Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France
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B247NG:
B247NG, It doesn't matter whether a person has "suicidal tendencies" or not. It is not known why certain (few) people become both homicidal and suicidal, when taking Prozac. There seems to be no correlation with tendencies the patient already has. It's the same with Chantix. People who would be voted by their peers as the most likely to not to commit suicide, suddenly kill themselves after taking Chantix for a week. The fact you wrote that SSRI's can increase the risk of suicide in people with suicidal tendencies, shows that you do not know what you are writing about.
fyrefli, SSRI's and other antidepressants do not cause suicidal thoughts/tendencies. But in people with suicidal tendencies, they can increase risk of suicide.
If suicidal thoughts are associated with depression, the lack of motivation caused by depression will prevent that person to commit a suicide. During the initial phase of treatment, Antidepressants will give that person the motivation and energy he needs, with depression and suicidal thoughts still there... Because of that, it's recommended for patients with suicidal thoughts to be monitored closely during the first month on antidepressants.
just wanted to clarify this
If suicidal thoughts are associated with depression, the lack of motivation caused by depression will prevent that person to commit a suicide. During the initial phase of treatment, Antidepressants will give that person the motivation and energy he needs, with depression and suicidal thoughts still there... Because of that, it's recommended for patients with suicidal thoughts to be monitored closely during the first month on antidepressants.
just wanted to clarify this
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All the controllers get displayed to them is what is needed to do their jobs, but what is displayed is just the tip of quite a large iceberg of information.
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Information is not like other 'property' it can be disclosed without its ownership being transferred. In this case a cell phone recording of what was happening in the passenger cabin - perhaps 5 minutes of increasing panic would be significantly financially advantageous to the relatives of the deceased passengers. As for some reason knowledge in advance of impending death leads to significantly increased damages awarded against the airline.
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@SLFplatine
Of course you may be correct in this case, but I did say "on average." With a donkey you can use both carrot and stick, here you can use carrot or stick. No doubt both may work, it is just my contention that here the carrot will be more successful.
Well nsmith, yes but under the current German medical confidentiality regime with the severe legal consequences for the breach this particular FO did seek the medical attention and yet still took command of an airplane with 144 passengers on board and drove it into the side of a mountain.
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Threat Error Management = nouveau Crew Resource Management
Regarding my earlier post regarding German DLR Pilot Selection Psychological Battery DLR - Institute of Aerospace Medicine - Personnel Selection being a complete waste of time and money, though Lufthansa endorses this preselection assessment, as do many Flight Operations, in the past ten years . . .
The DLR psychological assessment fails to recognise pilots are human beings. A cup of coffee before going to the assessment could easily account for a candidate doing well . . . or someone who is a bundle of nerves, failing to get a good night's sleep or deadheading to an interview last minute, rushing to get there, due to other work commitments being amongst those whom fail the DLR.
The DLR Psych Eval can be practiced and trained for. In fact DLR offers a "coaching" service to pilots subjected to this assessment, which defeats the purpose.
Please consider, during World War II, there were Kamikaze (shinpū tokubetsu kōgeki tai) pilots threatened with execution and dishonour, whom refused to commit suicide for the Emperor. The difference between a healthy, rational mind and one that is otherwise.
Perhaps a way for large flight operations, such as airlines, to mitigate threats from in-flight Pilot Incapacitation or committing suicide due to some hidden or undetected mental affliction would be to have Aviation Medical Examiners and Aviation Psychologists (whom are also pilots), do a brief examination of the Flight Crew, in dispatch or prior to the crew entering the flight deck, in the situations where flight plans and documents are delivered to the aircraft.
It is possible to do such an examinations in 30 minutes. Instead of showing up one hour prior to departure, crew could show up one hour and thirty minutes prior to departure . . . a minor inconvenience. I operated for an airline in China, that had this procedure . . . Not every day, but frequently. Of course, the taxi ride to the airport would get one's heart rate up, but . . . You surely can see the benefit of this preflight medical/psychological check-up. Surely, it won't be 100% perfect, but will certainly mitigate.
