I am an Army of One (merged)
Itīs not my personal attitude either, but...
the point is: more and more senior pilots who have been extremely loyal in the past are showing this change of attitude, whereas many younger colleagues have been showing it even sooner.
Itīs not about "right" or "wrong" - this sort of attitude will not do a company any good.
Management has a problem here! - They do not seem to have a solution yet, and even if, are unable to communicate it in a way for most of us to embrace.
As another colleague summarized recent contract talks:
Their immovable dogma is infinite "flexibility" on our part.
the point is: more and more senior pilots who have been extremely loyal in the past are showing this change of attitude, whereas many younger colleagues have been showing it even sooner.
Itīs not about "right" or "wrong" - this sort of attitude will not do a company any good.
Management has a problem here! - They do not seem to have a solution yet, and even if, are unable to communicate it in a way for most of us to embrace.
As another colleague summarized recent contract talks:
Their immovable dogma is infinite "flexibility" on our part.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Well written by whomever. Thanks for the link, Silverbird .
In fact I (and most other "soldiers" in this company) have made it POLICY to follow the Ops Manual to the letter eg. maximum taxi speeds (3 knots on slippery taxiways
), ALWAYS use the longest runway for take-off (regardless of take-off weight), select "gear down and landing flap on glide slope alive (those delayed gear/flap landings cost ME an extra minute or two in salary), start the APU after landing - even on the last sector of the day when you know that a GPU is waiting (in spite of advising the beanies that this is unnecessary).
Can anyone else remember those good old days, when ALL the employees worked TOGETHER to make their Company the BEST?
And it WAS!!
People actually ENJOYED going to work then, and the Company revelled in their annual balance sheet.
As somebody else on this forum wrote several weeks ago, an unhappy pilot is an expensive pilot.
Yep, the "New World management" has certainly turned THIS industry around!!
In fact I (and most other "soldiers" in this company) have made it POLICY to follow the Ops Manual to the letter eg. maximum taxi speeds (3 knots on slippery taxiways
), ALWAYS use the longest runway for take-off (regardless of take-off weight), select "gear down and landing flap on glide slope alive (those delayed gear/flap landings cost ME an extra minute or two in salary), start the APU after landing - even on the last sector of the day when you know that a GPU is waiting (in spite of advising the beanies that this is unnecessary).Can anyone else remember those good old days, when ALL the employees worked TOGETHER to make their Company the BEST?
And it WAS!!
People actually ENJOYED going to work then, and the Company revelled in their annual balance sheet.
As somebody else on this forum wrote several weeks ago, an unhappy pilot is an expensive pilot.
Yep, the "New World management" has certainly turned THIS industry around!!
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The saddest part of the story is that the beancounters think, no worse -they know- that they are doing good.
One real important thing must be missing in their training manuals. It is the chapter that teaches them how humans work. Humans as an individual and humans as a group. They work with humans but don't have a clue how to treat with them.
Isn't this a bit like putting me in a new type of aircraft without a course and without a manual? I think I'd get it airborne and I might even squeeze out a landing. It won't be safe, it won't be comfortable and it certainly won't be efficient.
The average management thinks all they are dealing with is the money of the shareholders and that is what they are trained for. Their most important asset however is the workforce. And they don't know how to deal with it!
I wished there would be a cheaper way to teach the management how wrong they are but I'm afraid .....
Sq
One real important thing must be missing in their training manuals. It is the chapter that teaches them how humans work. Humans as an individual and humans as a group. They work with humans but don't have a clue how to treat with them.
Isn't this a bit like putting me in a new type of aircraft without a course and without a manual? I think I'd get it airborne and I might even squeeze out a landing. It won't be safe, it won't be comfortable and it certainly won't be efficient.
The average management thinks all they are dealing with is the money of the shareholders and that is what they are trained for. Their most important asset however is the workforce. And they don't know how to deal with it!
I wished there would be a cheaper way to teach the management how wrong they are but I'm afraid .....
Sq
Army of One...........
If it's any consolation, there are hundereds who feel EXACTLY the same as you, working for NATS (UK)......a completely fed up work force (to say the least !!!)
