I am an Army of One (merged)
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Unfortunately, Charlie32, comments such as yours are inevitable when NON professional pilots decide to pass comment on subjects of which they have ZERO experience, nor comprehension.
Quite frankly, postings that display gross misunderstandings take up valuable space and time (both of your's in posting, and others' in wading through it!)
Loaded1, don't encourage 441A - he's NOT an airline manager, just a wannabe one who thinks if he bashes pilots publically he might get some sucker to offer financial support for his "Low cost Indonesian museum operation". Years in the desert of Saudi Arabia have turned this soon-to-be octagenarian into a bitter and twisted retired pilot.
I reckon you summed him up pretty well with your comment, "you are a sad lurker with a sick envy of airline pilots."
Back to the subject. The present beanos seem to think a war of deceit and deception is perfectly acceptable on their part, wrt THEIR interpretation of agreements and contracts - and it was THEY who laid these new "ground rules".
Instead of honesty and past, traditional practices, there has suddenly evolved a culture of lies - often blatant - to which any objection is met with more lies, and or threats of disciplinary action.
Quite simply, pilots expect to receive ONLY that which has been agreed upon at the time of signing up.
Obviously that was NOT the intention of many in "upper management", although they were signatories.
The rewards being reaped (or NOT) are from the seeds sown and watered!
Quite frankly, postings that display gross misunderstandings take up valuable space and time (both of your's in posting, and others' in wading through it!)
Loaded1, don't encourage 441A - he's NOT an airline manager, just a wannabe one who thinks if he bashes pilots publically he might get some sucker to offer financial support for his "Low cost Indonesian museum operation". Years in the desert of Saudi Arabia have turned this soon-to-be octagenarian into a bitter and twisted retired pilot.
I reckon you summed him up pretty well with your comment, "you are a sad lurker with a sick envy of airline pilots."
Back to the subject. The present beanos seem to think a war of deceit and deception is perfectly acceptable on their part, wrt THEIR interpretation of agreements and contracts - and it was THEY who laid these new "ground rules".
Instead of honesty and past, traditional practices, there has suddenly evolved a culture of lies - often blatant - to which any objection is met with more lies, and or threats of disciplinary action.
Quite simply, pilots expect to receive ONLY that which has been agreed upon at the time of signing up.
Obviously that was NOT the intention of many in "upper management", although they were signatories.
The rewards being reaped (or NOT) are from the seeds sown and watered!
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I feel a bit miffed that you have left me out of your tirade Capt M. I wonder why all you pilots think that everyone else is in awe of you and are jealous. Really we think the flash belt buckles, sun glasses, cars and molls a bit pathetic. Soon of course we won't need you, just someone who can taxi the thing to the runway and engage the auto systems.
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Why is it that, when that anonymous bean counters find a way to circumvent the contract, they are helping the company? When pilots adhere strictly to the contract and FAR's, we are villians.
If we agreed to take 50% pay cuts, the beanies would find a way to lose those savings and we would be under pressure to give more.
I didn't receive my pilot certificates in a box of Wheaties. I paid big bucks for them. I bust my a** to be the best pilot I can be. The best lawyers can set their fees. The best surgeons get paid the most. Why should highly qualified(in terms of ratings and experience) be required to constantly cover for the failings of management and 'take one for the team'?
The CAL pilot in question and the others here who see his point were not born slackers--they were created. Having seen the fruits of MY efforts to save money flushed down the toiled by inept management is infuriating. We can't leave and we can't fire the managers(usually mid-level, invisible types) but we don't have to continue supporting the people who are endangering our careers.TC
If we agreed to take 50% pay cuts, the beanies would find a way to lose those savings and we would be under pressure to give more.
I didn't receive my pilot certificates in a box of Wheaties. I paid big bucks for them. I bust my a** to be the best pilot I can be. The best lawyers can set their fees. The best surgeons get paid the most. Why should highly qualified(in terms of ratings and experience) be required to constantly cover for the failings of management and 'take one for the team'?
The CAL pilot in question and the others here who see his point were not born slackers--they were created. Having seen the fruits of MY efforts to save money flushed down the toiled by inept management is infuriating. We can't leave and we can't fire the managers(usually mid-level, invisible types) but we don't have to continue supporting the people who are endangering our careers.TC
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Yes indeed...like 'ole Bud Maytag at National Airlines said many years ago....let 'em pound sand....and so ALPA did...for many years.
Nothing changes...except the folks involved.