Let's talk Crew Resource Management . . . The Darth Vader personalities, the pilots in the Left Seat whom believe they are God's because they were (emphasis on were) Top Gun or Red Flag graduates or whom believe CRM diminishes their absolute authority or whom treat everyone as a lesser human beings, because they were anointed as Captain or those whom believe they were born to be a Captain, or the management snitches whom have their noses buried deep up someone's bum, or those whom revert to pigeon-English when going through immigration in an Asian country . . . You know whom you are. Why create any conflict in the cockpit? Often it is your rude and arrogant behaviour that creates problems and errors. Sadly, many airlines around the world encourage if not condone this cult of complete .
On the flip side, I was in the jumpseat deadheading when I observed a First Officer, who was a retired R.o.C. Air Force General overrule the Captain, who was a retired R.o.C. Air Force Major, on de-icing. And, in China, I had a smartass FO with his whopping 2,500 hours experience, who could barely make a safe landing, say to me, "You are taking my job, why don't you retire, old man." Advice to wannabe Captains, behave, be professional, bide your time, as those before you had.
If you're sick, don't fly. If your mood or head is not right, don't fly. That easy.
All this crap about the cockpit door, pass code, key around the neck, an extra crewmember on the flight deck during absences for physiological needs is just that.
Fellow Pilots and Crewmembers: We are our own worst enemies. Thirty-six years experience (military and civil) has proven this.
The DLR psychological assessment fails to recognise pilots are human beings. A cup of coffee before going to the assessment could easily account for a candidate doing well . . . or someone who is a bundle of nerves, failing to get a good night's sleep or deadheading to an interview last minute, rushing to get there, due to other work commitments being amongst those whom fail the DLR.
The DLR Psych Eval can be practiced and trained for. In fact DLR offers a "coaching" service to pilots subjected to this assessment, which defeats the purpose.
Please consider, during World War II, there were Kamikaze (shinpū tokubetsu kōgeki tai) pilots threatened with execution and dishonour, whom refused to commit suicide for the Emperor. The difference between a healthy, rational mind and one that is otherwise.
Perhaps a way for large flight operations, such as airlines, to mitigate threats from in-flight Pilot Incapacitation or committing suicide due to some hidden or undetected mental affliction would be to have Aviation Medical Examiners and Aviation Psychologists (whom are also pilots), do a brief examination of the Flight Crew, in dispatch or prior to the crew entering the flight deck, in the situations where flight plans and documents are delivered to the aircraft.
It is possible to do such an examinations in 30 minutes. Instead of showing up one hour prior to departure, crew could show up one hour and thirty minutes prior to departure . . . a minor inconvenience. I operated for an airline in China, that had this procedure . . . Not every day, but frequently. Of course, the taxi ride to the airport would get one's heart rate up, but . . . You surely can see the benefit of this preflight medical/psychological check-up. Surely, it won't be 100% perfect, but will certainly mitigate.
Let's talk Crew Resource Management . . . The Darth Vader personalities, the pilots in the Left Seat whom believe they are God's because they were (emphasis on were) Top Gun or Red Flag graduates or whom believe CRM diminishes their absolute authority or whom treat everyone as a lesser human beings, because they were anointed as Captain or those whom believe they were born to be a Captain, or the management snitches whom have their noses buried deep up someone's bum, or those whom revert to pigeon-English when going through immigration in an Asian country . . . You know whom you are. Why create any conflict in the cockpit? Often it is your rude and arrogant behaviour that creates problems and errors. Sadly, many airlines around the world encourage if not condone this cult of complete .
On the flip side, I was in the jumpseat deadheading when I observed a First Officer, who was a retired R.o.C. Air Force General overrule the Captain, who was a retired R.o.C. Air Force Major, on de-icing. And, in China, I had a smartass FO with his whopping 2,500 hours experience, who could barely make a safe landing, say to me, "You are taking my job, why don't you retire, old man." Advice to wannabe Captains, behave, be professional, bide your time, as those before you had.
