john frohnsdorff elected BALPA General Secretary
Join Date: Jun 2002
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Danny,
I could not agree more with what you say about the problems of perception and reality. It would be sad if what happens is a vote based on what may be a false perception due to little research should have left BALPA weakened in the eyes of those who would wish us to so be, i.e. "the bosses" That those perceptions of whatever accuracy, became firmly planted is a reflection on the levels and sophistication of communications today. Like all good things it can be a mixed blessing. Stoppping a good rumour is , well difficult to say the least ! Reality that tries to stop it usually looks pretty pathetic.
You are quite right about the perception issue, reality is often quite different and can sometimes "stand in the way of a good story" as the press would say. That is something of a shame and does perhaps reflect on us (pilots) as a group who would like to think that we only deal in facts.
Whether the BALPA can get it's act together on communications and get an easy to use website for the varied desires of users is another question. That it should is absolutely vital.
The needs range from boring stuff that we Techies like to spread around, like the odd specialist reporting form for ATC deficiencies in Africa (hot topic for all you fellahs, if you don't report it in writing, we have no ammunition to get it fixed, rumour and word of mouth no matter how accurate , does not impress the politicians involved, so please help!) to indusdtrial information and discussion forums.
The benefit icould be that such discussion can be closed if desired, as the warning says on these pages, anyone can read and you may not want that either. Always surprises me how many discuss this stuff on the BA compuserve forums, better than having a bug in the oppositions dining room !
BALPA cannot go back to what existed on the day before the result, it can only go forward. some painful lessons learned as they say.
One should also add, neither is it realistically possible to go back to those days of 5 or 10 years ago in terms of employment conditions, no matter how idyllic they may seem from a distance, as the world has moved on. One can only try and get the best deal that is possible now in to-days conditions. The mint sauce will never again appear with lamb in the Karachi rest house ! or the shorthaul cheese tray grace the centre consol of a three engined jet built near Potters bar, to name but a few of those cherished iconss of an earlier era. However one hopes that on todays very cut and thrust and increasingly global industry, that BALPA gets a General Secretary who as a full time official working under the direction of the NEC and its constituent members drawn from the membership by democratic ballot, can deal with the necessary cut and thrust environment within which the movers and shakers of airline management operate. He or she, must provide the necessary support to ensure that when BALPA representatives negotiate our future terms and conditions, that they are the best that can be realistically be obtained with a view to our long term security of employment and professional standing. They must not be those which may give a short term headline boosting ego trip for the negotiating team and a long term disbenefit to the members who may have to pay the ultimate cost of loss of employment, howver unpopular this may be in the short term to some people.
Thanks for the opportunity to reply, off to bed now, another set of happy trainees to deal with at 6 am!
Martin Alder
I could not agree more with what you say about the problems of perception and reality. It would be sad if what happens is a vote based on what may be a false perception due to little research should have left BALPA weakened in the eyes of those who would wish us to so be, i.e. "the bosses" That those perceptions of whatever accuracy, became firmly planted is a reflection on the levels and sophistication of communications today. Like all good things it can be a mixed blessing. Stoppping a good rumour is , well difficult to say the least ! Reality that tries to stop it usually looks pretty pathetic.
You are quite right about the perception issue, reality is often quite different and can sometimes "stand in the way of a good story" as the press would say. That is something of a shame and does perhaps reflect on us (pilots) as a group who would like to think that we only deal in facts.
Whether the BALPA can get it's act together on communications and get an easy to use website for the varied desires of users is another question. That it should is absolutely vital.
The needs range from boring stuff that we Techies like to spread around, like the odd specialist reporting form for ATC deficiencies in Africa (hot topic for all you fellahs, if you don't report it in writing, we have no ammunition to get it fixed, rumour and word of mouth no matter how accurate , does not impress the politicians involved, so please help!) to indusdtrial information and discussion forums.
The benefit icould be that such discussion can be closed if desired, as the warning says on these pages, anyone can read and you may not want that either. Always surprises me how many discuss this stuff on the BA compuserve forums, better than having a bug in the oppositions dining room !
BALPA cannot go back to what existed on the day before the result, it can only go forward. some painful lessons learned as they say.
One should also add, neither is it realistically possible to go back to those days of 5 or 10 years ago in terms of employment conditions, no matter how idyllic they may seem from a distance, as the world has moved on. One can only try and get the best deal that is possible now in to-days conditions. The mint sauce will never again appear with lamb in the Karachi rest house ! or the shorthaul cheese tray grace the centre consol of a three engined jet built near Potters bar, to name but a few of those cherished iconss of an earlier era. However one hopes that on todays very cut and thrust and increasingly global industry, that BALPA gets a General Secretary who as a full time official working under the direction of the NEC and its constituent members drawn from the membership by democratic ballot, can deal with the necessary cut and thrust environment within which the movers and shakers of airline management operate. He or she, must provide the necessary support to ensure that when BALPA representatives negotiate our future terms and conditions, that they are the best that can be realistically be obtained with a view to our long term security of employment and professional standing. They must not be those which may give a short term headline boosting ego trip for the negotiating team and a long term disbenefit to the members who may have to pay the ultimate cost of loss of employment, howver unpopular this may be in the short term to some people.
Thanks for the opportunity to reply, off to bed now, another set of happy trainees to deal with at 6 am!
Martin Alder
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Martin,
You make you viewpoint very clear, obviously a little dissappointed in the Election Results.
I see you have resorted to the old;
”don’t think of what BALPA can do for you, but what you can do for BALPA”. I agree with the sentiment this expresses but is insufficient as an arguement every time a member expresses discontent with the union. Although it sounds like a logical arguement, it fails in it's basic premise by ignoring the fact that we are doing our bit, simply by using our VOTE to elect those able and dedicated Reps who have volunteered to represent our viewpoints. That is why we pay 1% and have a structural organisation, including HQ, in the first place, so we don't stumble around BALPA as an aimless group of 10,000 individuals. Gov't works in the same way....we elect those who we hope will make the necessary decisions for the benefit of society. We don't all have to be Prime Minister's just so society can get it's act together. In fact the more of us who did, the worst the results would be.
The majority of members felt a change was necessary in the way BALPA HQ supported the CC's. They felt that as GS over the past 10years the end result on T&C's of pilots has been degraded and as ultimate head of our union surely CD had to take some responsibility for this as our full-time Guru? We as members have "done what we can do for BALPA" and that has started by voting for a new GS. Whether myth or a symptom of the late 90's, we know our T&C's have detriorated and as our reps are Part-time as you suggest, then surely it is the professional guidance that they were getting that was insufficient. At the very least we felt it important enough that we should have been properly informed(maybe by a letter from MG without being prompted first by concerned members)that the position of head of our 10,000 strong union was up for re-election, and that a fair and non-discriminatory Election process would be carried out if necessary. Big Oversight !!!
Your comment about flagging out, although persuasive is also flawed. Buying an imported car is legal if not nice, flagging out longterm is not legal so your arguement doesn't hold water. If you are in BALPA(NEC perhaps) then I would expect anyone in that sort of position to realise the difference of legalities between the two. If not then is there any wonder why flagging out exists to the extent it does. If MG has done a great job in this area then I would like to thank him personally. Good or not, it is irrelevant to the fact he overstepped himself in the recent elections. His actions were unrepentant and unapologetic despite being thinly legal(according to whose lawyers?)and certainly not Nice. I can only suppose which of his actions are forefront in members minds the next time his position is up for re-election. Another victim of the modern world I hazard to guess.
I must also say that I resent your comment "You need someone who, when the part timers are not around ". This smacks of the sort of arrogance that got the members upset about our union HQ in the first place. Our dedicated Part-time and unpaid BALPA reps also carry out a Full-Time flying job. If anyone should be questioned about being part-time it should be CD who we paid handsomely yet still found time, to our recent amazement, to sit 1.5 days/week on the Competition-Commission.
