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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

Old 29th Mar 2015, 10:11
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It would seem that given the magnitude of what happened many of us have been trying to rationalise and understand what led the FO to take the actions that he did. However of course what happened was not due to a rational mind, but one that had gone beyond the behavioural boundaries that we take for granted. It would be optimal to take sensible precautions to try to put in place new procedures to try to prevent the same actions being repeated in the future. It would seem that a lot of effort quite reasonably is being expended to achieve just that. No preventative measures will be 100% efficacious, as has been repeatedly said, but if new procedures are able to prevent just one other incidence of a similar type in the future then that would be worthwhile. Looking after the lives of all the people on board cannot have a price put on it, nor of the suffering of relatives - after all the relatives of the victims will live with the horror of the aftermath for the rest of their lives.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 10:14
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"MONTREAL-- The International Federation of Air Line Pilots’ Associations (IFALPA) deplores and condemns yesterday's leaking of certain elements of the Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) of the Germanwings flight 4U9525."

I'm afraid they need to get into the 21st Century - in a 24/7 news environment 150 people dead and people screaming (especially on PPRune) that it was due to the aeroplane design which is used to provide around 40% of daily flights worldwide ANY information will be published as soon as it is available

Some of it may indeed be wrong or premature but it's a damn sight more accurate than the realms of speculation that started 30 seconds after the accicent was reported - and people aren'tgoing to wait for a full enquiry taking a couple of years to find out what happened
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 10:20
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So about 25,000 flights a day in Europe. How many man hours are going to be wasted with a flight attendant on the flight deck just in case we get another nutty pilot? That is the craziness. There are threats to safety in aviation. This isn't one of them. On this occasion the apparently nutty ( but I still prefer to wait for the full investigation)pilot did something while alone. I am sure professional pilots would agree that a nutty pilot could do something catastrophic in just about all phases of flight that would be very difficult if not impossible to recover from. What shall we do about that? We must stop regulating every time there is any incident. Sometimes crazy, terrible things happen.

How does it make sense that when the captain leaves the cockpit and the remaining pilot is a friend of his for 25 years, has two medals for bravery for time in the Air Force, is generally know as a top guy that they have to get a crew member that joined the airline 3 weeks ago in to supervise?? Yes I know they're only there to open the door and not 'supervise' but in IMHO it amounts to the same thing. Total madness.

Pilots must be screened, psychometric testing, profiling, monitoring blah blah blah. But who should come in when when the pilot is left alone to monitor the door? Oh anybody will do. Just the nearest or the most junior one, it doesn't matter. All just a crazy knee jerk reaction to a terrible crazy awful event.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 10:21
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You have to remember that this is not a normal accident! AAIB is Air Accident investigation not AIR Murder investigation
Exactly. The situation is that the facts point to criminal action - to the point that an "innocent" explanation is pretty much implausible.

I really do admire and respect the painstaking work done by accident investigators. I'm often fascinated by Air Crash Investigation on TV. And I appreciate that the careful methodic approach of these professionals has done much to enhance air safety over many years.

Equally however, some crimes is so heinous that it is irresponsible and unreasonable to not release the information as soon as criminal investigators are clear what happened. They don't know all the fine details, and their investigation is ongoing. But they know the big picture. They wouldn't be releasing this information on the world stage if it was just one possible explanation - or even if it was just the most likely explanation. They are quite certain of the explanation.

Timely and transparent release of information is important for the relatives - who aren't even going to get a body to bury. Early answers are important to help the relatives process this awful event. The relatives of MH370 (and for two years those of AF447) have endured a special kind of hell. Early answers were not possible with those two events. But when everyone can see a plane fragmented on the side of the mountain and when innocent explanations are quickly excluded. who would really tell the relatives they will have to wait until the investigation is completed? And imagine the awful backlash if the truth only came out months later when it was known with certainty in the first couple of days.

There are security considerations also. Quick measures being implemented may not stop a 2nd incident. There are no guarantees when dealing with this sort of event. But just imagine is there was a 2nd event while the accident investigation was ongoing.

Remember the crucial accident investigation will be ongoing quietly in the background. And I am supremely confident in the ability of the accident investigators to do their important job not distracted by the information released by the criminal investigators. And if they find it was something else, then that will come out. But I don't think anyone really believes that is going to happen.