With a stack of applications eight feet high....pilots today are on the short end, make no mistake.
Tough beans.
Nothing changes...except the folks involved.
With a stack of applications eight feet high....pilots today are on the short end, make no mistake.
Tough beans.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Same ol' same ol' from SOG (411A)..."With a stack of applications eight feet high....pilots today are on the short end, make no mistake.
In fact, the FEWER pilots employed at the present time allows for easier organisation and fewer differences of opinion within the ranks.
Perhaps that's why the MAJORITY of responses to this topic have been in agreement with the opening post.
Tough beans that old 411A is well and truly on the outer!
And just to keep YOU happy, Carruthers, the word I believe you meant to use was ENVIOUS - not JEALOUS - and your post reeks of it. I'll admit to the sunglasses
(Ray Ban, in fact), but the "flash belt buckles, cars and molls" are more the domain of the private pilot, and the comic books.
Roll on auto systems (can't WAIT to see how a rapid depressurisation is handled )!
I think you'll know we're getting close when we see driverless tugs to tow the aircraft out for take-off, and a passenger cabin fitted out with self-serve food and drink vending machines. Naturally ALL aircraft will fly SID's and STARS at predetermined levels along RNAV routes - weather and turbulence avoidance is NOT an option!
In fact, the FEWER pilots employed at the present time allows for easier organisation and fewer differences of opinion within the ranks.
Perhaps that's why the MAJORITY of responses to this topic have been in agreement with the opening post.
Tough beans that old 411A is well and truly on the outer!
And just to keep YOU happy, Carruthers, the word I believe you meant to use was ENVIOUS - not JEALOUS - and your post reeks of it. I'll admit to the sunglasses
(Ray Ban, in fact), but the "flash belt buckles, cars and molls" are more the domain of the private pilot, and the comic books.Roll on auto systems (can't WAIT to see how a rapid depressurisation is handled
)! I think you'll know we're getting close when we see driverless tugs to tow the aircraft out for take-off, and a passenger cabin fitted out with self-serve food and drink vending machines. Naturally ALL aircraft will fly SID's and STARS at predetermined levels along RNAV routes - weather and turbulence avoidance is NOT an option!
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KaptainM,
Most problems you lot encounter during your operational CARREER, we engineers could automate a solution for. The mentioned rapid decompress, could be solved with an input to the A/P.
We are ALL indispencible, Loaders, Redcaps, ATC, F/A's, Engineers, Fuelers ETC, ETC, if any group was expendible, it would not exist in todays aviation industry.
So stop whining, and support your local baggage handler.
Best regards and fly safely,
Doc
Most problems you lot encounter during your operational CARREER, we engineers could automate a solution for. The mentioned rapid decompress, could be solved with an input to the A/P.
We are ALL indispencible, Loaders, Redcaps, ATC, F/A's, Engineers, Fuelers ETC, ETC, if any group was expendible, it would not exist in todays aviation industry.
So stop whining, and support your local baggage handler.
Best regards and fly safely,
Doc
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Anyone who thinks pax will get onto an aircraft with complete automation and no pilots is living in cuckoo land. Anyone who thinks that pax are stupid enough to get onto an aircraft with complete automation and an office boy to turn it on resides in the same place.
Anyone who thinks 411A represents current airline management thinking is similarly deluded- professionals understand that the cyclical nature of the aviation employment market is not as clear-cut as he proposes. The manager declining applications now will probably be tearing his hair out trying to find enough crews in a year or two- and pilots remember.
Anyone who thinks airline pilots are egotists per se has no understanding of the profession.
Anyone who thinks that creating a pool of unhappy, de-motivated staff is good for the bottom line has no understanding of business.
Anyone who thinks that pilots- unhappy and de-motivated as they may be- are anything other than professional and safe in the cockpit, has no understanding of what it takes to become a pilot.
Anyone who thinks that pilots cannot, by commission or omission, save their companies an enormous amount of money should they choose to do so, knows nothing of airline flying.
And finally... hands up all those that find the pilot-bashing coming from uninformed spectators a little tiresome on the Professional Pilots Rumour Network. Some people, it seems, need to get out more...
Anyone who thinks 411A represents current airline management thinking is similarly deluded- professionals understand that the cyclical nature of the aviation employment market is not as clear-cut as he proposes. The manager declining applications now will probably be tearing his hair out trying to find enough crews in a year or two- and pilots remember.
