john frohnsdorff elected BALPA General Secretary
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: the Tearooms of Mars
Posts: 206
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I shouldn’t start knocking the electoral system if I were you. Everyone had the opportunity to vote, if you didn’t then there should be no complaints at the outcome. Mr Frohnsdorf has been elected by a clear majority of those who could be bothered to vote. The problem is not the fact that such a small proportion voted for Mr F, but that such a small proportion of UK pilots are interested in the effective and democratic conduct of their professional association.
Good Luck and congratulations John, I hope this marks a turning point in all of our fortunes.
Good Luck and congratulations John, I hope this marks a turning point in all of our fortunes.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dear All,
Many thanks for your support! I will not let you down!
I have asked for a meeting with all the staff at New Road on Friday to discuss the transition. I will be GS from 2nd July but intend to start the process now to find the best permanent GS. My team and I will be consulting with the NEC to progress this issue in a positive and consultative manner. It is my intention to reflect the desires of all our members regardless of which company they happen to work for. I want to leave BALPA, in my retirement, knowing that it is in good hands and will not repeat the mistakes of old.
Good communication has been a vital component in this election and I don’t think I would have been able to express my points adequately without PPruNe. Thank you Danny Fyne; and all the PPruNe people!
Regards,
John
Many thanks for your support! I will not let you down!
I have asked for a meeting with all the staff at New Road on Friday to discuss the transition. I will be GS from 2nd July but intend to start the process now to find the best permanent GS. My team and I will be consulting with the NEC to progress this issue in a positive and consultative manner. It is my intention to reflect the desires of all our members regardless of which company they happen to work for. I want to leave BALPA, in my retirement, knowing that it is in good hands and will not repeat the mistakes of old.
Good communication has been a vital component in this election and I don’t think I would have been able to express my points adequately without PPruNe. Thank you Danny Fyne; and all the PPruNe people!
Regards,
John
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: London
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Congratulations John F.
Willoman's quips hold some truth but are of little consequence as you have secured the support of 67% of those who care about our future.
Perhaps we can turn things around and make BALPA a union to be respected once again.
Willoman's quips hold some truth but are of little consequence as you have secured the support of 67% of those who care about our future.
Perhaps we can turn things around and make BALPA a union to be respected once again.
Last edited by leander; 18th Jun 2002 at 13:08.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Twilight Zone
Age: 57
Posts: 89
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<<Don't get carried away gentlemen !
7750 ballot papers, only 56.4 % returned. The vote for JF represents 37.8 % of the ballot papers issued.
Our employers will be ecstatic - they will smell a disinterested, headless, rudderless set of pilots !>>
Willowman
I think that you really could not be further from the truth in this instance.
Voter apathy with low percentage turn outs have ALWAYS been the case in most elections.
I believe this to be especially true when it comes to the multitude of papers we normally get shoved through our letterbox concerning manifestos, votes, committees, elections blah blah blah, from BALPA.
56 % is a great return rate.
67% vote for a candidate is EVEN BETTER.
The 44% that did not vote, it has to be presumed, would not be bothered who ever won.
I think that this signals EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of what Willowman has stated.
Two thirds of the membership that bothered to vote, were not happy with the performance and leadership of CD.
And now JF will find a replacement to the members liking and not to the liking of MG.
This is not just about having a Union that is prepared to stand up and start to correct the continual decline of our conditions of service, that has been occurring for over a decade now. Hugmonster reminds us, its not just about remuneration...
<<For example, flagging-out, employment of non-EU crews, levelling the JAA playing field, over-liberalisation of FTLs etc.? >>
No more cosy deals under the table, that the members cant see hey...
7750 ballot papers, only 56.4 % returned. The vote for JF represents 37.8 % of the ballot papers issued.
Our employers will be ecstatic - they will smell a disinterested, headless, rudderless set of pilots !>>
Willowman
I think that you really could not be further from the truth in this instance.
Voter apathy with low percentage turn outs have ALWAYS been the case in most elections.
I believe this to be especially true when it comes to the multitude of papers we normally get shoved through our letterbox concerning manifestos, votes, committees, elections blah blah blah, from BALPA.