If it's any consolation, there are hundereds who feel EXACTLY the same as you, working for NATS (UK)......a completely fed up work force (to say the least !!!)
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At TWA, we busted our butts to save a penny--in order to save the company. Now, at AA, everything the CAL pilot is doing to hurt the company--is in the manual!
You can run the APU from touchdown to takeoff, you can alter your cruise speed, you can configure as early as you want, you can wait to write up items till the last minute, call in sick late...etc.
It seems AA is set up to operate in the least effecient manner possible. But at least the Harvard MBA's know how to mistreat the employees. It is amazing that examples of good employee relations go unnoticed while they spend every waking moment trying to figure out how to screw the employees out of a penny.
"The floggings will continue until morale improves."TC
You can run the APU from touchdown to takeoff, you can alter your cruise speed, you can configure as early as you want, you can wait to write up items till the last minute, call in sick late...etc.
It seems AA is set up to operate in the least effecient manner possible. But at least the Harvard MBA's know how to mistreat the employees. It is amazing that examples of good employee relations go unnoticed while they spend every waking moment trying to figure out how to screw the employees out of a penny.
"The floggings will continue until morale improves."TC
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Stress Control
My union dues are automatically taken out of my pay. We have elected pilots on committees who engage the bean counters on work issues. There is no glamor or company loyalty involved. We don't get what we think we deserve, we only get what we negotiate. And that's it. We live and work by our contract.
I fly from point A to point B, one day at a time, for a negotiated, contractual fee. We operate by FAA rules and by negotiated company rules and according to negotiated company policy. That's it. I'm not busy getting a living, I am living. I think that there is room for lots of improvement in our pay and in our working conditions. No doubt, we deserve a better contract, but I'm not going to taxi at 4 Kts nor run the APU needlessly, nor fly with extended flaps longer, nor fly at less than LRC. Just because we have idiot bean counters does not cause me to be less professional or less dignified. Besides, it's extra work and more stressful trying to operate a jet outside the prescribed operating envelope.
In order to be happy one has to eliminate wants. Because people die in this endless pursuit of getting and wanting more.
I fly from point A to point B, one day at a time, for a negotiated, contractual fee. We operate by FAA rules and by negotiated company rules and according to negotiated company policy. That's it. I'm not busy getting a living, I am living. I think that there is room for lots of improvement in our pay and in our working conditions. No doubt, we deserve a better contract, but I'm not going to taxi at 4 Kts nor run the APU needlessly, nor fly with extended flaps longer, nor fly at less than LRC. Just because we have idiot bean counters does not cause me to be less professional or less dignified. Besides, it's extra work and more stressful trying to operate a jet outside the prescribed operating envelope.
In order to be happy one has to eliminate wants. Because people die in this endless pursuit of getting and wanting more.
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A well written piece, I have a renewed admiration for the rank and file at COA. Apparently we have no ex-Eastern pilots on this board, as I posted Sweet Sixteen and it was promptly censured. In the U.S. a flight is considered on time if it departs within 15 minutes of its scheduled time. Sweet Sixteen is a union activity (not necessarily endorsed) of delaying the flight one minute beyond, with the implication that on-time departures are published quarterly by the FAA. It may be that we can expect such gamesmanship in the near future from our brothers at COA. Sorry if the previous deleted post was a bit recondite, but if you ever hear sweet sixteen thats the meaning, guess you dont have it over there.
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Amazing, just read this thread as an outsider, deliberately sabotaging your company, throwing your toys out of the cot! Grow up do, how do you expect anyone to view this profession with any respect. Why do pilots think that the world revolves around them, that everyone is out to get them and that airlines exist for their benefit? The day of three dimensional sat nav and fully automatic aeroplanes is not far off boys and girls, then the 'beancounters' will fly them from the ground, perhaps not literally but the writing is on the wall.
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Carruthers - You seem very confused. Go away and come back when you have given it a little thought. You are not qualified to make any comments on this thread!
'...how do you expect anyone to view this profession with any respect.'
You can make that comment, but expect us to respect our management?
