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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

Old 28th Mar 2015, 10:09
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But the recorded breathing is explainable, if he was wearing his headset. Which I also don't know why psychologically it would make sense to wear it at this point, but who knows
Because in many Operators, at least most I know, you wear them from prior start until after shutdown?
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Old 28th Mar 2015, 10:19
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Because you have to put it on before the other crew member leaves and the headset is often not worn except for take off and landing. I fly the A320 by the way!
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Old 28th Mar 2015, 10:20
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I'm referring more to the fact that certain things may jump out at someone, but they are unsure why (no context) and are pushing down the intuitive danger signal they are getting... I know I'd rather get someone checked out and be wrong then say nothing and watch them go on to harm someone else/many someones...


I guess my point is, that family/friends of people working in safety critical jobs should not be afraid that by expressing concern for whatever reason that it will become an automatic reason for them to lose their job/license/whatever... in that sense, the industry does need to change to enable those who need help to get it. Lubitz's ex GF may well not have said anything for fear she might be wrong and get him fired, when the main concern should be the fitness to fly of the pilot while giving them other options if indeed they have a problem. Not every pilot who has a mental health issue has a major one posing a threat to life (their or otherwise)

I think the specifics of that have been pretty well covered by other posters here.
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Old 28th Mar 2015, 10:21
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We are trying to avoid the nearly unavoidable . What about cockpit policy in cargo planes? They can also fly into a building.
I m not sure if by letting people into the cockpit who have had no training for it, we are going to avoid this or make the cockpit a safer place.
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Old 28th Mar 2015, 10:25
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Everybody pilot will agree with me that a 'minimum 2 persons on the flightdeck' rule only serves the prevention of one falling asleep.
I also think we are planting lettuce upside down if a CA has to supervise the lonely pilot.

Pure 'Window dressing'.

But I see an opportunity for loco's to engage pay to fly, non typed MPL holders to act as 'pilot observers'.
They can invent a whole stack of SOP's for them too.

All in the name of safety.
Hopefully the public will buy it, and the crew puts up with it.
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Old 28th Mar 2015, 10:29
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For many years in the Air Force my doctor was a "company" man who had a duty to report any psychological issues up the chain of command, due to the "special" ordnance we carried.
I now work for a company where all the pilots are under the care of company doctors. This situation does have grey areas , doctor patient confidentiality issues versus the "greater good".
Simply put, had either of Lubick's doctors contacted GWs about his mental state this crash could have been avoided.
The debatable point about one's right to privacy over the right of innocents being murdered by a fruit loop needs to be settled IMHO.
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Old 28th Mar 2015, 10:30
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Most of the newer headsets with integral microphones are so lightweight that sometimes you forget that they're still on your head as you get off the seat. And yes, I've heard copilots breathe when the intercom switch was held or stuck in transmit mode.
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Old 28th Mar 2015, 10:30
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The CVR microphone would also not be able to pick up normal breathing. You will know if you have spend time in an A320. And there was even more noise on this MMO/VMO descent from aerodynamic noise.
They can remove the background noise from the CVR recording by audio processing tools. That makes it easier to detect also faint sounds.
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Old 28th Mar 2015, 10:33
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But I see an opportunity for loco's to engage pay to fly, non typed MPL holders to act as 'pilot observers'.
You know, there are no MPL holders without a typerating, as the MPL is only issued after LIFUS (Line Flying Under Supervision) has been successfully completed.

Why a rogue FA? With only two in the front for the vast majority of the time, what is to stop a rogue FO or capt doing a here's Johnny?
Nothing, never has, never will. However, it is a lot easier to get into the FA position than in the FO/CPT position for those with malicious intent. Just apply to an open position (and there are always some with turnover rates of more than 50% per year) and you're there.
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Old 28th Mar 2015, 10:34
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We are trying to avoid the nearly unavoidable . What about cockpit policy in cargo planes? They can also fly into a building.
I m not sure if by letting people into the cockpit who have had no training for it, we are going to avoid this or make the cockpit a safer place.
Dirik

The problem is also there on Positioning flights when there is no one on board other than the two crew so its not just Cargo Flights and in the wrong hands an empty jet is just as lethal a weapon as a full one.