56 % is a great return rate.
67% vote for a candidate is EVEN BETTER.
The 44% that did not vote, it has to be presumed, would not be bothered who ever won.
I think that this signals EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of what Willowman has stated.
Two thirds of the membership that bothered to vote, were not happy with the performance and leadership of CD.
And now JF will find a replacement to the members liking and not to the liking of MG.
This is not just about having a Union that is prepared to stand up and start to correct the continual decline of our conditions of service, that has been occurring for over a decade now. Hugmonster reminds us, its not just about remuneration...
<<For example, flagging-out, employment of non-EU crews, levelling the JAA playing field, over-liberalisation of FTLs etc.? >>
No more cosy deals under the table, that the members cant see hey...
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 107
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
John F,
I have been against the way you have conducted yourself and the effect that this has had on the public profile of the association - however I congratulate you on your victory which even I have to admit is clear. You have three months to convince me that this is NOT a BA conspiracy simply to regain control of the association to the detriment of the other airline members. If you don't then I look forward to a 1% pay rise, at BALPA's expense. Perhaps you could name the people you have in mind to take on the role of General Secretary after your resignation - there is no time like the present !
I wish you luck !
I have been against the way you have conducted yourself and the effect that this has had on the public profile of the association - however I congratulate you on your victory which even I have to admit is clear. You have three months to convince me that this is NOT a BA conspiracy simply to regain control of the association to the detriment of the other airline members. If you don't then I look forward to a 1% pay rise, at BALPA's expense. Perhaps you could name the people you have in mind to take on the role of General Secretary after your resignation - there is no time like the present !
I wish you luck !
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: The Deep South (Sussex)
Posts: 783
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Clearly a democratic result and an interesting democratic result at that. The facility for communication that Pprune provided in this election must be a first in union elections.
Methinks the beneficial effect of Pprune may well last longer in the history of the trades union movement than the result itself.
Congratulations John.
Methinks the beneficial effect of Pprune may well last longer in the history of the trades union movement than the result itself.
Congratulations John.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Seoul
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Congratulations John
John,
I must say thanks and congratulations to you. You have the support of the members to find a suitable GS and I now feel excited that we can look forward to a stronger union which will protect the pilots. We can turn our backs on the last ten years of being sold cheap and address the many issues which will improve the situation for all UK pilots.
Knowing you personally, I can vouch that you genuinely do have all our best interests at heart, and I would like to dispell any fears that those outside of Big Airways may have.
Glad you had a medium such as PPRuNe to increase your exposure.
Well done and good luck.
Mini mums
I must say thanks and congratulations to you. You have the support of the members to find a suitable GS and I now feel excited that we can look forward to a stronger union which will protect the pilots. We can turn our backs on the last ten years of being sold cheap and address the many issues which will improve the situation for all UK pilots.
Knowing you personally, I can vouch that you genuinely do have all our best interests at heart, and I would like to dispell any fears that those outside of Big Airways may have.
Glad you had a medium such as PPRuNe to increase your exposure.
Well done and good luck.
Mini mums
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Congrats JF
More exciting result than 3-0 in the footie !
Fuzzy112 - it's not any sort of BA conspiracy to regain control of BALPA for BA members. It's to regain control of BALPA for every single member, whoever they work for. Glad to see you concede that this is a very strong vote for JF, give him a chance and judge him (or new GS) on the results.
More exciting result than 3-0 in the footie !
Fuzzy112 - it's not any sort of BA conspiracy to regain control of BALPA for BA members. It's to regain control of BALPA for every single member, whoever they work for. Glad to see you concede that this is a very strong vote for JF, give him a chance and judge him (or new GS) on the results.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: St Kitts
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It matters not a jot whether you are in Union or not, nor does it matter whether your company recognises one. Life as a pilot is no better or worse for being in or out, except in some usually minor and transient ways.
Market forces always eventually prevail - they sometimes take a little longer to do so when there is a Union involved, but the "reality arrival" is usually somewhat firmer to balance that.
Market forces always eventually prevail - they sometimes take a little longer to do so when there is a Union involved, but the "reality arrival" is usually somewhat firmer to balance that.