I would even go further than this. Maybe the release of information from the criminal investigators is taking the pressure and the media spotlight off the accident investigators, and allowing them to get on with their job.

Whenever the world changes, we have to change also. That may mean a departure from previous practice. But such change is sometimes inevitable as it is forced upon us.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 10:40
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Fire Axe

Murder by Fire Axe has appeared again. And why not - it is almost the ideal weapon for a single handed assailant. So why carry it? Has anyone ever needed one? Remove it and be happier at having CC as second person when needed.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 10:43
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Because an out of control fire is a real threat to the safety of the aircraft. A real threat. Not a made up media storm threat. It is needed for prising open panels breaking in to areas where a fire may be. I'm sure somebody more knowledgable will be along with the stats on in flight smoke,fire, fumes events. IMHO this is one of the threats we really should be protecting against.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 10:49
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Let's see. Still living with his long time teacher girlfriend he is broken up with. FA is now in a relationship with him knowing that.

Yes, pinch of salt. From both of them.

Back to reality. This is all fear based masterbation. Statistically there are literally dozens of other FAR more deadly things the public is exposed too which, unlike this, could be reliably addressed and improved resulting in REAL safety improvments.

The real mental illness????

Our own collectice inability as little scared dim-witted monkeys to be able to use logic and perspective instead of succumbing to fear based hype and sensationalism. Now THAT is the truth.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 10:54
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Totally agree with that. No ability to identify where the real threats and danger lie.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 10:55
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Back to reality. This is all fear based masterbation. Statistically there are literally dozens of other FAR more deadly things the public is exposed too which, unlike this, could be reliably addressed and improved resulting in REAL safety improvments.

The real mental illness????

Our own collectice inability as little scared dim-witted monkeys to be able to use logic and perspective instead of succumbing to fear based hype and sensationalism. Now THAT is the truth.
Like locking the flight deck door because of ONE incident? Or only allowing 100ml of clear explosive aboard?
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 11:02
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hotmetal

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Totally agree with that. No ability to identify where the real threats and danger lie.

Yup.

Even when we know exactly where they are and where they aren't.

Anxieties.com | How safe is commercial flight?
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 11:19
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If I was a captain would I leave a stranger alone in the FD and then lock myself out? Even if against my better judgement? I suppose I would have to if SOP dictates it?
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 11:33
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Psychometric Testing

I'm interested the way it is being suggested by the media that psychometric tests are the answer, and likewise Lufthansa claim all their pilots undertake regular psychometric test, clearly the tests don't work.

Psychometric tests fall into two areas:

(a) APTITUDE & ABILITY. This is to ensure the person has the ability and aptitude to succeed in initial pilot training, or conversion course.

(b) PERSONALITY. This test tries to map the person's personality, for example, 16 PF (16 personality factor). I have always been doubtful about such tests, I'd like to see the evidence that they have any validity.

Having said that, I fail to see how psychometric tests will ever detect underlying psychological and psychiatric problems and I believe that psychometric tests will be used as a a knee jerk reaction to satisfy the general public and authorities.

The way forward is to take a more holistic approach and a better awareness and understanding of those who we work with through HF/CRM and HP&L training programmes.

Here in the UK, I don't believe we have such tight privacy rules as Germany, according to the British Medical Association a General Practioner (doctor) can breach medical confidentiality, if they thought the patient could endanger others.

In the UK on renewal of a medical, you simply self disclose when and why you have seen a doctor since you last medical. Over twenty five years, I'm not aware my GP has ever been contacted, or that the CAA have ever seen my medical records.

However, in the UK our National Health Service (NHS) patients records are held electronically (unless you opt out), this holds all information on all medical treatment for an individual. So the simple answers here in the UK is that prior to a medical an AME (Authorised Medical Examiner) could access the patients records online.

The next point is should intemperate acts be immediately notified to the AME, this was first put forward at a conference in Dublin in the mid nineties, but was opposed at the time, not least by myself. However the present situation in the UK is that if an individual in the UK holds a firearms licence, my understanding the moment the police caution, arrest or charge an individual, their firearms licence is revoked until further investigation.