Going back to Cabin crew entering the Cockpit when one crew member leaves this is opening another avenue for terrorists organisations to train an extremist with a good record and to then get that Girl/Man to apply for a job as Cabin crew (easily achieved) That makes terrorism more likely as the terrorist FA only has one person to deal with and can stop entry to the cockpit by the other crew members.

The only way Cabin crew should be allowed access to the flight deck is by training them for that role. Designating certain Senior Cabin crew with a track record of at Least 3 to 5 years with the Airline.
Those Senior and trained Cabin Crew with a long track record in the company should be the ONLY Cabin crew qualified and allowed to enter the Flightdeck

to allow any Cabin Crew to enter the cockpit with one flight crew member is asking for future trouble
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Old 28th Mar 2015, 10:35
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Well life goes on for everyone. Things happen. It can be a fine line between outing a loved one thus ruining their career over nothing and doing the right thing. So if a pilot friend going through a divorce says he is depressed and wants to kill her, do pick up the phone and call the FAA knowing he has been a rock solid pilot for 2 or 3 decades?

People say a whole lot of things they don't mean and almost always it's nothing. Everyone needs confidants. Pilots are human, it doesn't mean they have any intentions other than complete commitment and dedication to the wellbeing of their passengers. Creating a situation for pilots in which they are unable to intrust anybody with the inevitabilities of life isn't the answer.
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Old 28th Mar 2015, 10:41
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Clearly, the only efficient solution would be one marshall per flight,
disguised in cabin crew (male or female), trained for action, discreetly carrying a weapon, seated
in FD each time one pilote has to get out.
Clearly you should stick to writing/ journalism. If a pilot can go rogue, why can't a marshall? Now you have twice as many people that have to be sane.....ie you've halved your odds. Brilliant.
Bringing an extra human to the flight deck makes no sense whatsoever, it double your chances of a takeover. The pilot can still crash the aircraft anytime they want, but now someone else also has that opportunity.....someone who hasn't been psychologically screened no less. It may make the odd person feel safer, but that just means they are a bit dim.
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Old 28th Mar 2015, 10:43
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I assume that is a joke, or am I reading this correctly. You want someone who isn't a pilot to come and sit with you with a gun everytime someone goes out to the toilet. Why are you on this forum?
Do you have another efficient solution ? Not "someone with a gun", as you write improperly : a police officer or an agent from an enforcement agency with a gun.
I don't see why this couldn't be debated here.
As a passenger, and as a long-haul pilot's and former army fighter pilot's son myself, I would certainly be reassured by such a disposition.
No psychiatric test whatsoever will permit to detect if, when and how a psychopath will act. My wife is a therapist herself and she knows she will not meet some patients
alone in her office — borderline is borderline.
And please, aggressiveness is of no use here, a bit of decency won't do no harm. I took precautions in what I wrote, with some caveat.
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Old 28th Mar 2015, 10:45
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Originally Posted by latetonite
Everybody pilot will agree with me that a 'minimum 2 persons on the flightdeck' rule only serves the prevention of one falling asleep.
No it doesn't. It may reduce the risk, it does not prevent it. Once we had 4 out of 5 asleep including both pilots.
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Old 28th Mar 2015, 10:46
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Patient/doctor confidentiality hasn't exactly helped much here.
Whoever the doctor was signed him off for work. It appears that he suffered from some form of mental illness that led him to intentionally crash a plane full of people. This could have happened at any point in the past 50 years and maybe already has. What are the genuine ways to avoid it? At no point should the doctor be obliged to warn somebody that a pilot has such an illness...?
With this type of illness, surely the doctor should be assessing potential risk to other people...
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Old 28th Mar 2015, 10:48
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Many years ago, while undergoing line training as F/O in a new company, I started getting stressed, due to wanting to do well, not screw up etc. I started making small confidence/stress related mistakes like dropping check-lists, missing my call-sign and rushing things. The training captain, a calm elderly guy with a lifetime of experience, must have recognised this and announced in the cruise " I am going back for a break. You have control."
This was just what I needed. I looked around the flightdeck, noticed the beautiful sky for the first time, checked all flight parameters, and methodically collected my thoughts for the descent and approach. Requests from ATC were complied with in an orderly and professional manner. I was the business!
When the boss returned, I updated him on our progress, and asked if he would like an arrival briefing. "Ready to copy, Sir." was his reply. I went on to pass my line check with distinction.
Now, more than twenty years later, I am a training captain. Recently, I had a similar occasion, this time with an experienced F/O on a command upgrade. I knew he was very capable, but saw the stress mistakes creeping in. I remembered that time long ago, and went for a break, leaving him alone. It did the trick, and all was well from then on.
How sad, that recent events have now prevented this valuable training aid from being used.
Even on smaller types with less than fifty seats, there will presumably have to be two flight attendants, otherwise there will be no-one to look after the pax if one is guarding the pilot, and a flight attendant on the flight deck can also be a distraction.