In fact most of your post has hints of HQ/NEC arrogance throughout. You seem to think that you know best for us and that we should sit back, pay our money and take your word for it yet contradictorily you spout "ask what you can do for BALPA" responses. You act as if BALPA is the father-figure for us poor stupid adolescents who don't know better. This would be all the more acceptable or believeable if BALPA had been delivering consistently for the past 10years. As this is far from the case, perhaps you don't know whats best for us. Perhaps in your arrogance you have gotten side-tracked or comfortable in your positions so that you feel less likely to stick your head above the parapet. Perhaps a change of viewpoint is needed. Perhaps we're willing to get a little mud on our faces to acheive what we think we deserve. At the very least you've failed to understand what it is that we do want.
As for the appointment of the new GS. I am more than happy for JF to put the candidates to the general members for election. If we would have let the CC's elect the GS this time around CD would have got in with a resounding victory. But would this have really been a better judge of what the general members wanted..... at 2-1 against, I would say not. What reassurance can you give me that the same error of judgement would not occur at the NEC level ? You are the one telling us to stand up and take an active part in BALPA. Alright then, so why do you think it beyond us to participate in the GS appointment ?
You are right that the world is changing. If CD was the best man for the job we will never know it. He did fail however in not sufficiently keeping in touch with the desires of those under his remit. BALPA at the highest levels need to realise the importance of Communication in todays world and this has been it's wake-up call. We never used to have mobiles, e-mails, forums, Internet. It can be used as a very powerful and effective tool if used correctly, ignore it and the ease of Communication it provides, at your own peril. Used effectively and it should send shivers down the executives of any comany with an established union. The world is no longer FLAT. There is no excuse or mercy for losing touch with the people whose careers you have agreed to protect and advance. The days of "daddy knows best" is finished as BALPA emerges from its adolesence. I hope we have learned our lesson and are calculating how best to navigate this new circular world of Communication.
PS: Has your psychologist helped you figure out what my alias might represent ? Heres a hint the "rage" part does not mean contemptment with the present state of affairs.
You make you viewpoint very clear, obviously a little dissappointed in the Election Results.
I see you have resorted to the old;
”don’t think of what BALPA can do for you, but what you can do for BALPA”. I agree with the sentiment this expresses but is insufficient as an arguement every time a member expresses discontent with the union. Although it sounds like a logical arguement, it fails in it's basic premise by ignoring the fact that we are doing our bit, simply by using our VOTE to elect those able and dedicated Reps who have volunteered to represent our viewpoints. That is why we pay 1% and have a structural organisation, including HQ, in the first place, so we don't stumble around BALPA as an aimless group of 10,000 individuals. Gov't works in the same way....we elect those who we hope will make the necessary decisions for the benefit of society. We don't all have to be Prime Minister's just so society can get it's act together. In fact the more of us who did, the worst the results would be.
The majority of members felt a change was necessary in the way BALPA HQ supported the CC's. They felt that as GS over the past 10years the end result on T&C's of pilots has been degraded and as ultimate head of our union surely CD had to take some responsibility for this as our full-time Guru? We as members have "done what we can do for BALPA" and that has started by voting for a new GS. Whether myth or a symptom of the late 90's, we know our T&C's have detriorated and as our reps are Part-time as you suggest, then surely it is the professional guidance that they were getting that was insufficient. At the very least we felt it important enough that we should have been properly informed(maybe by a letter from MG without being prompted first by concerned members)that the position of head of our 10,000 strong union was up for re-election, and that a fair and non-discriminatory Election process would be carried out if necessary. Big Oversight !!!
Your comment about flagging out, although persuasive is also flawed. Buying an imported car is legal if not nice, flagging out longterm is not legal so your arguement doesn't hold water. If you are in BALPA(NEC perhaps) then I would expect anyone in that sort of position to realise the difference of legalities between the two. If not then is there any wonder why flagging out exists to the extent it does. If MG has done a great job in this area then I would like to thank him personally. Good or not, it is irrelevant to the fact he overstepped himself in the recent elections. His actions were unrepentant and unapologetic despite being thinly legal(according to whose lawyers?)and certainly not Nice. I can only suppose which of his actions are forefront in members minds the next time his position is up for re-election. Another victim of the modern world I hazard to guess.
I must also say that I resent your comment "You need someone who, when the part timers are not around ". This smacks of the sort of arrogance that got the members upset about our union HQ in the first place. Our dedicated Part-time and unpaid BALPA reps also carry out a Full-Time flying job. If anyone should be questioned about being part-time it should be CD who we paid handsomely yet still found time, to our recent amazement, to sit 1.5 days/week on the Competition-Commission.
In fact most of your post has hints of HQ/NEC arrogance throughout. You seem to think that you know best for us and that we should sit back, pay our money and take your word for it yet contradictorily you spout "ask what you can do for BALPA" responses. You act as if BALPA is the father-figure for us poor stupid adolescents who don't know better. This would be all the more acceptable or believeable if BALPA had been delivering consistently for the past 10years. As this is far from the case, perhaps you don't know whats best for us. Perhaps in your arrogance you have gotten side-tracked or comfortable in your positions so that you feel less likely to stick your head above the parapet. Perhaps a change of viewpoint is needed. Perhaps we're willing to get a little mud on our faces to acheive what we think we deserve. At the very least you've failed to understand what it is that we do want.
As for the appointment of the new GS. I am more than happy for JF to put the candidates to the general members for election. If we would have let the CC's elect the GS this time around CD would have got in with a resounding victory. But would this have really been a better judge of what the general members wanted..... at 2-1 against, I would say not. What reassurance can you give me that the same error of judgement would not occur at the NEC level ? You are the one telling us to stand up and take an active part in BALPA. Alright then, so why do you think it beyond us to participate in the GS appointment ?
You are right that the world is changing. If CD was the best man for the job we will never know it. He did fail however in not sufficiently keeping in touch with the desires of those under his remit. BALPA at the highest levels need to realise the importance of Communication in todays world and this has been it's wake-up call. We never used to have mobiles, e-mails, forums, Internet. It can be used as a very powerful and effective tool if used correctly, ignore it and the ease of Communication it provides, at your own peril. Used effectively and it should send shivers down the executives of any comany with an established union. The world is no longer FLAT. There is no excuse or mercy for losing touch with the people whose careers you have agreed to protect and advance. The days of "daddy knows best" is finished as BALPA emerges from its adolesence. I hope we have learned our lesson and are calculating how best to navigate this new circular world of Communication.
PS: Has your psychologist helped you figure out what my alias might represent ? Heres a hint the "rage" part does not mean contemptment with the present state of affairs.
Last edited by airrage; 23rd Jun 2002 at 20:32.
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"That is why we pay 1% and have a structural organisation, including HQ, in the first place, so we don't stumble around BALPA as an aimless group of 10,000 individuals."
The trouble is that you and others like you expect FAR too much for your 1%. Many people expect to part with 1% of their salary and then do nothing. What is being said is that you get back what you put in and that is fair - would you be willing to INCREASE your contribution level to 2% ? What effect do you think that would have on the membership level.
I for one was surprised to find out that John F expects it to take 2 months to get a new BALPA GS in place. This is a ridiculous amount of time. I only hope my employer does not decide to take advantage - if I were him I certainly would. From the letter I got today from BALPA HQ it is clear to me that John F supports change for the sake of it and not just because it is needed.
Martin A is absolutely correct - we need to make sure that our expectations are not completely out of synch with the industry. Most of all, you get out of BALPA what you put in.
Think about it and stop talking complete bull****
The trouble is that you and others like you expect FAR too much for your 1%. Many people expect to part with 1% of their salary and then do nothing. What is being said is that you get back what you put in and that is fair - would you be willing to INCREASE your contribution level to 2% ? What effect do you think that would have on the membership level.
I for one was surprised to find out that John F expects it to take 2 months to get a new BALPA GS in place. This is a ridiculous amount of time. I only hope my employer does not decide to take advantage - if I were him I certainly would. From the letter I got today from BALPA HQ it is clear to me that John F supports change for the sake of it and not just because it is needed.
Martin A is absolutely correct - we need to make sure that our expectations are not completely out of synch with the industry. Most of all, you get out of BALPA what you put in.