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: UK
Posts: 192
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
John F
Congratulations on your election. I was not one of your supporters, but I am happy to respect the democratic result. I am a little concerned by the following post:
BOAC
While the euphoria runs wild, may I re-assure ALL members that BALPA will be in good hands with the deputy, Graham Fowler, looking after 'the shop' while the 'new boss' goes out looking for new stock. I understand a few of the staff at New Road are quite happy with the result too.
I would not accept that popularity with the staff is a realistic criteria for choosing the head of an organisation, but that is not my main point. You made the following statement on another thread:
John Frohnsdorff
I would not be happy myself if BALPA where to be left rudderless; this will not happen. We do have qualified people that will be interested in applying for the GS position; additionally it is the intent to advertise the position to make sure we get the best person for the job. I will fill the position in the interim; please remember I have extensive NEC experience.
Do you intend to fill the position as you stated, or is Graham Fowler going to do so? Presumably, Graham has a job of his own to do.
And while I have the floor, (and not addressed to JF):
crusin level
Taking your word for the fact that JF has been elected:
Do we now have a vote of confidence/re-election for all those reps that backed CD? Most of their names can be found on CD's website
Is this really your interpretation of democracy, crusin level? Of course, it has been tried before, but the Nazi party in Germany and the Communist party in Russia did not stand the test of time. I believe that Zimbabwe still practices this type of philosophy.
Congratulations on your election. I was not one of your supporters, but I am happy to respect the democratic result. I am a little concerned by the following post:
BOAC
While the euphoria runs wild, may I re-assure ALL members that BALPA will be in good hands with the deputy, Graham Fowler, looking after 'the shop' while the 'new boss' goes out looking for new stock. I understand a few of the staff at New Road are quite happy with the result too.
I would not accept that popularity with the staff is a realistic criteria for choosing the head of an organisation, but that is not my main point. You made the following statement on another thread:
John Frohnsdorff
I would not be happy myself if BALPA where to be left rudderless; this will not happen. We do have qualified people that will be interested in applying for the GS position; additionally it is the intent to advertise the position to make sure we get the best person for the job. I will fill the position in the interim; please remember I have extensive NEC experience.
Do you intend to fill the position as you stated, or is Graham Fowler going to do so? Presumably, Graham has a job of his own to do.
And while I have the floor, (and not addressed to JF):
crusin level
Taking your word for the fact that JF has been elected:
Do we now have a vote of confidence/re-election for all those reps that backed CD? Most of their names can be found on CD's website
Is this really your interpretation of democracy, crusin level? Of course, it has been tried before, but the Nazi party in Germany and the Communist party in Russia did not stand the test of time. I believe that Zimbabwe still practices this type of philosophy.
Last edited by pom; 19th Jun 2002 at 15:33.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pom -
<I would not accept that popularity with the staff is a realistic criteria for choosing the head of an organisation>
I quite agree. I'll leave JF to answer your main point. Let's agree perhaps that a 2-1 vote 'for' might be a better criterion?
(PS I'm fully with you on the concept of democracy)
<I would not accept that popularity with the staff is a realistic criteria for choosing the head of an organisation>
I quite agree. I'll leave JF to answer your main point. Let's agree perhaps that a 2-1 vote 'for' might be a better criterion?
(PS I'm fully with you on the concept of democracy)
Last edited by BOAC; 19th Jun 2002 at 16:30.
Join Date: Oct 1998
Location: Mount Mckinly
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What about the bloke who sent us all those 2 letters at the start of the whole episode, telling us how great he thought Dark Chris was, wasting thousands of pounds of our money in the process? (Can't remember his name, or his job title, I think he's a First Officer with the White Hatters)...will he now be shown the door as well? (Here's hoping)
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: uk
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Perhaps the entertainment expenses will now be addressed. I am told (Third hand) that meal expenses for four often reached £1000. best wine etc. Hopefully BALPA is no longer a cash cow for its management.
Add one to the count for members retained by te democratic process.
Add one to the count for members retained by te democratic process.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: London, England
Posts: 411
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well Done JF.
MG save yourself some embarassment later, resign NOW, you won't be re-elected after a result like this. Although I should thank MG for his part in getting JF elected.
