their management is a different lot altogether. Pilots are flown well over any legal or normal limits. Rest rules are blatantly ignored. This is a known fact with the airline and well documented.
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Old 10th Mar 2019, 13:35
  #98 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by RoyHudd View Post
And colleagues who fly for them have privately expressed concern about many safety-related issues at the airline. No details to share.
Absolutely right. And absolutely right not to share.
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Old 10th Mar 2019, 13:38
  #99 (permalink)  
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From AH:
The last transponder data were received from position N9.027 E39.153 about 21nm east of Addis Ababa at FL086. Terrain elevation at that point is 8130 feet MSL, FL086 reported by the Mode-S Altimeter (which always measures to standard pressure 1013 QNH) corrected for QNH indicates the aircraft was flying at 9027 feet MSL at that position.
Not too far above terrain on the last return.
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Old 10th Mar 2019, 13:44
  #100 (permalink)  
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imho and from local knowledge the terrain shown doesn't look like the flat plateau to the E Bole where trees are scarce and the wooded area in the photo is much more like that found to the south but that isn't a very scientific judgement.
However media are reporting that Bole lost contact at 0844 while the flight radar table above shows contact lost at 0841. Since it took them 3 minutes or so to reach the FR "lost contact" area and Debre Zeyt is about the same distance beyond in a right hand turn (due to terrain you wouldn't turn left/to the N to do that) to recover back to Bole that does look like a better location for the accident. It is also right about where you'd be 6 mins after deprture en route to NBO.
They'll be lucky to find recoverable recorders in that impact I suspect.

Last edited by meleagertoo; 10th Mar 2019 at 13:59.
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