Think about it and stop talking complete bull****
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Yeah, think about it, you're lucky to have a job! You're lucky your employers didn't sack you after Sept 11th and you're lucky you have the chance to work 25% harder next year for the same or less cash. CD did all he could, there was no need to get rid of him. You should accept things can only get worse, never better. Spend more of your time on making what you have go further instead of stirring up trouble. 'Flagging out' is a fait accompli, there's nothing you, I or BALPA can do about it and you should hunker down and do as much work as you can now before all aircraft are operated that way. Be happy with what you've got, you've never had it so good.
sarcasm = off
sarcasm = off
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Hear hear.
Fuzzy112 - If you want to be sold further down the river then be my guest and get eaten by Atilla the Hun. Change is what is absolultely necessary. As a professional body, we have been shafted for far too long now.
I'm getting sod all from my employer this year in terms of a pay rise whilst having to work harder and watch some colleagues being made redundant. I don't think its unreasonable to expect something for my 1%. Balpa has had a large membership increase since Sep 11th and instead of having a continual erosion of terms and conditions, its time a fresh Balpa hierachy said "no" and started earning our contributions.
Fuzzy112 - If you want to be sold further down the river then be my guest and get eaten by Atilla the Hun. Change is what is absolultely necessary. As a professional body, we have been shafted for far too long now.
I'm getting sod all from my employer this year in terms of a pay rise whilst having to work harder and watch some colleagues being made redundant. I don't think its unreasonable to expect something for my 1%. Balpa has had a large membership increase since Sep 11th and instead of having a continual erosion of terms and conditions, its time a fresh Balpa hierachy said "no" and started earning our contributions.
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Fuzzy thank you for that extremely well thought out and eloquently written response. Another person dissappointed by the Election results I take it.
If you read my post correctly you would have noticed that I said I agree in principle with, "you get out of BALPA what you put in". But I said it fails as an adequate response if used continually to quell a BALPA member simply because they are dissatisfied.
I am not DEMANDING anything for my 1% other than what BALPA represents. This is stated clearily on their website;
Employment Benefits
Financial Benefits
Enhanced careers
Quality of life
Improved salaries
Better pensions
Personal representation
Technical and Medical
Pilots Advisory Group
BALPA can help pilots and flight engineers secure jobs, get better jobs, and improve
their salaries and pensions.
In short, enhance their careers and their lifestyle.
BALPA offers personal representation and a wealth of technical and medical services.
And there is formidable legal and expert back-up in cases of incident, accident, loss of
licence and any discipliniary procedures.
Just as important is BALPA’s pursuit of flight crew interests with the Government and
with all the regulatory bodies in the UK, the rest of Europe and the world.
Back to my rant;
If as you say, I am demanding too much for my 1%, then perhaps it is BALPA trying to act like Father again and keeping it's financial difficulties from it's stupid children. If BALPA need to increase subscriptions to 2% or higher to provide for BALPA's activities then they should try Communicating this to us. As long as the funding requirement could be seen as necessary then I am sure we would accomodate this, like we've accomodated our employers for the last 10years.
You say;
"JF supports change for the sake of it and not just because it is needed." Re-read my last post.....change was needed. No one is denying CD probably worked as hard as he could for us, he failed by not establishing proper 2-way communication with members and if he did he would have realised we wanted stronger action. If our 1% was insufficient to accomplish our goals then he failed to Communicate this as well. Bob Ayling was probably a brilliant man who worked hard, with a great bussiness mind, yet he failed as a leader. Do you see any parallels. In todays world, it is just as important how you are perceived as what you accomplish quietly in the background. With all of the cheap tools available to one today, failing to Communicate is now defined as Arrogance or Ignorance of the changed world .......they call it the INFORMATION AGE.
Our expectations are not out of synch with the industry. BALPA's expectations/goals have been out of synch with it's members, this is now being rectified. I suggest that if you are a BALPA rep and believe the goals of the general membership are unattainable that you do us all a favour and resign immediately.
As for JF taking 2months to find a new GS, its better than having the wrong guy in place for 10years don't you think ? In the meantime I'm sure the BALPA HQ structural efficiencies will fall into place as they have been designed. I'm confident Graham Fowler is equally if not more competent than an absent GS off on the milk run at the Competition Commissions HQ's.
AS an aside;
I am wondering about the bitterness and anger being expressed by those who obviously never succeeded in getting their preferred GS candidate elected. What is it that those who voted for CD dislike the most about having a viewpoint considered in the minority ? Is it simply that you don't like getting your own way ? or is it the uneasiness caused by suddenly realising that your viewpoint is actually that held by the minority and not everyone ? by the way, does your spouse accuse you of always having to be right? you must be great CRM advocates. Elections over, the people have spoken, lets get on with the future.
If you read my post correctly you would have noticed that I said I agree in principle with, "you get out of BALPA what you put in". But I said it fails as an adequate response if used continually to quell a BALPA member simply because they are dissatisfied.
I am not DEMANDING anything for my 1% other than what BALPA represents. This is stated clearily on their website;
Employment Benefits
Financial Benefits
Enhanced careers
Quality of life
Improved salaries
Better pensions
Personal representation
Technical and Medical
Pilots Advisory Group
BALPA can help pilots and flight engineers secure jobs, get better jobs, and improve
their salaries and pensions.
In short, enhance their careers and their lifestyle.
BALPA offers personal representation and a wealth of technical and medical services.
And there is formidable legal and expert back-up in cases of incident, accident, loss of
licence and any discipliniary procedures.
Just as important is BALPA’s pursuit of flight crew interests with the Government and
with all the regulatory bodies in the UK, the rest of Europe and the world.
Back to my rant;
If as you say, I am demanding too much for my 1%, then perhaps it is BALPA trying to act like Father again and keeping it's financial difficulties from it's stupid children. If BALPA need to increase subscriptions to 2% or higher to provide for BALPA's activities then they should try Communicating this to us. As long as the funding requirement could be seen as necessary then I am sure we would accomodate this, like we've accomodated our employers for the last 10years.
You say;
"JF supports change for the sake of it and not just because it is needed." Re-read my last post.....change was needed. No one is denying CD probably worked as hard as he could for us, he failed by not establishing proper 2-way communication with members and if he did he would have realised we wanted stronger action. If our 1% was insufficient to accomplish our goals then he failed to Communicate this as well. Bob Ayling was probably a brilliant man who worked hard, with a great bussiness mind, yet he failed as a leader. Do you see any parallels. In todays world, it is just as important how you are perceived as what you accomplish quietly in the background. With all of the cheap tools available to one today, failing to Communicate is now defined as Arrogance or Ignorance of the changed world .......they call it the INFORMATION AGE.
Our expectations are not out of synch with the industry. BALPA's expectations/goals have been out of synch with it's members, this is now being rectified. I suggest that if you are a BALPA rep and believe the goals of the general membership are unattainable that you do us all a favour and resign immediately.
As for JF taking 2months to find a new GS, its better than having the wrong guy in place for 10years don't you think ? In the meantime I'm sure the BALPA HQ structural efficiencies will fall into place as they have been designed. I'm confident Graham Fowler is equally if not more competent than an absent GS off on the milk run at the Competition Commissions HQ's.
AS an aside;
I am wondering about the bitterness and anger being expressed by those who obviously never succeeded in getting their preferred GS candidate elected. What is it that those who voted for CD dislike the most about having a viewpoint considered in the minority ? Is it simply that you don't like getting your own way ? or is it the uneasiness caused by suddenly realising that your viewpoint is actually that held by the minority and not everyone ? by the way, does your spouse accuse you of always having to be right? you must be great CRM advocates. Elections over, the people have spoken, lets get on with the future.
Last edited by airrage; 25th Jun 2002 at 10:50.
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airrage Why don't you stand for election to the BALPA NEC.
That would make it easier for you to carry out your masterplan, benefit us all and save all this verbiage.
Just a suggestion
That would make it easier for you to carry out your masterplan, benefit us all and save all this verbiage.
Just a suggestion
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Boeingman, I could never run for any BALPA Election, they limit your Election address to under 200 words.