Nobody is sabotaging any company. We are paid to take aeroplanes from A to B. That is what we are doing. Most of the company's money/time saving tricks are done by the pilots. You can go out of your way to do it, but what is the point. We are paid not a lot more than a while a go, but expected to do a lot more...
'...how do you expect anyone to view this profession with any respect.'
You can make that comment, but expect us to respect our management?
Nobody is sabotaging any company. We are paid to take aeroplanes from A to B. That is what we are doing. Most of the company's money/time saving tricks are done by the pilots. You can go out of your way to do it, but what is the point. We are paid not a lot more than a while a go, but expected to do a lot more...
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"... most of the company's money/time saving tricks are done by the pilots..."
Well yes, some are, but most "money/time saving tricks" are, in actual fact, accomplished by astute financial management...fuel price hedging is but one good example.
Gosh, some pilots here sure do seem to have an exhaulted opinion of themselves. As Cathay Pacific has recently demonstrated...crowing cockerals today, feather dusters tomorrow, as in 49+ bye bye.
Well yes, some are, but most "money/time saving tricks" are, in actual fact, accomplished by astute financial management...fuel price hedging is but one good example.
Gosh, some pilots here sure do seem to have an exhaulted opinion of themselves. As Cathay Pacific has recently demonstrated...crowing cockerals today, feather dusters tomorrow, as in 49+ bye bye.
N4790P
Interesting work ethics here. Surely if you accept your salary, you are duty bound to do your best for your company.
If you dont agree with company polices, you can vote with your feet.
(There are many, many directives within my company that I disagree with, but to deliberately compromise the company no, thats really quite unethical).
If you dont agree with company polices, you can vote with your feet.
(There are many, many directives within my company that I disagree with, but to deliberately compromise the company no, thats really quite unethical).
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>>>Interesting work ethics here.<<<
the job gets done, but the problems that one encounters aren't proactively solved? ever had an insurance claim denied repeatedly?
>>>Surely if you accept your salary<<<
don't call me shirley!
ever had your company violate your contract repeated?
>>>but to deliberately compromise the company no, thats really quite unethical<<<
you didn't read very well, did you. nobody is compromising anything, no ethics are being violated, just watching ironies unfold, without leading to a better way, it gets quite interesting at times!
the job gets done, but the problems that one encounters aren't proactively solved? ever had an insurance claim denied repeatedly?
>>>Surely if you accept your salary<<<
don't call me shirley!
ever had your company violate your contract repeated?
>>>but to deliberately compromise the company no, thats really quite unethical<<<
you didn't read very well, did you. nobody is compromising anything, no ethics are being violated, just watching ironies unfold, without leading to a better way, it gets quite interesting at times!
ZFT: Welcome to the US airline environment. I'm not with Continental and have no idea what is happening there. Anybody who quits an airline job (it is the case with FAs, mechanics, ramp personnel...) gives up their salary and seniority, unless they are brand new. Many, if not most pilots, could easily lose between 20 and 80& of their salaries or more if they impulsively or not, went to another company as a new hire who always has no seniority, until many more (maybe hundreds) pilots are hired after you. There must be states in the US, near all major airline crewbases, where a home mortgage or a child's education can be reduced on a whim by these percentages and with no questions asked? Interesting concept and quite new to me. And I also did not know that major airlines are always hiring.
Seniority determines where you are based, what aircraft and seat you can hold, can you fly on stndby/reserve or know your monthly schedule in advance, whether you are gone on your family members' birthdays, Christimas etc, home for any full weekends. Is this not how seniority determines one's private life (some are thinking "well, you guys all knew this when you got hired-blah, blah, blah..."). Not to mention vacations also unavailable from spring through fall, sometimes for years when the economy has slowed for a while.
Our salaries never go with us, as might happen with some management or consulting jobs.
Pprune certainly seems to attract many laymen "experts" on the airline profession, whose opinions are based only on theoretical knowledge (Microsoft aviation with a "Force Feedback" control stick and machine gun/.3o mm cannon buttons?) or hearsay, who have never flown for an airline, and therefore have no comprehension of what the working pilots' lives or careers consist of. Even those who are/were military pilots (government service at an artificially low salary) have no understanding of a civilian pilot lifestyle or the airline environment, unless their airline went under or he/she gets laid off and can rejoin the military for a tour.