If you're sick, don't fly. If your mood or head is not right, don't fly. That easy.
All this crap about the cockpit door, pass code, key around the neck, an extra crewmember on the flight deck during absences for physiological needs is just that.
Fellow Pilots and Crewmembers: We are our own worst enemies. Thirty-six years experience (military and civil) has proven this.
Last edited by FWRWATPLX2; 28th Mar 2015 at 00:34. Reason: spelling and grammar
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@Susier
Oh right! And just how far should this empathy stretch..9/11, 7/7, Greenwich Barracks?? For those who purchased a ticket to board this plane with zero knowledge of the risk that they would become exposed to, is where our empathies should reside.
...not to try to empathise with this man but to try and understand why a human being might act this way...
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My two cents:
-The last link in the chain is by tradition the "probable cause".Its the last link that made it inevitable.The door design introduced after 911 wasnt thought through properly.That Law of Unexpected Consequences again.Solve one problem but create another.
-This "two in the flightdeck" procedure might well create yet another problem down the road.They say act in haste,repent at leisure.I would say more thought needs to be given to the matter before jumping on the bandwagon.For me,the inability of the lawful commander to re-enter the flightdeck is as bad as having Mohammad Atta getting unlawful access to the flightdeck on 911.So that door is an unsatisfactory design.The authorities need to find a re-design of this DENY feature and they need it quick because this two in the flightdeck idea is a quick fix and a poor one at that.
-Talk of mental health problems is an insult to the 149 dead.Operating pilots cant have mental health problems.Death of spouse/divorce will depress even the most stable extrovert.Pilot takes time off.But chronic repetitive depression or bipolar?NO.Automatic disqualification.
-Although there have been several cases of pilot suicide-murder,it is very rare in the West.This case should not be used as justification to implement any Draconian measures that would make life anymore difficult than it already is for pilots.Lets not get caught by that Law of Unintended Consequences again.
-Pilotless airliners will happen.But they too will be victim of that very same law.
-The last link in the chain is by tradition the "probable cause".Its the last link that made it inevitable.The door design introduced after 911 wasnt thought through properly.That Law of Unexpected Consequences again.Solve one problem but create another.
-This "two in the flightdeck" procedure might well create yet another problem down the road.They say act in haste,repent at leisure.I would say more thought needs to be given to the matter before jumping on the bandwagon.For me,the inability of the lawful commander to re-enter the flightdeck is as bad as having Mohammad Atta getting unlawful access to the flightdeck on 911.So that door is an unsatisfactory design.The authorities need to find a re-design of this DENY feature and they need it quick because this two in the flightdeck idea is a quick fix and a poor one at that.
-Talk of mental health problems is an insult to the 149 dead.Operating pilots cant have mental health problems.Death of spouse/divorce will depress even the most stable extrovert.Pilot takes time off.But chronic repetitive depression or bipolar?NO.Automatic disqualification.
-Although there have been several cases of pilot suicide-murder,it is very rare in the West.This case should not be used as justification to implement any Draconian measures that would make life anymore difficult than it already is for pilots.Lets not get caught by that Law of Unintended Consequences again.
-Pilotless airliners will happen.But they too will be victim of that very same law.
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@WingNut60
I grant you that the difference might be small in the end. My objection is that this is another kneejerk reaction which might make things worse if it is not properly planned.
Nevertheless, I guess the math probably is:
A) 2 pilots + axe vs 1 FA
B) 1 pilot vs 1 FA + axe
Sorry, but I can't quite rationalise objections to having FA in the cockpit.
How do such objections treat FA delivering meals?
What's the difference; in terms of a threat to pilot security?
How do such objections treat FA delivering meals?
What's the difference; in terms of a threat to pilot security?