Martin A, I'm getting really worried, you've been spell-checking your post for nearly 4hours now. I don't want to lose out on the word counting competition.
My shortest post yet.
Martin A, I'm getting really worried, you've been spell-checking your post for nearly 4hours now. I don't want to lose out on the word counting competition.
My shortest post yet.
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Sorry it has been longer than 4 hours. She who must be obeyed returned ! Had to hold conversation over meaningful things, so the reply is behind schedule ( foretaste of planned 35 min turnrounds at LHR?)
Trying to create short reply to throw word count contest into confusion and give the backers with the best odds a chance of winning !
TTFN
Martin A
Trying to create short reply to throw word count contest into confusion and give the backers with the best odds a chance of winning !
TTFN
Martin A
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A yes, the “doing our bit by simply voting”. As someone else has said already, that is only part of it. No need for 8000 Prime ministers, just need someone to do the work. Much as BALPA would like to have large Technical Section , the reality is it is not. We do have some very good people who are employed by BALPA to give us our secretariat ( A Tech Sec, Assistant Tech Sec plus small support staff) but the meetings etc are attended by good old volunteers who write up their own reports etc, for out of pocket expenses only, so no benefit from your subs. Of course they also lose FHR allowances whilst doing this “part time “ job, as they are only full time at flying, as you pointed out. Not to belittle their contribution as “part timers”, they are all committed, but merely to point out that if a JAA, or other meeting comes up at short notice, you cannot always get someone there, no matter how vital it is that you do, an inherent limitation. Full time paid staff would do it, but at a vast increase in cost. I will see if we can get an idea of the number of man days the Technical Section uses its volunteers for in a year. The same limitation applies to any other section i.e. industrial and CCs etc, using full time pilots to do Association work, including the Gen Secs post.
As to negotiations etc, I understand that they are all done and accepted by the CCs locally not by the Gen Sec. The advantage if that is correct, is that the CCs own the result, after all who would like as an alternative to a management imposed solution a BALPA head office imposed one ! The solution may not suit all within a company constituency and may have been agreed as a result of advice from the Head Office, but the acceptance of it is down to the CC and that is surely where the aggrieved should seek a solution. I would think that having access to Head Office advice is useful in that inevitably there is a risk of an emotional and hence illogical support developing in “local” negotiations for some courses of action. A Head Office able to look at things a little more distantly has its advantages.
As to where some spend part of their time, i.e. Competition Commission. Well it gives access to the politicians, who in the end, are the ones who decide if “flagging out” is legal or not. Probably looks good on CD’s CV, but why not if it gives BALPA another “in” to influence the politics of commerce that affect our lives? By the way BALPA is constantly writing to DTLR and raising this issue.
I only mentioned MGs bit about FTLs, for which he has spent a lot of time over the last 10 years or so, no idea about his bits on flagging out ! We , as an Association are fighting for decent FTLs in the EU, but it is not easy and needs people to go to lots of meetings arguing a rational and supportable case, all in their spare time, at a considerable personal cost in money and time.
As to the continuing change in our conditions over 10 years, sure things have changed, read what our forebears in the early 50’s had, , lots of trimmings with the job and god like status. However if that were to apply now, remember that probably only about 10% of us would have a job to service the size of industry that would exist ! Not to be complacent, but economics are a fact of life (apart from FTSE 100 Directors it seems !) and changes happen. Relative to some we have declined and to others improved. Always nicer to improve, but there are still (at the current money) lots of people wanting to do our job for less than we get paid. This gives downward pressure on our economic status, just as we do it to others we purchase services.
As to JF seemingly picking his successor, as he states,. Well, this is not healthy, as it sets a precedent. Who you have been happy with CD picking his ? I think not ! No the Gen Sec cannot logically be involved in choosing his successor, it becomes a “grace and favour” post or dynasty then. No better than the NEC supporting any single candidate over another.
As to the apparent support that CD had from MG in the letter. Well given the near unanimous support at a recent ADC that I observed, one would hardly be surprised! It took 18 months to find CD in the first place, not 2 months it is proposed we will be able to find his replacement in. I could imagine that there may have been a bit of shock at the concept we ditch the one we have, elect someone who merely wanted to remove him, ( I assume resignation is imminent as promised) and then go out and find another one, all whilst a number of CCs are about to enter battle in regaining lost money etc as a result of 11/9 et al needing good industrial relations advice and the like. Kind of like sends out the wrong message in terms of strength and unity perhaps ?
I am not saying Daddy knows best ( but we all say that to our teenagers !), just some of what circulates may not be the best information on which to formulate a position. Yes communications are important and technically interesting, but volume is no alternative to content. Some stuff is sensitive and probably best not in the public domain, hopefully your reps can be trusted and you have the confidence in what they do with it. Other stuff, just takes time to get out, adds nothing to the debate and costs someone time (their own sapre time , not popular with wife and kids !) to do it. How many do read the Log ? Some obviously don’t and yet it does at least come in an easy portable format and doesn’t crash when to you turn the page ! Just filling up the internet with more of it would not be the answer, so ideas please?
TTFN
Martin A
As to negotiations etc, I understand that they are all done and accepted by the CCs locally not by the Gen Sec. The advantage if that is correct, is that the CCs own the result, after all who would like as an alternative to a management imposed solution a BALPA head office imposed one ! The solution may not suit all within a company constituency and may have been agreed as a result of advice from the Head Office, but the acceptance of it is down to the CC and that is surely where the aggrieved should seek a solution. I would think that having access to Head Office advice is useful in that inevitably there is a risk of an emotional and hence illogical support developing in “local” negotiations for some courses of action. A Head Office able to look at things a little more distantly has its advantages.
As to where some spend part of their time, i.e. Competition Commission. Well it gives access to the politicians, who in the end, are the ones who decide if “flagging out” is legal or not. Probably looks good on CD’s CV, but why not if it gives BALPA another “in” to influence the politics of commerce that affect our lives? By the way BALPA is constantly writing to DTLR and raising this issue.
I only mentioned MGs bit about FTLs, for which he has spent a lot of time over the last 10 years or so, no idea about his bits on flagging out ! We , as an Association are fighting for decent FTLs in the EU, but it is not easy and needs people to go to lots of meetings arguing a rational and supportable case, all in their spare time, at a considerable personal cost in money and time.
As to the continuing change in our conditions over 10 years, sure things have changed, read what our forebears in the early 50’s had, , lots of trimmings with the job and god like status. However if that were to apply now, remember that probably only about 10% of us would have a job to service the size of industry that would exist ! Not to be complacent, but economics are a fact of life (apart from FTSE 100 Directors it seems !) and changes happen. Relative to some we have declined and to others improved. Always nicer to improve, but there are still (at the current money) lots of people wanting to do our job for less than we get paid. This gives downward pressure on our economic status, just as we do it to others we purchase services.
As to JF seemingly picking his successor, as he states,. Well, this is not healthy, as it sets a precedent. Who you have been happy with CD picking his ? I think not ! No the Gen Sec cannot logically be involved in choosing his successor, it becomes a “grace and favour” post or dynasty then. No better than the NEC supporting any single candidate over another.
As to the apparent support that CD had from MG in the letter. Well given the near unanimous support at a recent ADC that I observed, one would hardly be surprised! It took 18 months to find CD in the first place, not 2 months it is proposed we will be able to find his replacement in. I could imagine that there may have been a bit of shock at the concept we ditch the one we have, elect someone who merely wanted to remove him, ( I assume resignation is imminent as promised) and then go out and find another one, all whilst a number of CCs are about to enter battle in regaining lost money etc as a result of 11/9 et al needing good industrial relations advice and the like. Kind of like sends out the wrong message in terms of strength and unity perhaps ?
I am not saying Daddy knows best ( but we all say that to our teenagers !), just some of what circulates may not be the best information on which to formulate a position. Yes communications are important and technically interesting, but volume is no alternative to content. Some stuff is sensitive and probably best not in the public domain, hopefully your reps can be trusted and you have the confidence in what they do with it. Other stuff, just takes time to get out, adds nothing to the debate and costs someone time (their own sapre time , not popular with wife and kids !) to do it. How many do read the Log ? Some obviously don’t and yet it does at least come in an easy portable format and doesn’t crash when to you turn the page ! Just filling up the internet with more of it would not be the answer, so ideas please?