Last edited by Mark R. Beacon; 28th Mar 2015 at 10:57. Reason: Typo
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Old 28th Mar 2015, 10:51
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Actual studies show there are 125 to 150 police suicides per year, at a rate of 14 - 17/100,000 (the public is 11/100,000 and the Army in 2009 was 20/100,000).

I don't understand the logic of this debate. A malcontent in the front seat has plenty of opportunity to cause harm and perhaps will not wait for a toilet break. If you are content with two crew up front most of the time, introducing a temporary stand in only increases risk. Only real mitigation would be to return to 3 on the FD, all screened as now.
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Old 28th Mar 2015, 10:52
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The only way Cabin crew should be allowed access to the flight deck is by training them for that role. Designating certain Senior Cabin crew with a track record of at Least 3 to 5 years with the Airline.
Agreed on that one, they also need a good understanding of what goes on if they are expected to detect the unusual. Would a cabin crew member have intervened in this case when the FO dialed an altitude and pulled the knob to descend? I suggest not until too late.

A shrink may be able to expand but I guess suicide is a lonely thing and maybe someone else on the flight deck would break that mind set, whereas alone on a locked flight deck he is on his own to do as he pleases. Any shrinks on?

Also, you always hear breathing on CVRs because the mikes are 'hot' to the CVR.
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Old 28th Mar 2015, 10:52
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Those Senior and trained Cabin Crew with a long track record in the company should be the ONLY Cabin crew qualified and allowed to enter the Flightdeck

to allow any Cabin Crew to enter the cockpit with one flight crew member is asking for future trouble

That will not stop a determined sleeper. Look at the guys who planned 9/11. They were in it for the long game.


Then you also add the dimension of increasing the already steep authority gradient present in some cultures/airlines whereby a junior cc feels unable to contradict/intervene in a situation where a senior is showing poor judgement/unable to perform said duty... again... the solution creating its own problems...

737, I agree, that sort of environment won't help either, but there needs to be some sort of go between... even some kind of confidential help line for the industry where people can vent, get advice or even run the 'my boyfriend said XYZ, he's flying tomorrow, should I be worried?' type scenarios without fear of getting anyone sacked. Then they could follow up if they so chose...

Such a helpline exists in Australia for kids/young adults facing problems they feel they can't go to anyone else about. It's funded I believe by donations/govt funding. A few cents per airline ticket worldwide? Worth it.
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Old 28th Mar 2015, 10:54
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Sigh. Although access to the door is absolutely worthless in preventing crew mischief, because if a pilot has murderous intent he will be able to destroy the aircraft in a myriad ways, if you *must* go on about the door, here is a solution for you.

Lock the passengers in.

They're the threat the door is supposed to guard against, no?

Move the door back so it seals off the cabin, where the threat is.

Then we can have an open cockpit, walk around, stretch our legs and aching backs, chat with the crew and enjoy our jobs a bit more. Its not good for my mental health to be locked into a 2x2m room 12 hrs a day.

Last edited by AfricanSkies; 28th Mar 2015 at 11:15.
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