Anyone who thinks airline pilots are egotists per se has no understanding of the profession.
Anyone who thinks that creating a pool of unhappy, de-motivated staff is good for the bottom line has no understanding of business.
Anyone who thinks that pilots- unhappy and de-motivated as they may be- are anything other than professional and safe in the cockpit, has no understanding of what it takes to become a pilot.
Anyone who thinks that pilots cannot, by commission or omission, save their companies an enormous amount of money should they choose to do so, knows nothing of airline flying.
And finally... hands up all those that find the pilot-bashing coming from uninformed spectators a little tiresome on the Professional Pilots Rumour Network. Some people, it seems, need to get out more...
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The only "real" problem Raw Data has...is the number of applications that he does NOT see crossing his desk....every day. And these guys are willing (and have the experience) to sell their colleagues down the river.
And suspect they will, given the chance.
Management is in the drivers seat....for now, and in the immediate future. Could change of course....perhaps not in our lifetimes....time will indeed, tell.
And suspect they will, given the chance.
Management is in the drivers seat....for now, and in the immediate future. Could change of course....perhaps not in our lifetimes....time will indeed, tell.
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I think the discussion has gotten off track a bit but as a non-pilot let me put my two cents in. Regardless of all the concerns in the posts above there is one fact that remains undisputable - the airlines (at least US comm'l) are one of the few customer service industries that 1. Do not care about how they treat the customers 2. Have identified their best customers - those of us biz slf who pay the freight for most everyone else - and systematically single us out for outrageous treatment in the form of unreasonable fares +2400 USD no notice coast to coast 3. Systematically squander the resources they are given 4. Treat the crews flying the planes as bad as if not worse than the pax This leads to one thing every time - dissatisfaction by all involved, p*ss poor service in general and pax voting with their feet for autos, trains etc where they can be reasonably substituted for airlines. It is a sad state of affairs which needs immediate change!
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GeofJ--
Could not agree more...especially the high yield pax...get it in the neck, nearly every time.
No wonder asian airlines are rated best in service...and yes, even in available fares.
Wonder when managements in Europe and North America will wake up?
Could not agree more...especially the high yield pax...get it in the neck, nearly every time.
No wonder asian airlines are rated best in service...and yes, even in available fares.
Wonder when managements in Europe and North America will wake up?
Grandpa Aerotart
Geofj
That about somes up the situation admirably.
411A
1 year ago there was a worldwide shortage of experienced pilots. Retirements are continuing apace but the downturn post 911 is hiding the real situation.
The real situation is not enough young people see aviation as a viable career...they can make as much, if not more money and be home everynight. And without dipping into their own(or parents) pockets to the tune of 30 to 100K depending on what country you're talking about.
The military hasn't been a fruitful hunting ground for airlines for decades...all the Vietnam era pilots are approaching retirement in a huge rush as we speak. If that idiot Bush keeps **** going for another few years you'll see even fewer mil pilots coming out to airlines...because they will be flying enough and doing what they love...killing people and breaking their stuff, in the defence of us all...and more power to them.
Better face facts 411A...the rest of the world is getting on with the business, Asia is leading the charge out of the 911 morase, while the US discovers new and 'better' ways to turn pax(particularly premium pax) away.
Nothing has changed, essentially, outside the contigous 48 states...it doesn't take 2 hours to board your aircraft in most countries of the world...and aircraft are full...despite what you hear from cynical management trying to hide their own incompetence.
The reason is simple IMHO...despite the political rhetoric the rest of the world does NOT view the 911 attack as an attack on the west or on democracy...it was an attack on the good ol' USA period.
In the next year or so there will be just as much of a shortage of experienced jet crew as there was a year ago....probably worse!
Then the worm will have turned back from the current attacks on aircrew to a more reasonable situation...and you can sit at your computer and rail against all of us out there doing it while you wallow in what is clearly unhappy retirement...unless of course you grace us all with a coronary
Chuck.
That about somes up the situation admirably.
411A
1 year ago there was a worldwide shortage of experienced pilots. Retirements are continuing apace but the downturn post 911 is hiding the real situation.
The real situation is not enough young people see aviation as a viable career...they can make as much, if not more money and be home everynight. And without dipping into their own(or parents) pockets to the tune of 30 to 100K depending on what country you're talking about.