TTFN
Martin A
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Martin, As an aside, I was under the impression the reps get an average of FHR for their BALPA credit......As for the main issues, just tell us when the strike is and we'll be right behind you!
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Martin, Thanks for your reply and the tone it set. Having spent an hour typing my reply I tripped out my power cord without my battery in place, so I am repeating a shorter version(was that a sigh of relief I heard?)
- BALPA short of resources - I knew we ran a tight ship but if it is getting to the point of providing inadequate coverage then we need to review where we spend our time and whether dues should be raised or some areas covered less intensively. Perhaps the new GS review will be an opportune time as any. If put to the members to decide, do you want to lose the following services or increase contribution you might be surprised how many people suport the increase given the facts. an Independant review ? Please don't struggle in silence when this might not be needed.
- CC's do own the results of negotiations(777 bunk rest exception to the rule perhaps)but support from HQ should be firm and forthcoming with advice. They are the hired guns after all. A militant GS puppeteer perhaps.
- GS of BALPA should not have to take a part time job(1.5days/week)with the Comp. Comm. just to get a hearing with politicians.
- MG - I misunderstood your original post referred to him working on flagging out not FTL's. I will re-read it.
- JF picking his succesor;
I was talking about preferring that he choose candidates for gen.members ballot rather than NEC selection alone. I am not opposed to NEC refining the list with him.
- "MG reason for writing lettter stemmed from unanimous CD support at a recent ADC."
Why was the ADC vote so out of touch with the gen.members Election results ? Is it because the ADC could see personally the great job CD was doing, and we couldn't - communication ? How can such a diverging viewpoint exist and doesn't it cause concern that the ADC might not accurately be aware of the gen.members viewpoint on issues ? Either way a lot could be learned from the entire Election past, and to not review it in detail creates further risk in the future. It is worrying that possibly a large number of members threatened leaving in disgust, and utilising the new UK union recognition laws to bring in another or their own union. The reasons behind this must be reviewed to avoid a repeat.
- "About to enter battle without GS sends message of disunity or weakness."
My viewpoint is exactly that of The FT article yesterday that says the Election results have actually sent fear into BA and uncertainty. Confirms our renewed militancy. See article
- Some info sensitive and adds nothing to the debate for its cost.
Agreed, however things could be improved using the new BALPA forum - perhaps there should be some threads used for posting by BALPA reps only for info updates(BA trial at the moment) and also perhaps considering e-mail broadcast lists. Members opt-in to receive email upates(fleet, company, etc). I would be happy to assist in setting this up, as I did offer to set up a forum a year ago. The problem with closed door negotiations and sensitivity is that often the members are unaware of the intervening steps. They see negotiations beginning with PLAN A, they don't see the logical progression until the rep emerges with PLAN D. We would be happier to have seen A-B-C-D and to participate in those steps. time consuming YES. Example, pay deal; Rep presents company with manuscript of deal and says if anything needs changing consultation with members will need to take place, not open for lengthy closed door discussions. Perhaps more militant but it would then put the pressure on the company and not unduly on the rep. I still think temporary professional hired guns are the best solution for pay deals only, not worth budgeting expense here as an extra 10% in pay that wouldn't normally occur, means members could happily afford an extra 10 years of 1% BALPA dues with the first year of extra dosh. Perhaps a one-off charge to that companies members (decided by ballot)who want the Pros hired for that years pay deal.
- I do read the log.
- As for ideas.
In the run up to negotiations no doubt GMM's will be forthcoming. Poor turnouts should not be construed as poor support but more a symptom of a tired workforce unwilling to drive to the airport once again, people downroute or using their few days off for personal issues. They might not be the best way to gauge opinion and probably give BA a false sense of security and first advantage in the negotiations. If people could log on to the Internet when they find the spare time and view a videotaped presentation(digital handhelds can suffice), followed by a secure and accurate voting system(one vote only and verified BALPA member from relevant comapny) then you might gauge support before having to officially ballot. The company would no doubt see the results as well. I know one could say the members are just being lazy, but there are many reasons why someone can't go to a GMM, the end result is what we are after and so we should accomplish this in the most accomodating fashion available. It doesn't have to be an expensive videoconference, just a Realplayer/Windows player download, ajoining forum and a POLL. Just for thought.
I would be happy to continue this via email or postings. If ppruner's here are sick of these lengthy posts or want it to continue, Please tell us either way.
- BALPA short of resources - I knew we ran a tight ship but if it is getting to the point of providing inadequate coverage then we need to review where we spend our time and whether dues should be raised or some areas covered less intensively. Perhaps the new GS review will be an opportune time as any. If put to the members to decide, do you want to lose the following services or increase contribution you might be surprised how many people suport the increase given the facts. an Independant review ? Please don't struggle in silence when this might not be needed.
- CC's do own the results of negotiations(777 bunk rest exception to the rule perhaps)but support from HQ should be firm and forthcoming with advice. They are the hired guns after all. A militant GS puppeteer perhaps.
- GS of BALPA should not have to take a part time job(1.5days/week)with the Comp. Comm. just to get a hearing with politicians.
- MG - I misunderstood your original post referred to him working on flagging out not FTL's. I will re-read it.
- JF picking his succesor;
I was talking about preferring that he choose candidates for gen.members ballot rather than NEC selection alone. I am not opposed to NEC refining the list with him.
- "MG reason for writing lettter stemmed from unanimous CD support at a recent ADC."
Why was the ADC vote so out of touch with the gen.members Election results ? Is it because the ADC could see personally the great job CD was doing, and we couldn't - communication ? How can such a diverging viewpoint exist and doesn't it cause concern that the ADC might not accurately be aware of the gen.members viewpoint on issues ? Either way a lot could be learned from the entire Election past, and to not review it in detail creates further risk in the future. It is worrying that possibly a large number of members threatened leaving in disgust, and utilising the new UK union recognition laws to bring in another or their own union. The reasons behind this must be reviewed to avoid a repeat.
- "About to enter battle without GS sends message of disunity or weakness."
My viewpoint is exactly that of The FT article yesterday that says the Election results have actually sent fear into BA and uncertainty. Confirms our renewed militancy. See article
- Some info sensitive and adds nothing to the debate for its cost.
Agreed, however things could be improved using the new BALPA forum - perhaps there should be some threads used for posting by BALPA reps only for info updates(BA trial at the moment) and also perhaps considering e-mail broadcast lists. Members opt-in to receive email upates(fleet, company, etc). I would be happy to assist in setting this up, as I did offer to set up a forum a year ago. The problem with closed door negotiations and sensitivity is that often the members are unaware of the intervening steps. They see negotiations beginning with PLAN A, they don't see the logical progression until the rep emerges with PLAN D. We would be happier to have seen A-B-C-D and to participate in those steps. time consuming YES. Example, pay deal; Rep presents company with manuscript of deal and says if anything needs changing consultation with members will need to take place, not open for lengthy closed door discussions. Perhaps more militant but it would then put the pressure on the company and not unduly on the rep. I still think temporary professional hired guns are the best solution for pay deals only, not worth budgeting expense here as an extra 10% in pay that wouldn't normally occur, means members could happily afford an extra 10 years of 1% BALPA dues with the first year of extra dosh. Perhaps a one-off charge to that companies members (decided by ballot)who want the Pros hired for that years pay deal.
- I do read the log.
- As for ideas.
In the run up to negotiations no doubt GMM's will be forthcoming. Poor turnouts should not be construed as poor support but more a symptom of a tired workforce unwilling to drive to the airport once again, people downroute or using their few days off for personal issues. They might not be the best way to gauge opinion and probably give BA a false sense of security and first advantage in the negotiations. If people could log on to the Internet when they find the spare time and view a videotaped presentation(digital handhelds can suffice), followed by a secure and accurate voting system(one vote only and verified BALPA member from relevant comapny) then you might gauge support before having to officially ballot. The company would no doubt see the results as well. I know one could say the members are just being lazy, but there are many reasons why someone can't go to a GMM, the end result is what we are after and so we should accomplish this in the most accomodating fashion available. It doesn't have to be an expensive videoconference, just a Realplayer/Windows player download, ajoining forum and a POLL. Just for thought.
