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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

Old 28th Mar 2015, 15:46
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ASN News » List of aircraft accidents and incidents intentionally caused by pilots

40 years: 591 dead in 11 world jet suicide events. Matched in the USA every 1 day (hospital errors) & every 6 days (gun deaths). Get a grip.
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Old 28th Mar 2015, 15:47
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Originally Posted by Quantz
Clearly, the only efficient solution would be one marshall per flight,
disguised in cabin crew (male or female), trained for action, discreetly carrying a weapon, seated
in FD each time one pilote has to get out.
Practically impossible to do, cost-wise and from a legal point of view also maybe.
In that case, Lubitz would have had a marshall disguised in cabin crew seated beside him, which would have easily defeated him in any of his ill-conceived designs.
And that marshall should be carefully vetted too, of course…
Until the marshal has a problem. There is no vetting that's 100%. The current solution (another crew member in the cockpit) makes as much sense as just having a pilot and copilot alone in the cockpit (which does make sense).

We're never going to get 100% prevention of this, and certainly if the copilot wanted to commit suicide we couldn't prevent it, but we can at least deny him the opportunity to commit murder in the process
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Old 28th Mar 2015, 15:49
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First stated by President Hollande but also confirmed by other sources

According to the officials searching / investigating no part of the FDR has been found. I think they know better than Pressy Holly.
Which other sources (exclude journos please) have confirmed what?
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Old 28th Mar 2015, 15:51
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Trying to find a technical solution on the aircraft to the “problem” of a suicidal pilot is pointless, IMHO. Whether it involves doors, other people, computers or whatever, if the guy trying to crash the aeroplane and kill himself and possibly others is determined enough, they will succeed despite any precautions.

There have been many fatal accidents in the past where the pilot(s) have been doing everything in their power NOT to crash, yet it has still happened. I think most people who don’t fly for a living truly don’t understand how a moment’s inattention or an incorrect control input during a critical phase of flight (like takeoff and landing) can lead very quickly to disaster. A deliberate contrary action could speed that up to almost instantaneous.

For non-pilots, imagine sitting in the passenger seat of a car doing 60mph. Just as you are about to pass a car going in the opposite direction at the same speed, the driver turns sharply into the path of the oncoming vehicle. Even if you had a duplicate steering wheel fitted on your side, it would be too late to do anything in the fraction of a second that remained.

The real problem is how to avoid having a pilot with severe mental health issues operating an aircraft. By the time they are sat in the seat it is too late...
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Old 28th Mar 2015, 16:01
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Hempy, you said

40 years: 591 dead in 11 world jet suicide events. Matched in the USA every 1 day (hospital errors) & every 6 days (gun deaths). Get a grip.


Perhaps you could relax your grip a little? There is a very significant difference between implementing a homicidal mass casualty event, and - for example - making a mistake with treating a patient, or a patient infecting their bed-neighbor with a lethal bug.

At the end of a 'perfect' state-of-the-art flight everyone should arrive alive; while at the end of state-of-the-art treatment not everybody survives.
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Old 28th Mar 2015, 16:08
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Purely as a matter of interest, Mrs 411 and I were discussing this crash last night. She flew as CC on the 1-11, the 707 and the DC-10 with Laker (I only ever flew the DC-10). She tells me that it was standard procedure on the 1-11 for one of the CC to sit up front whenever one of the pilots took a break and that was 30 - 35 years ago. (All the other aircraft in the Laker fleet carried a flight engineer so the problem didn't occur).
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Old 28th Mar 2015, 16:10
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Odyssues, You did read the article, didn't you?

The point being that a little bit of perspective wouldn't go astray. It's happened before, it'll probably happen again, and no amount of 'do this, do that' will change it. Odds are you'll die in a car accident on the way to the airport, so just relax and put it down to a statistical anomaly.
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Old 28th Mar 2015, 16:11
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What a heart wrenching statement by the father of Paul Bramley. Very dignified and full of what looking to the future should be.
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Old 28th Mar 2015, 16:14
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Not sure how credible Maria W. Is. She claims she was locked in a bathroom by Lubitz. That's not my understanding of how bathroom doors typically function.
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Old 28th Mar 2015, 16:15
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The total environment

Great post Mark Beacon (currently 2390). Trust, wisdom, familiarity with the team, all in decline. I could tell a similar story. Trust amplifies when it is given, but has a hard time growing when not given. Familiarity provides more windows into another person. Randomized crews may be graphed as being capable of efficient action but I will never believe they function together as a cohesive, well informed team.

But would you have done the same thing if you 1) had just met the person; 2) found you had some unexplainable dislike for the person?

Last edited by Leightman 957; 28th Mar 2015 at 16:16. Reason: 2390, for what that's worth
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Old 28th Mar 2015, 16:17
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Piloto2011
I cannot see why so many are opposing the two-crew rule ... Just the presence of cabin crew on the flight deck would have prevented this tragedy
I am afraid I disagree - it likely would have just altered the exact way he did it.
Why not further restricting the two-crew rule to only the purser allowed on the flight deck with only one pilot present and the door shut?

Being appointed the role of the purser requires longer employment with an operator plus a decent performance record. Also, cabin crew allowed onto the flight deck from now on are to undergo a more thorough background check including a more restrictive medical similar to a flight crew's.
Such mitigations would reduce the concerns many have (including my own), but in the same breath would be why the airlines would likely resist (cost).