Nevertheless, I guess the math probably is:
A) 2 pilots + axe vs 1 FA
B) 1 pilot vs 1 FA + axe
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@caulfield
If I were the pilot with chronic depression, a small family, a mortgage, and a large debt to pay off, I don't think this would this motivate me to seek help.
But chronic repetitive depression or bipolar?NO.Automatic disqualification.
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The door design introduced after 911 wasnt thought through properly.
When all pilots are given their own toilets, how long will it be before someone finds a way of locking their toilet door from the outside?
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A lot of discussion on the post 9/11 door that kept the pilot out of the flight deck but really none the discussion on the German medical confidentiality regime with the severe legal consequences for the breach that failed to keep the FO off of the flight deck in the first place. Just an observation.
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@SLFplatine
So your thesis is that had the German medical system not kept the pilot's confidentiality then he would have been prevented from flying. You may be right, but you must also accept that this might have prevented him from presenting his problems to the doctor in the first place, or going to an independent doctor instead.
I am concerned with the future, which means accepting that a) there will be a set of positive and negative aspects to every policy decision, and b) one has to talk in terms of the average result rather than focusing on any one specific incident.
We will never know if FO would have presented his problems if the German system had been different, I just think it is highly probable he would not have done so if he knew it would not have been kept confidential.
A lot of discussion on the post 9/11 door that kept the pilot out of the flight deck but really none the discussion on the German medical confidentiality regime with the severe legal consequences for the breach that failed to keep the FO off of the flight deck in the first place. Just an observation.
I am concerned with the future, which means accepting that a) there will be a set of positive and negative aspects to every policy decision, and b) one has to talk in terms of the average result rather than focusing on any one specific incident.
We will never know if FO would have presented his problems if the German system had been different, I just think it is highly probable he would not have done so if he knew it would not have been kept confidential.
Apologies from gutter press needed
Isn't it strange how none of the tabloids have been seen to apologise to Gernanwings and Airbus for suggesting just prior to the crash that this A320 was past its sell by date and insinuating maintenance problems.
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The two person on the FD does not require the both be "seated"
I don’t understand the misconception with the existing USA rule (plus RyanAir and others and which is now being adopted by more as a result of the GW crash).
I just read a post that “cabin crew member …is now mandated to sit next to the pilot when he is on his own.” It does no such thing! It requires that there be two on the Fight Deck. It does not require they be “seated”.
In fact, I understand that under normal circumstances when a pilot is taking a short relief break, the FA simply stands inside the door until the pilot returns. There would be no point in a FA sitting in the RH or LH seat, only to have to get up to determine if it is the pilot that is returning.
When standing behind him, even a slight female FA has quite an advantage over a seated male pilot attempting to take her out. She can manually open the door and retreat to the main cabin. In the GW case, the other pilot would have been there to battle over control, while the plane was on autopilot.
I just read a post that “cabin crew member …is now mandated to sit next to the pilot when he is on his own.” It does no such thing! It requires that there be two on the Fight Deck. It does not require they be “seated”.
In fact, I understand that under normal circumstances when a pilot is taking a short relief break, the FA simply stands inside the door until the pilot returns. There would be no point in a FA sitting in the RH or LH seat, only to have to get up to determine if it is the pilot that is returning.
When standing behind him, even a slight female FA has quite an advantage over a seated male pilot attempting to take her out. She can manually open the door and retreat to the main cabin. In the GW case, the other pilot would have been there to battle over control, while the plane was on autopilot.
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Pilots’ union: Germanwings CVR data leak ‘serious breach’ of rules
Pilots? union: Germanwings CVR data leak ?serious breach? of rules | Labor content from ATWOnline
Given the level of pressure this leak has undoubtedly created, the investigation team faces a serious distraction.
Quote:
Do they really have an axe in the passenger compartment?
Yes it is near emergency exit to break glass of window,in case.
theAP is offline
1.) your wrong
2.) your an idiot