I would be happy to continue this via email or postings. If ppruner's here are sick of these lengthy posts or want it to continue, Please tell us either way.
Last edited by airrage; 26th Jun 2002 at 11:30.
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Boeingman,
You’re already on the NEC; so you could relay Airrage's messages yourself!
But perhaps that would be too close to real membership imput for the NEC’s comfort!
Regards,
XFO1-11
You’re already on the NEC; so you could relay Airrage's messages yourself!
But perhaps that would be too close to real membership imput for the NEC’s comfort!
Regards,
XFO1-11
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Of course I listen to all members concerns and not just minority interest groups. airrage has been very elloquent getting his views across and I applaud him for that. However not all of us are that good with the printed word. Debate has, to a certain extent, been stifled by this elloquence.
I suspect airrage was one of the candidates at the last NEC election but failed to get elected this time and I am sure he knows that you get to have 400 words for that manifesto. ( If he wasn't I apologise and hope he will stand next time. )
XFO1-11 don't demonise the NEC now the election is over. It's all you've got at the moment. What we need now is to stand together and get the best representation at all levels for all members.
I suspect airrage was one of the candidates at the last NEC election but failed to get elected this time and I am sure he knows that you get to have 400 words for that manifesto. ( If he wasn't I apologise and hope he will stand next time. )
XFO1-11 don't demonise the NEC now the election is over. It's all you've got at the moment. What we need now is to stand together and get the best representation at all levels for all members.
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Boeingman,
It is good to know that the NEC is now listening. I presume that you pass on the messages at the meetings.
I do not seek to demonise the NEC members however it is apparent by the stance taken by the Chairman that he is out of touch. I would refer you to the election result for confirmation.
We all hope for better representation in the future from the NEC.
Regards,
XFO1-11
It is good to know that the NEC is now listening. I presume that you pass on the messages at the meetings.
I do not seek to demonise the NEC members however it is apparent by the stance taken by the Chairman that he is out of touch. I would refer you to the election result for confirmation.
We all hope for better representation in the future from the NEC.
Regards,
XFO1-11
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All this talk of Big Airways matters (777 bunks,where's my b****y 20% pay rise, strike action, etc), rather than just BALPA matters , i.e the whole membership (of which BA are in a minority as we all know) is perhaps becoming just a bit selfish don't you think.
John getting elected is more for all of us rather than just one company's membership , and while he has only ever been in BA i'm quite sure he's hardly going to be just fighting for 777 bunks, it's a bigger issue than that.
whilst i understand the concerns of BA's members they are certainly going about fuelling the fire of "this is just an attempt of BA to hijack the union" in the right way, my view as a BA outsider is that they are only concerned about their own company. it is indeed a certainty that improvements in their t&c will help the rest of us but we need to act more as a union rather than a lose association of pilots, only by being all together on matters can we really get the management by the short and curlies. this will become especially true in roughly 12 months time when the pilot shortage really begins to bite- that is exactly when we need a strong union to be behind us. the problem with CD was he would concede too easily. we need a union/CC to galvanise all the members.
if we act as a cross-company group in the case of ballots for improvements it will have a far greater impact. whilst if airline X want a pay rise it would be rather silly for the crew of Y to also go out on strike, in the case of FTL improvements it affects every single one of us.
as an aside i wonder what BA think about John having two jobs- i'm willing to bet they hate the fact that the GS is one of their pilots! could be interesting
if anyone wants to know to save you asking of course i voted for John.
John getting elected is more for all of us rather than just one company's membership , and while he has only ever been in BA i'm quite sure he's hardly going to be just fighting for 777 bunks, it's a bigger issue than that.
whilst i understand the concerns of BA's members they are certainly going about fuelling the fire of "this is just an attempt of BA to hijack the union" in the right way, my view as a BA outsider is that they are only concerned about their own company. it is indeed a certainty that improvements in their t&c will help the rest of us but we need to act more as a union rather than a lose association of pilots, only by being all together on matters can we really get the management by the short and curlies. this will become especially true in roughly 12 months time when the pilot shortage really begins to bite- that is exactly when we need a strong union to be behind us. the problem with CD was he would concede too easily. we need a union/CC to galvanise all the members.
if we act as a cross-company group in the case of ballots for improvements it will have a far greater impact. whilst if airline X want a pay rise it would be rather silly for the crew of Y to also go out on strike, in the case of FTL improvements it affects every single one of us.
as an aside i wonder what BA think about John having two jobs- i'm willing to bet they hate the fact that the GS is one of their pilots! could be interesting
if anyone wants to know to save you asking of course i voted for John.
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Rumour has it that Airrage is a Manchester based BA pilot? Is that correct?
I have no idea whether members want to pay more or not, I suspect most would want someone else to pay more but not themselves! Why not do a poll on it, it would answer your question right away and save your CCs the time and cost.
As to never having stood for a BLAP post, why not ? you seem to have lots of ideas, so why not come along and see what it is really like ? It may not be at all as it seems from the distant foothills off the Pennines, or is it the Scottish Lowland, some say your accent hails from north of Hadrians Wall.
You will probably find that there is lots of talk of militancy, but the reality is most of us have mortgages to pay etc and the cost of a strike is not to be undertaken lightly. Juts how many do you think would have supported a strike over 777 bunks given the circumstances involved? Probably fewer than supported the Cabin Crew strike one thinks. By the way remember, that the agreement over the bunks was signed by the BA CC Chairman, with CD merely counter signing. Why ? because a compromise was reached, just as most things are a compromise. If you get on a 777 that needs a bunk because it is flying far enough to need both a 3 man crew and a bunk (the two are not connected) I understand that it is there. The head office might be the hired guns, but has to be the CC that do the biz so to speak. Head Office can only advise and certainly should not override CC, to do otherwise seems just like shouting threats and when the going gets tough getting your big brother in, which seems nice until you realise you don’t like what he is doing anyway!, Hence the answer is really only the CC, and head Office advice only.
I understand that the part time job for the Competition Commission was agreed as part of personal development or similar. It certainly was the right thing to do, or should BA only hire in Captains already qualified and save the time on staff training we put into making first officers into commanders? Any decent employer does this kind of thing, so why should BALP not set a good example of how we would like to treated to our own employees, which is what the Gen Sec is. Having an online connection politically, if that is what it gave us is a lot more effective. Who do you listen to, the guy who turns up once, knows nothing about how things work and makes an accidental pratt of themselves , or someone you have had a good working relationship with and who appears to know what they are talking about because you have seen them in action over a period? ( I have witnessed this done by an airline manger at an external meeting, it will take him some time to be accepted as a valid contributor I think !)
Please tell me and others reading this, exactly what skills and experience JF has had in either selecting or employing staff who will be operating at this level? Am I correct in thinking that JF is only a recent joiner to the NEC, has no management training, or experience and is basically a bog standard airline captain ? Has he had any experience in dealing with MDs of large companies, senior government officials, ministers or the press? These are all skills he will need and need quickly. As an airline pilot, will he be familiar with employment and industrial legislation so as to be able to advise, or be present and carry through on behalf of a CC an argument with an airline MD who wants specifically to deal with the BALPA senior official ? Will he be able to discharge he responsibilities of Gen Sec from either the 747-400 flight deck or France, where he lives? These are after all the tasks of a Gen Sec who as I state again works as directed by the NEC, who are the controlling body of the Association and not the other way round !!!!
Could be difficult I think, but we must wait and see.