Those who have the required experience can always apply and try the profession out for a while.
Seniority determines where you are based, what aircraft and seat you can hold, can you fly on stndby/reserve or know your monthly schedule in advance, whether you are gone on your family members' birthdays, Christimas etc, home for any full weekends. Is this not how seniority determines one's private life (some are thinking "well, you guys all knew this when you got hired-blah, blah, blah..."). Not to mention vacations also unavailable from spring through fall, sometimes for years when the economy has slowed for a while.
Our salaries never go with us, as might happen with some management or consulting jobs.
Pprune certainly seems to attract many laymen "experts" on the airline profession, whose opinions are based only on theoretical knowledge (Microsoft aviation with a "Force Feedback" control stick and machine gun/.3o mm cannon buttons?) or hearsay, who have never flown for an airline, and therefore have no comprehension of what the working pilots' lives or careers consist of. Even those who are/were military pilots (government service at an artificially low salary) have no understanding of a civilian pilot lifestyle or the airline environment, unless their airline went under or he/she gets laid off and can rejoin the military for a tour.
Those who have the required experience can always apply and try the profession out for a while.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 10th Jun 2002 at 05:18.
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Well 411a now we all know where you are coming from. What a dirty little yob remark "49+ bye bye" is. You are just another greedy airline manager happily stuffing the troops as usual and if you aren't then you are a sad lurker with a sick envy of airline pilots. I don't think I've ever seen a more repugnant post on this reporting point board.
Dont think you can creep off and enjoy the satisfaction of having wound me or other airline pilots up, for in reality you have not: you have just revealed your true colours for all to see: yellow.
Good luck to all at Cathay, Aer Lingus and shortly, our own little corner of OneWorld.
Dont think you can creep off and enjoy the satisfaction of having wound me or other airline pilots up, for in reality you have not: you have just revealed your true colours for all to see: yellow.
Good luck to all at Cathay, Aer Lingus and shortly, our own little corner of OneWorld.
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Censored again eh?
Fine, I can play that game.
Censor me again if you please, and side with anarchism PPRuNe, but I will keep this up, and I will continue to respond.
Here then is an attempt at a finer prose, and as damning a response as I can manage in the 5 minutes available to me.
Do remember to check for typos readers, and pass on the corrigendums forthwith.
We musn't have the supposed lower classes getting away with making fine points, albeit with unrestrained anger, without advice on spelling and/or anger management courses that really should be presented to the unprincipled respondents such as Captain N (oh dear should I have said that?) who wilfully undo what their contracts otherwise state is a requirement of employment - simply that of diligence and representation towards the employers commercial goals, commonly known these days as a mission statement.
To wit then, my observation is this:
The originator of this thread was obviously heartfelt, but it is not immediately obvious that he/she/it was serious.
Do let us know dear chap.
The respondents, such as Captain N, have a dangerously anarchistic perspective that borders on disbelief.
I am a Captain of a national carrier, have been for 6 years, so it is with interest that I note the second reposte to this 3rd page attempting to discredit the initial page 3 writer by saying he's not qualified to comment, supposedly because the guy is not aviation oriented - hell, I don't know?
Well I am, and I say to you buddy, loud and clear, that I am amazed that there are blokes out there who actually support this Army of One perspective, this openly divisive, anarchistic, poorly timed, egocentric and damning position.
Get out of that cockpit as you have, by a legally binding agreement you made when signing on, no right to be there if you wish to corrupt, wilfully, the commercial enterprise that employs you in good faith.
And you damn well better make sure you are never, ever found out as being the poster of such tripe, such dangerous, legally untenuous, tripe.
Be warned.
Fine, I can play that game.
Censor me again if you please, and side with anarchism PPRuNe, but I will keep this up, and I will continue to respond.
Here then is an attempt at a finer prose, and as damning a response as I can manage in the 5 minutes available to me.
Do remember to check for typos readers, and pass on the corrigendums forthwith.