Democracy alive and well........thanks in part to the Internet. I have said it before, those in positions of power who fail to harness the Internet for the powerful Communication tool that it is, do so at their own peril. Power to the People.
Now lets remember that the Internet can be used just as affectively in Industrial disputes. Look out BA.......it's going to be a hot summer.
MG save yourself some embarassment later, resign NOW, you won't be re-elected after a result like this. Although I should thank MG for his part in getting JF elected.
Democracy alive and well........thanks in part to the Internet. I have said it before, those in positions of power who fail to harness the Internet for the powerful Communication tool that it is, do so at their own peril. Power to the People.
Now lets remember that the Internet can be used just as affectively in Industrial disputes. Look out BA.......it's going to be a hot summer.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
pom,
I will fulfill my campaign promises. I do not legitimately take office until 2nd July.
We are already receiving encouraging contact from qualified individuals for the position. It would not be appropriate to say more on this subject until more evaluation is done.
Regards,
John
I will fulfill my campaign promises. I do not legitimately take office until 2nd July.
We are already receiving encouraging contact from qualified individuals for the position. It would not be appropriate to say more on this subject until more evaluation is done.
Regards,
John
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Personally I would be more than happy if we could borrow one of those guys who manages to do the deals for the boys at United,Delta,American,etc,.............even if only for a week!
I didn't hear from over the pond that "3% is a very good deal and as your union we recomend that you accept it...!"
WOOF,WOOF
I didn't hear from over the pond that "3% is a very good deal and as your union we recomend that you accept it...!"
WOOF,WOOF
Join Date: Jul 1999
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What does all this mean? and why are all you BA guys so excited?
The silent majority of BALPA (Yes, the non BA guys) are still nonplussed and wondering what is going on. Would someone please take the time to explain to us in terms of non-BA issues.
The election result reflects the fact that most of us didn't vote because we weren't aware of the issues. If you don't play this right, we might all get organised and outvote you in the forthcoming election.
I'm not anti-BA (because the pay and conditions of us charter pilots largely reflects what you are paid, except less) but I would like to know what is going on.
The silent majority of BALPA (Yes, the non BA guys) are still nonplussed and wondering what is going on. Would someone please take the time to explain to us in terms of non-BA issues.
The election result reflects the fact that most of us didn't vote because we weren't aware of the issues. If you don't play this right, we might all get organised and outvote you in the forthcoming election.
I'm not anti-BA (because the pay and conditions of us charter pilots largely reflects what you are paid, except less) but I would like to know what is going on.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
max sectors
this isn't a BA issue it's a BALPA issue.
I assume that you have'nt been monitoring the events leading upto this election very closely.
Chris Darke has been in post for 10 years,during which time the terms and conditions of ALL proffessional pilots in the UK have eroded.I include the low cost operators in this equation,for although their pay seems fairly good,I would seriously question their overall quality of life,particularly medium/long term.
There are other serious issues which effect us all,such as flagging out etc.
Of course BA has a significant number of members in BALPA and what happens in BA does,I think,effect the community as a whole.
That said,the BA membership is in an overall minority within BALPA.That underlines just how important every one of the contributing company councils actually is.
JF happens to be a BA pilot.I am sure,however,just like this BA pilot,that his interests and concerns are toward the whole community.That is ,after all,what BALPA is all about.
jumbodriver
this isn't a BA issue it's a BALPA issue.
I assume that you have'nt been monitoring the events leading upto this election very closely.
Chris Darke has been in post for 10 years,during which time the terms and conditions of ALL proffessional pilots in the UK have eroded.I include the low cost operators in this equation,for although their pay seems fairly good,I would seriously question their overall quality of life,particularly medium/long term.
There are other serious issues which effect us all,such as flagging out etc.
Of course BA has a significant number of members in BALPA and what happens in BA does,I think,effect the community as a whole.
That said,the BA membership is in an overall minority within BALPA.That underlines just how important every one of the contributing company councils actually is.
JF happens to be a BA pilot.I am sure,however,just like this BA pilot,that his interests and concerns are toward the whole community.That is ,after all,what BALPA is all about.
jumbodriver