The ADC result reflected what people working with CD saw in him. Some of it in areas that newcomers to the running of the organisation are maybe not aware of. Others who had seen Head Office support enable them to achieve an acceptable outcome for their circumstance. Of course not everyone was happy with it, the private members motion that was basically anti CD, put forward by Ian Saunders of Manchester, got a fair hearing , but was even to my untrained ears pretty poorly argued and smacked of angry young man lashing out at anyone for reasons I am sure that if he reads this he could explain, because I lost the plot !
As those who have spent time in the “hallowed halls” of New Road know, some of what goes on is pretty low profile and influential, like visits to the House of Lords, PACTS, meetings with heads of industry etc. Some has to be low key, because that is what the participants want ,it does not make them any less effective and broadcasting some of the things that go on would be downright counterproductive. So not all of what is going on is spread around, or not in detail.
The members elect the organisation leaders, the NEC and they answer to you, the members. The NEC directs its staff (including the Gen Sec). If you don’t trust them they come up for re-election, so stand for election yourself. You cannot have an elected body and then by means of anonymous and untraceable communications denigrate them and expect anyone else to want to do it as their replacement .It becomes almost like trials by peoples courts in Russia of the 30’s. based on rumour and half truths with those fomenting staying well, away from any risk themselves.
What would be a disaster is, if due to some grievance that we know not of, the association is run by remote control by those who would wish it run in their chosen manner, but without the desire to take the responsibility for the actions that are taken and the results thereof. It is a risk of the availability of powerful communications that are available today, that is they can get used in manner which effectively seems to become trial by the tabloid press, sometimes, barely any better informed and which is unbecoming the profession.
So if you don’t like what the NEC your elected reps are doing, put yourself up for it. For those who don’t want to do this, just think how hard it would be to hold to account persons who will not put their names to the information they spread or who wish to wiled this power without responsibility.
Bye for now
Martin Alder chairman BALPA Tech (if you don’t read the Tech Log !)
Volunteer, not paid elected by other study group chairman, but this is all my own view not anyones elses, as I said What You See Is What You Get
P.S Do get some FHR, but it is not straightforward, you can lose it all again. Lats non BALPA time off roster, but to do a BALPA job lost two days FHR and allowances to get off roster to go to essential CAA meeting, net loss best not told to her indoors !, 9 hours credit out of my hard won bank, about 7 hours FHR and a night stop in Madrid. Dare not think how much that came to !
I have no idea whether members want to pay more or not, I suspect most would want someone else to pay more but not themselves! Why not do a poll on it, it would answer your question right away and save your CCs the time and cost.
As to never having stood for a BLAP post, why not ? you seem to have lots of ideas, so why not come along and see what it is really like ? It may not be at all as it seems from the distant foothills off the Pennines, or is it the Scottish Lowland, some say your accent hails from north of Hadrians Wall.
You will probably find that there is lots of talk of militancy, but the reality is most of us have mortgages to pay etc and the cost of a strike is not to be undertaken lightly. Juts how many do you think would have supported a strike over 777 bunks given the circumstances involved? Probably fewer than supported the Cabin Crew strike one thinks. By the way remember, that the agreement over the bunks was signed by the BA CC Chairman, with CD merely counter signing. Why ? because a compromise was reached, just as most things are a compromise. If you get on a 777 that needs a bunk because it is flying far enough to need both a 3 man crew and a bunk (the two are not connected) I understand that it is there. The head office might be the hired guns, but has to be the CC that do the biz so to speak. Head Office can only advise and certainly should not override CC, to do otherwise seems just like shouting threats and when the going gets tough getting your big brother in, which seems nice until you realise you don’t like what he is doing anyway!, Hence the answer is really only the CC, and head Office advice only.
I understand that the part time job for the Competition Commission was agreed as part of personal development or similar. It certainly was the right thing to do, or should BA only hire in Captains already qualified and save the time on staff training we put into making first officers into commanders? Any decent employer does this kind of thing, so why should BALP not set a good example of how we would like to treated to our own employees, which is what the Gen Sec is. Having an online connection politically, if that is what it gave us is a lot more effective. Who do you listen to, the guy who turns up once, knows nothing about how things work and makes an accidental pratt of themselves , or someone you have had a good working relationship with and who appears to know what they are talking about because you have seen them in action over a period? ( I have witnessed this done by an airline manger at an external meeting, it will take him some time to be accepted as a valid contributor I think !)
Please tell me and others reading this, exactly what skills and experience JF has had in either selecting or employing staff who will be operating at this level? Am I correct in thinking that JF is only a recent joiner to the NEC, has no management training, or experience and is basically a bog standard airline captain ? Has he had any experience in dealing with MDs of large companies, senior government officials, ministers or the press? These are all skills he will need and need quickly. As an airline pilot, will he be familiar with employment and industrial legislation so as to be able to advise, or be present and carry through on behalf of a CC an argument with an airline MD who wants specifically to deal with the BALPA senior official ? Will he be able to discharge he responsibilities of Gen Sec from either the 747-400 flight deck or France, where he lives? These are after all the tasks of a Gen Sec who as I state again works as directed by the NEC, who are the controlling body of the Association and not the other way round !!!!
Could be difficult I think, but we must wait and see.
The ADC result reflected what people working with CD saw in him. Some of it in areas that newcomers to the running of the organisation are maybe not aware of. Others who had seen Head Office support enable them to achieve an acceptable outcome for their circumstance. Of course not everyone was happy with it, the private members motion that was basically anti CD, put forward by Ian Saunders of Manchester, got a fair hearing , but was even to my untrained ears pretty poorly argued and smacked of angry young man lashing out at anyone for reasons I am sure that if he reads this he could explain, because I lost the plot !
As those who have spent time in the “hallowed halls” of New Road know, some of what goes on is pretty low profile and influential, like visits to the House of Lords, PACTS, meetings with heads of industry etc. Some has to be low key, because that is what the participants want ,it does not make them any less effective and broadcasting some of the things that go on would be downright counterproductive. So not all of what is going on is spread around, or not in detail.
The members elect the organisation leaders, the NEC and they answer to you, the members. The NEC directs its staff (including the Gen Sec). If you don’t trust them they come up for re-election, so stand for election yourself. You cannot have an elected body and then by means of anonymous and untraceable communications denigrate them and expect anyone else to want to do it as their replacement .It becomes almost like trials by peoples courts in Russia of the 30’s. based on rumour and half truths with those fomenting staying well, away from any risk themselves.
What would be a disaster is, if due to some grievance that we know not of, the association is run by remote control by those who would wish it run in their chosen manner, but without the desire to take the responsibility for the actions that are taken and the results thereof. It is a risk of the availability of powerful communications that are available today, that is they can get used in manner which effectively seems to become trial by the tabloid press, sometimes, barely any better informed and which is unbecoming the profession.
So if you don’t like what the NEC your elected reps are doing, put yourself up for it. For those who don’t want to do this, just think how hard it would be to hold to account persons who will not put their names to the information they spread or who wish to wiled this power without responsibility.
Bye for now
Martin Alder chairman BALPA Tech (if you don’t read the Tech Log !)
Volunteer, not paid elected by other study group chairman, but this is all my own view not anyones elses, as I said What You See Is What You Get
P.S Do get some FHR, but it is not straightforward, you can lose it all again. Lats non BALPA time off roster, but to do a BALPA job lost two days FHR and allowances to get off roster to go to essential CAA meeting, net loss best not told to her indoors !, 9 hours credit out of my hard won bank, about 7 hours FHR and a night stop in Madrid. Dare not think how much that came to !
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I can confirm that aside from my blood & genes which comes from Liverpool, I have never resided in the North. I do appreciate a Northern outlook on life perhaps and my Grandfather and Uncles spent many years in the Dockers unions(not as GS). So please recall the letter bombs enroute to that poor northern bloke, you got the wrong man. My name would mean nothing to most people here so you can eliminate any of the major players.