We musn't have the supposed lower classes getting away with making fine points, albeit with unrestrained anger, without advice on spelling and/or anger management courses that really should be presented to the unprincipled respondents such as Captain N (oh dear should I have said that?) who wilfully undo what their contracts otherwise state is a requirement of employment - simply that of diligence and representation towards the employers commercial goals, commonly known these days as a mission statement.
To wit then, my observation is this:
The originator of this thread was obviously heartfelt, but it is not immediately obvious that he/she/it was serious.
Do let us know dear chap.
The respondents, such as Captain N, have a dangerously anarchistic perspective that borders on disbelief.
I am a Captain of a national carrier, have been for 6 years, so it is with interest that I note the second reposte to this 3rd page attempting to discredit the initial page 3 writer by saying he's not qualified to comment, supposedly because the guy is not aviation oriented - hell, I don't know?
Well I am, and I say to you buddy, loud and clear, that I am amazed that there are blokes out there who actually support this Army of One perspective, this openly divisive, anarchistic, poorly timed, egocentric and damning position.
Get out of that cockpit as you have, by a legally binding agreement you made when signing on, no right to be there if you wish to corrupt, wilfully, the commercial enterprise that employs you in good faith.
And you damn well better make sure you are never, ever found out as being the poster of such tripe, such dangerous, legally untenuous, tripe.
Be warned.
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I have no love of bean counters, however I am concerned that any pilot should fly when sick, cover up for ops errors or make the passengers unconfortable in order to maximise profit for the share holders.
This was apparently perfectly acceptable when you were being treated as you felt you deserved, but now you seem to have been driven to act properly by the bean counters. Well at least the passengers should be more comfortable and safer under you new policy.
And I thought it was the bean counters who caused all the trouble!
This was apparently perfectly acceptable when you were being treated as you felt you deserved, but now you seem to have been driven to act properly by the bean counters. Well at least the passengers should be more comfortable and safer under you new policy.
And I thought it was the bean counters who caused all the trouble!
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Interesting thread.
You know, before going into what I do now I was in commercial aviation for over fifteen years. Now I'm an IFA (Independent Financial Adviser). During the course of my work I speak to a very wide variety of individuals on a quite intimate basis. And the one thing that comes out, on every occasion, is that no-one I talk to 'feels appreciated'. Every occupation...you name it. Surgeons, Teachers, Pilots, Businessmen........... they all say the same thing "of course the problem with this job is that we're just not appreciated". In fact I haven't found one single occupation that actually feels appreciated.
It stikes me that that is the reason that Adolf Hitler did so well (for a few years at least). He made everyone if Germany feel appreciated. Good God, if you were a woman who had had more than two kids you would get a certifcate with an eagle on it saying that you were a 'mother of the Fatherland' or whatever.
The labourers who built the roads regaularly took part in parades, with silver shovels over their shoulders, martching to a brass band.
The problem nowadays is that it all just comes down to money. And our lives are run by the most appalling little sh*** who's only claim to fame is that they can screw the maximum of work out of the rest of us for the minimum amount of money.
Come back Adolf, all is forgiven.
You know, before going into what I do now I was in commercial aviation for over fifteen years. Now I'm an IFA (Independent Financial Adviser). During the course of my work I speak to a very wide variety of individuals on a quite intimate basis. And the one thing that comes out, on every occasion, is that no-one I talk to 'feels appreciated'. Every occupation...you name it. Surgeons, Teachers, Pilots, Businessmen........... they all say the same thing "of course the problem with this job is that we're just not appreciated". In fact I haven't found one single occupation that actually feels appreciated.
It stikes me that that is the reason that Adolf Hitler did so well (for a few years at least). He made everyone if Germany feel appreciated. Good God, if you were a woman who had had more than two kids you would get a certifcate with an eagle on it saying that you were a 'mother of the Fatherland' or whatever.
The labourers who built the roads regaularly took part in parades, with silver shovels over their shoulders, martching to a brass band.
The problem nowadays is that it all just comes down to money. And our lives are run by the most appalling little sh*** who's only claim to fame is that they can screw the maximum of work out of the rest of us for the minimum amount of money.
Come back Adolf, all is forgiven.