But they still leave the biggest problem unanswered - you are trying to "mitigate" having pilots on board who will deliberately crash the aircraft. That to me is an unacceptable premise, and not possible to comprehensively mitigate against. So I think the basic issue needs to be addressed, not accepted?
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Old 28th Mar 2015, 16:22
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After 9/11, certainly in the airline I worked for (very big wide body operator) , the doors just appeared - no scenario guidance, no what ifs,no training, nothing
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Old 28th Mar 2015, 16:25
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@Castlehard:

Not sure how credible Maria W. Is. She claims she was locked in a bathroom by Lubitz. That's not my understanding of how bathroom doors typically function.
In continental Europe, internal doors often open outwards rather than inwards. You can lock someone in by blocking the door and refusing to let it open.
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Old 28th Mar 2015, 16:27
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FullWings:
Trying to find a technical solution on the aircraft to the “problem” of a suicidal pilot is pointless, IMHO. Whether it involves doors, other people, computers or whatever, if the guy trying to crash the aeroplane and kill himself and possibly others is determined enough, they will succeed despite any precautions.

There have been many fatal accidents in the past where the pilot(s) have been doing everything in their power NOT to crash, yet it has still happened. I think most people who don’t fly for a living truly don’t understand how a moment’s inattention or an incorrect control input during a critical phase of flight (like takeoff and landing) can lead very quickly to disaster. A deliberate contrary action could speed that up to almost instantaneous.

For non-pilots, imagine sitting in the passenger seat of a car doing 60mph. Just as you are about to pass a car going in the opposite direction at the same speed, the driver turns sharply into the path of the oncoming vehicle. Even if you had a duplicate steering wheel fitted on your side, it would be too late to do anything in the fraction of a second that remained.

The real problem is how to avoid having a pilot with severe mental health issues operating an aircraft. By the time they are sat in the seat it is too late...
(my bold)

Thanks FullWings! Finally a sensible post in this forum. The airline companies who have just decided to add a second person into the cockpit while one of the pilots are out are only responding to media hysteria! To add another person into the cockpit is to add another potential for hazard, once if a pilot wants to do harm, he will find a way to do it!!!
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Old 28th Mar 2015, 16:29
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But they still leave the biggest problem unanswered - you are trying to "mitigate" having pilots on board who will deliberately crash the aircraft. That to me is an unacceptable premise, and not possible to comprehensively mitigate against. So I think the basic issue needs to be addressed, not accepted?
There may be another way. Most agree that drone/remote control/pilotless is not the way to go at least for the foreseeable. The PF could crash deliberately in close ground proximity by sudden gross control action impossible for PNF to overcome let alone a FA. In this case the pilot chose to set an un-cleared course, speed and descent towards high terrain. It would be fairly easy for an algorithm either onboard, ground or interactive ground/flight to take or prevent contol action in extreme circumstances. It would require a huge amount of technical evaluation and pilot input to find an appropriate balance but I think it could be done and implemented in a useful timescale.
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Old 28th Mar 2015, 16:38
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It would require a huge amount of technical evaluation and pilot input to find an appropriate balance but I think it could be done and implemented in a useful timescale.
Trouble is the only "useful timescale" most are working to now is that for tomorrow's newspapers
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Old 28th Mar 2015, 16:44
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ASN News » List of aircraft accidents and incidents intentionally caused by pilots

40 years: 591 dead in 11 world jet suicide events. Matched in the USA every 1 day (hospital errors) & every 6 days (gun deaths). Get a grip.
Right. But 422 of them were in the past 3 years, suggesting this is something the airlines are right to be concerned about.

And your entire premise is wrong. Imagine if the industry had adopted your "acceptable loss" / "grip-getting" attitude? Presumably an occasional mid-air collision or door falling off would simply have required some corporate manning-up rather than spending millions to develop collision warning systems and redesigning doors...?
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Old 28th Mar 2015, 16:47
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The ex-gf interview

To all who are speculating about quotes taken from this interview with his ex:

Please bear in mind that this "exclusive interview" with his ex-girlfriend was conducted by German newspaper "Bild". A sensationalist publication, comparable with Daily Mail and such, or even worse.

It's also well known that they pay good amounts of $ for "exclusive interviews".

I wouldn't pay too much attention to what is written in that newspaper.
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Old 28th Mar 2015, 16:56
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The reinforced locking doors were certainly a reaction to 9/11 but I disgree that they were not carefully considered. No solution is perfect. The reinforced doors and locking mechanisms prevented some possible risks and introduced others. These new risks were doubtless considered and thought to be far less likely than the ones that were prevented, and thus a resonable trade off for the benefit provided, as nearly every safety and design decision is.

Life is not risk-free and it cannot be. We can never assure 100% safety.
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Old 28th Mar 2015, 17:08
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Sanity Check

aguadalte

The real problem is how to avoid having a pilot with severe mental health issues operating an aircraft. By the time they are sat in the seat it is too late...
Are you suggesting a sanity cross check pre-flight?
Paramedics establish if a patient is mentally altered at a scene by confirming they are 4x4. Meaning you ask 4 basic questions and verify 4 correct answers e.g. name, todays date, who is the President, do you know where you are. Any hesitation or spurious answer helps assess the individuals state of mind.

IMHO this is flawed and far better to assume that one flight crew might become mentally altered at any time i.e. mid-flight. So you should have at least 2 people behind the security door at all times. Maybe consider putting a bathroom inside the secure cockpit area. Allowing only one person up front is clearly a single point of failure in an environment engineered for redundancy.
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