Oddly if an airline pilot is arrested for example an drink driving or a drugs offence in the UK, and he or she tells the police they are an airline pilot, my understanding they will notify the CAA, but if they don't tell the police their correct profession, the police have no reason to contact the CAA. So unlike the holder of a firearms licence, the problem is not flagged up! On that basis, it would seem sensible that there is a mechanism that certain criminal events can be flagged up, as they may be an indication of a lack fitness to fly, until verified by the AME.

Finally if the media reports are correct, if Lubitz had has issues with depression and coping with stress, at such an early stage in his career, I question why he was ever allowed by Lufthansa to continue with his career. I appreciate my view might not meet with equal opportunities, but the employee must be fit for purpose.

Unfortunately in the UK there is a lot of political correctness in terms of equal opportunities which often leads to the 'wrong stuff' being appointed on the basis of a disability or ethnic origin. To give a brilliant example, couple of years ago, I observed a court hearing, and the District Judge had such a severe speech impediment that the respondent and his very young barrister (counsel) had to ask the judge on a number occasions to repeat what he had said (up to three or four times) which clearly angered the judge, to the detriment of the respondent. I just came away with the impression, that this judge should never have been appointed as a judge, for the same reason he should never pursued a career as an air traffic controller!!!
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 11:38
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How about mandating that the press and government educate and warn the public IN PROPORTION to the real dangers of the things that are killing them and if they don't...

then hold them responsible for KILLING the public by scaring the the living bejesus out of them over safe things and praying on their latent fears to sell advertising and for political grandstanding?!

If we are really talking about safety then nothing else would even come close to saving as many lives.

Now there's a truth pill.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 11:55
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Athonite

Incontrollable Anger not depression appears to be behind all these awful incidents like a young person venting his anger against a school by gunning down a school yard of innocent kids.

This appears to be the case with all these mass murders including this one. The label of depression does not do a service to the vast majority of people who suffer that at one point or another and would not hurt a fly only themselves
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 11:58
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Trick cyclist tests

If some sort of phsyological testing was mandated judging from the posts above 75% of the people offering opinions on this forum would be barred from the flight deck of airliners.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 11:59
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Does anybody here have insight to the current medical situation in Europe, who is responsible for pilot "airworthiness"?

When I was on duty there, we had strict medical supervision by the airline doctors, who knew us quite well after a while. I now hear rumors that the responsibility for the medical fit-to-fly reasoning was moved by EU regulations to some anonymous authorities. I cannot believe this to be true, because it would be so stupid to take responsibility from the once having the duty of operations plus knowledge of the pilots and give it to some buttheads in some far away offices.
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 12:18
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Any pilot in any system should be able to come foreword with these issues. At any time if a pilot feels he is not fit to fly, he shouldn’t.

Any manager, be it a chief pilot or chief medical officer should appreciate when a pilot does this. It means that the pilot trusts the system and so it should be.
There has always been the same dilemma:
You call in "not fit to fly" for the first time and your decision will be lauded as "professional". You call in sick for the third or fouth time and may have a not so pleasant discussion with the chief pilot not much later...
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 12:19
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It looks as though Lubitz prompted the captain to go to the toilet. If so, this was very premeditated.

'Open the goddamn door!': Desperate final pleas of Germanwings captain emerge as black box transcript reveals Lubitz's repeated attempts to coax pilot into toilet | Daily Mail Online
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 12:21
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As RANTANPLANE said earlier - probably we will never know why....

In the mid-90's when I was out of work, I did some HAZMAT procedural reviews + updates in Russia for a FTSE 100 UK company's operations there....Met the Group CFO ( Finance Director in those days ) a couple of times who was blue-chip background, a top, top businessman, and genuinely nice guy....

Fast forward 10 years or so, and having a fairly new wife and young daughter and having had a fantastically successful business career in finance / investment banking, which had accumulated a personal wealth of £10 million plus, he threw himself under a train near Heathrow....

To this day, nobody knows why and, more importantly, there were absolutely no signs in both his private and personal life, even on the day itself, that this was coming....

Whatever the experts eventually determine as the reason for the FO's actions, without him there to answer himself, it can only be a guess at best....
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Old 29th Mar 2015, 12:27
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silverstrata,

Out of principle I don't click through to the Daily Mail. I have no respect for their publication and they are not aviation-industry friendly.

Clicking through just adds to their hit count, which influences what they can charge advertisers.

Is there any other source?
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