The military hasn't been a fruitful hunting ground for airlines for decades...all the Vietnam era pilots are approaching retirement in a huge rush as we speak. If that idiot Bush keeps **** going for another few years you'll see even fewer mil pilots coming out to airlines...because they will be flying enough and doing what they love...killing people and breaking their stuff, in the defence of us all...and more power to them.
Better face facts 411A...the rest of the world is getting on with the business, Asia is leading the charge out of the 911 morase, while the US discovers new and 'better' ways to turn pax(particularly premium pax) away.
Nothing has changed, essentially, outside the contigous 48 states...it doesn't take 2 hours to board your aircraft in most countries of the world...and aircraft are full...despite what you hear from cynical management trying to hide their own incompetence.
The reason is simple IMHO...despite the political rhetoric the rest of the world does NOT view the 911 attack as an attack on the west or on democracy...it was an attack on the good ol' USA period.
In the next year or so there will be just as much of a shortage of experienced jet crew as there was a year ago....probably worse!
Then the worm will have turned back from the current attacks on aircrew to a more reasonable situation...and you can sit at your computer and rail against all of us out there doing it while you wallow in what is clearly unhappy retirement...unless of course you grace us all with a coronary
Chuck.
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Always with the negative waves, 411A, always with the negative waves . . .
Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here?
Woof, woof.
Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here?
Woof, woof.
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Well Chuck, you could be right....but then again, maybe not.
Just today received a call from a Continental furloughed pilot, and he mentioned that it looked like it would be a very long time before recall....and he was looking for a job. When I asked him if he would be willing to resign his CO seniority number for a RHS in a wide-body aeroplane, his response was..."in a heartbeat".
Just about sums up the current situation, I would say.
Just today received a call from a Continental furloughed pilot, and he mentioned that it looked like it would be a very long time before recall....and he was looking for a job. When I asked him if he would be willing to resign his CO seniority number for a RHS in a wide-body aeroplane, his response was..."in a heartbeat".
Just about sums up the current situation, I would say.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Well some common ground, 411A........"Just about sums up the current situation, I would say." - or was that a mis-print?
Re-read Chimbu Chuck's post - he is re-iterating FACTS as stated by Boeing (ever heard of them??) - wrt a SEVERE pilot shortage WITHIN the next 3 1/2 to 4 years - published pre-911.
A big part of the problem with beanies and management is their non-accountability for their decisions. I present Cathay Pacific and Aer Lingus managements as glaring examples of this in recent times.
That airlines are a milking cow for greedy, over-indulgent "suits" is evidenced by the outrageous packages, add-ons and bonuses with which they reward THEMSELVES, whilst at the same time attacking the very average conditions of the REVENUE PRODUCTIVE staff, and trying to degrade them further.
The "tactics" are simple - requiring no education, training, or skill - tell staff they must work longer, for the same (or less), reduce entitlements to a level below that which a non-employee would receive, and say "NO" to any and all submissions presented.
And for this, they reward themselves with a 6 or 7 figure salary!
Re-read Chimbu Chuck's post - he is re-iterating FACTS as stated by Boeing (ever heard of them??) - wrt a SEVERE pilot shortage WITHIN the next 3 1/2 to 4 years - published pre-911.
A big part of the problem with beanies and management is their non-accountability for their decisions. I present Cathay Pacific and Aer Lingus managements as glaring examples of this in recent times.
That airlines are a milking cow for greedy, over-indulgent "suits" is evidenced by the outrageous packages, add-ons and bonuses with which they reward THEMSELVES, whilst at the same time attacking the very average conditions of the REVENUE PRODUCTIVE staff, and trying to degrade them further.
The "tactics" are simple - requiring no education, training, or skill - tell staff they must work longer, for the same (or less), reduce entitlements to a level below that which a non-employee would receive, and say "NO" to any and all submissions presented.
And for this, they reward themselves with a 6 or 7 figure salary!
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They do, Kaptin M, because they can (as in...."they is the bosses").
OTOH, they report to the shareholders, who demand profits (what a novel idea), and if management does not deliver, all those bonuses that you so dispise....go away.
However, would agree that generally happy employees are more productive. The problem arises however...when they become as greedy and the managers....a downward spiral usually follows.
Which is...good, at least for new enterants to the marketplace...as in us.
OTOH, they report to the shareholders, who demand profits (what a novel idea), and if management does not deliver, all those bonuses that you so dispise....go away.
However, would agree that generally happy employees are more productive. The problem arises however...when they become as greedy and the managers....a downward spiral usually follows.
Which is...good, at least for new enterants to the marketplace...as in us.