Please don't lecture me for daring to mention the B777 bunks in parenthesis as a small aside to Martin A saying that the CC's make all the decisions(as proof that this has varying degrees of truth). I won't go into the details here because it is a BA issue only and those who do know the details admit freely that the CC's did not get what they wanted because CD felt it necessary to make a compromise to move the issue forward. That resulted in all but 2 of the LH CC resigning (again don't want to be drawn into lengthy discussion about how many withdrew resignation, etc.) It was a tiny but truthful fragment to a lengthy post and for those interested the final stage bunks agreed have still not even begun production(18months to complete, whilst the 777 has been in BA now 6years)vindicating the opinions of the LH CC.
invinoveritas, agree wholeheartedly that we should be acting as the sole suppliers of pilots in the UK and co-ordinating our actions and focus on the group as a whole. If not then what the heck did we spend so much time increasing our membership. Of course one cannot use the word of that famous boardgame MonoPoly in this manner but heck they get away with OPEC (Only Pilots in the EC ? why not). Apologies if I often call on BA issues as examples to highlight my opinions but that is the firm I work for(presently)and could not to begin to discuss other outfits. Does not mean I don't support pilots rights regardless of uniform.
Both of you comment as if JF is taking the position of GS and are ignoring his manifesto. As for being qualified to find an appropriate candidate/s I am of the opinion that he appoint a professional head-hunting organisation;
1. alleviate suspicions from non-BA BALPA members.
2. they have 1000's of the best candidates in this country on their books ready to roll tomorrow and the headhunters are the most experienced of any people to appoint suitable people. Does any here think someone in our org better qualified than that.
3. a lot of the cost for this service absorbed by the candidate.
I appreciate that many people have mortgages etc and militancy wanes quickly. That is why I started 2threads(1 on the BA Pprune section 2months ago and 1 on the New BALPA Forum - because its more relevant to BA right now) that deals with the issue "Preparing for a strike". On the BALPA Forum thread I discussed ways and costs of raising equity from ones home to finance any missed paychecks during a strike. Without repeating the details here; the first option was a mortgage holiday agreed with ones manager, followed by a Home Improvement Loan which came to an additiional £60/month for every £10,000 borrowed. Theres no point in complaining that everyone doesn't want to risk strike when most people haven't been told how to financially prepare for one so that their families don't miss a bean. Perhaps the BALPA financial services could draw up a more detailed lengthy "Financial Crisis Plan"or "How to survive 6months without a paycheck"(don't have to call it strike preparation if fear of litigation)and print it in that LOG, that I do read. You might even find your readership #'s increase Martin. Think Pro-Active. How will BA feel if they know ahead of any strike that all pilots have secured 6months worth of strike money. Might tighten their sphincters a little wouldn't you agree ? Please feel free to use this idea Martin, can I look forward to the Aug/Sept issue......all I ask is that you sideline airrage as a co-contributor for the article. Quiz: what lasts longer.........a BA pilot on strike with a £15,000 Home Improvement Loan or BA with a £6 billion loan and pilots on strike.
I have discussed the merits of AESOP share options in lieu of cash if BA claim they can't survive the increase in cashflow a pay rise would cause. I devised a tidy way of turning £300 take home pay today into £1000 tax free shares 2years down the road. That could be another article for the LOG. Sorry getting sidetraked.
Martin, I have never criticised the NEC, I think you must be addressing this to me when you mis-identified me as that man Adrian building a wall(joke pleae). I have stated the many reasons why I believed a GS Election was necessary, the way it was handled and do not feel it necessary to repeat them here again. I have never spoke a disparaging word against any of the reps, CC or NEC. In fact I only have praise for their efforts.
I would just like to say that I have noticed the defensive reaction shown by reps(NEC or otherwise) to the recent upsurge in activisim. I think we as members are perhaps just as guilty in not communicating upwards to reps as we accuse them for not communicating with us. I know being a rep must be a thankless job and you don't get many stray e-mails just to say, hey wanted to say thanks and keep up the great work. How many trips downroute do you get not discussing BALPA issues? Doesn't mean the majority of us don't realise or appreciate the work done. It's a bit like accepting a flying managers job except you get the same amount of crap yet none of the perks.
Oh well, heres to the new OPEC ! (Only Pilots in the EC)
Please don't lecture me for daring to mention the B777 bunks in parenthesis as a small aside to Martin A saying that the CC's make all the decisions(as proof that this has varying degrees of truth). I won't go into the details here because it is a BA issue only and those who do know the details admit freely that the CC's did not get what they wanted because CD felt it necessary to make a compromise to move the issue forward. That resulted in all but 2 of the LH CC resigning (again don't want to be drawn into lengthy discussion about how many withdrew resignation, etc.) It was a tiny but truthful fragment to a lengthy post and for those interested the final stage bunks agreed have still not even begun production(18months to complete, whilst the 777 has been in BA now 6years)vindicating the opinions of the LH CC.
invinoveritas, agree wholeheartedly that we should be acting as the sole suppliers of pilots in the UK and co-ordinating our actions and focus on the group as a whole. If not then what the heck did we spend so much time increasing our membership. Of course one cannot use the word of that famous boardgame MonoPoly in this manner but heck they get away with OPEC (Only Pilots in the EC ? why not). Apologies if I often call on BA issues as examples to highlight my opinions but that is the firm I work for(presently)and could not to begin to discuss other outfits. Does not mean I don't support pilots rights regardless of uniform.
Both of you comment as if JF is taking the position of GS and are ignoring his manifesto. As for being qualified to find an appropriate candidate/s I am of the opinion that he appoint a professional head-hunting organisation;
1. alleviate suspicions from non-BA BALPA members.
2. they have 1000's of the best candidates in this country on their books ready to roll tomorrow and the headhunters are the most experienced of any people to appoint suitable people. Does any here think someone in our org better qualified than that.
3. a lot of the cost for this service absorbed by the candidate.
I appreciate that many people have mortgages etc and militancy wanes quickly. That is why I started 2threads(1 on the BA Pprune section 2months ago and 1 on the New BALPA Forum - because its more relevant to BA right now) that deals with the issue "Preparing for a strike". On the BALPA Forum thread I discussed ways and costs of raising equity from ones home to finance any missed paychecks during a strike. Without repeating the details here; the first option was a mortgage holiday agreed with ones manager, followed by a Home Improvement Loan which came to an additiional £60/month for every £10,000 borrowed. Theres no point in complaining that everyone doesn't want to risk strike when most people haven't been told how to financially prepare for one so that their families don't miss a bean. Perhaps the BALPA financial services could draw up a more detailed lengthy "Financial Crisis Plan"or "How to survive 6months without a paycheck"(don't have to call it strike preparation if fear of litigation)and print it in that LOG, that I do read. You might even find your readership #'s increase Martin. Think Pro-Active. How will BA feel if they know ahead of any strike that all pilots have secured 6months worth of strike money. Might tighten their sphincters a little wouldn't you agree ? Please feel free to use this idea Martin, can I look forward to the Aug/Sept issue......all I ask is that you sideline airrage as a co-contributor for the article. Quiz: what lasts longer.........a BA pilot on strike with a £15,000 Home Improvement Loan or BA with a £6 billion loan and pilots on strike.
I have discussed the merits of AESOP share options in lieu of cash if BA claim they can't survive the increase in cashflow a pay rise would cause. I devised a tidy way of turning £300 take home pay today into £1000 tax free shares 2years down the road. That could be another article for the LOG. Sorry getting sidetraked.
Martin, I have never criticised the NEC, I think you must be addressing this to me when you mis-identified me as that man Adrian building a wall(joke pleae). I have stated the many reasons why I believed a GS Election was necessary, the way it was handled and do not feel it necessary to repeat them here again. I have never spoke a disparaging word against any of the reps, CC or NEC. In fact I only have praise for their efforts.
I would just like to say that I have noticed the defensive reaction shown by reps(NEC or otherwise) to the recent upsurge in activisim. I think we as members are perhaps just as guilty in not communicating upwards to reps as we accuse them for not communicating with us. I know being a rep must be a thankless job and you don't get many stray e-mails just to say, hey wanted to say thanks and keep up the great work. How many trips downroute do you get not discussing BALPA issues? Doesn't mean the majority of us don't realise or appreciate the work done. It's a bit like accepting a flying managers job except you get the same amount of crap yet none of the perks.
Oh well, heres to the new OPEC ! (Only Pilots in the EC)