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MH17 down near Donetsk

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MH17 down near Donetsk

Old 17th Jul 2015, 08:36
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Apparently, as yet unpublished video footage appears to show the immediate aftermath of the downing of MH17
I do not know how they define "published", but that video and the statement "Who’s opened a corridor for them to fly over here?" has been around the web for a year...
The more intresting detail is that the people on the video all believe they have shot down a fighter after it shot down the airliner. If I understand correct, they search for a shot down ukranian Suchoi which shot down a russian airliner, and are totally confused to find something different. They also talk about parachutes and search for people who bailed out. Obviously no fighter crash site has been found. Did the international investigators search for one? Anyway, the damage to the aircraft is very clearly not caused by a fighter gun. All looks like statements of uninformed, confused real amateurs, not too much to learn from that.
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Old 17th Jul 2015, 09:38
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I'm not hating on Russia here, but why oh why would anyone in the Ukraine shoot down a commercial flight over their own territory?
That's an excellent point!

Let me start by saying that I'm neither Russian, nor Ukrainian and I'm not even arguing in the separatists defense.

However, as a pilot who has regularly overflow that particular area of the Ukraine and who is primarily concerned about aviation safety and not politics, I really wonder to what extent the Ukrainian government has used the civil airlines above 30000' as a human shield in order to launch their own attacks on the separatists.

So, no, the Ukrainians would obviously not shoot down a commercial flight over their own territory, however any shooting down of any civil airliner over their territory would only a cynical win-win situation for them; blame the Russians, blame the separatists, and use this as a very convenient propaganda tool to get more kudos, $$'s and €€'s from the west! Literally like manna falling from the skies.

So now you have a situation where IMHO civil aviation has been (ab)used by the Ukrainians in a totally sick game of chicken: on one hand you have the Ukrainian Air Force which was very active in the Eastern Ukraine in the weeks prior to the downing of MH17, and on the other hand you have the separatists (who have no air force of their own) were actively shooting at Ukrainian Air Force aircraft with the huge risk of eventually shooting down a civil jetliner.

The ENTIRE airspace in that area should have been CLOSED for ALL CIVIL AVIATION by the Ukrainian authorities, not just the airspace up to 30000' and thus use the civil aircraft >30000' as human shields.

When I see images of a soldier holding up a teddy bear from one of the MH17 passengers, it reminds me of that image of that little scared boy standing next to Saddam Hussein who was using him as a human shield:

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Old 17th Jul 2015, 09:52
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Originally Posted by LLuCCiFeR View Post
The ENTIRE airspace in that area should have been CLOSED for ALL CIVIL AVIATION
Should airspace over Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan etc. be closed too?
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Old 17th Jul 2015, 10:08
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"Should airspace over Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan etc. be closed too?"

Yes.

How (in)competent are the ISIS? Who knows if they have few SAMs?
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Old 17th Jul 2015, 10:22
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Anniversary

Today it is appropriate to reflect on the tragic consequences of the murder of all 298 souls on MH17
Of the 298 dead 80 were children!

Every victim left behind family and friends who will forever be traumatized by the events of this day last year

Whoever perpetrated this act of mass murder should pause today and consider coming forward to acknowledge culpability.
This would be a courageous course of action and would give a little comfort to those left behind
RIP
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Old 17th Jul 2015, 10:52
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Should airspace over Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan etc. be closed too?
The Ukrainian authorities were fully aware that the separatists had access to BUK missiles (range by some estimates: 72000 feet!) so by deliberately keeping the Eastern Ukrainian airspace open >30000 feet makes them just as guilty as the person who pulled the trigger.

Anyone who has ever tried to separate two fighting dogs knows: these dogs are at 'war' with each other and will bite at anything that moves and think about the consequences later.

A cool and calculated move in which the Ukrainian authorities deliberately allowed civil aviation into an area where trigger-happy separatists were shooting at Ukrainian Air Force aircraft is IMHO criminal negligence, and the people and politicians that allowed this human shield to be in place should be tried at the International War Crimes Tribunal in The Hague together with with the person who pressed the "launch" button.

Again, contrary to The Ukraine, EU, US and Russia, I do NOT have a political axe to grind or a propaganda war to win: I'm only thinking about AVIATION and my PERSONAL safety!

p.s. FYI Lena.Kiev, Syrian and Iraqi airspace is largely a no-go area at the moment, most Europe-Middle East traffic is rerouted to the east via Iran and to the south via Saudi Arabia. With regards to Afghanistan: contrary to Ukrainian airspace, Afghanistan's airspace is heavily patrolled by Coalition aircraft who have a total air supremacy. Although it's of course impossible to rule out a single nutcase with a Stinger, the situation on the ground and in the air in Afghanistan is largely stable, which is again in large contrast to the situation in the Eastern Ukraine in July 2014 which was a full blown civil war!
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Old 17th Jul 2015, 13:40
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Russian hybrid occupants boasted that they grabbed an Ukrainian Buk. However, Ukrainian authorities were fully aware that no usable Buk was grabbed. All the news about the grab were with pre-war photos. The TELAR in the grabbed division was unusable. Here it is (just below the + at the center). In Google Earth you can see that it's in the same place with the top rotated to the same angle since May 30, 2014 to the last satellite photo (September 3). Here and here you can see how it looks close up - long ago taken apart for spare parts.

The Buk TELAR which shot down MH17 and its crew were from Kursk, Russia, covertly moved from Russia to Ukraine in the morning of July 17, 2014 (the shootdown day). The vehicle towed on a low-loader was tentatively recognized as a Buk by a Donetsk local at 10:31 Kiev summer time, with more confidence in Torez at 12:08 Kiev time. The Ukrainian authorities closed all heights over occupied territory the same day in the evening. Do you suppose that in such situation authorities in other countries would be more swift?
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Old 17th Jul 2015, 14:47
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I just read through this entire thread and my conclusion is: what a load of rubbish. Without genuine Dutch Safety Board report(s) almost everything here is just noise and propaganda spread by wannabees and vested interests, and boy are there a lot of them on display here. Most of the stuff peddled as facts are little more than self-serving hyperbole and/or deliberate obfuscation.

Given how important this investigation is, it is paramount to wait for the DSB's findings before coming to any conclusions. Anyone who has already decided is either fooling themselves or up to no good.
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Old 17th Jul 2015, 16:18
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The Ukrainian authorities closed all heights over occupied territory the same day in the evening. Do you suppose that in such situation authorities in other countries would be more swift?
Perhaps, but it would be useless to speculate about what other countries might do or might have done. We're talking here about the situation in the Ukraine in July 2014.

Fact is that the airspace was closed way too late. Fact is also that the 30000 feet limit was totally unrealistic, unless of course one deliberately wants civil airlines to overfly an area of conflict to act as human shields for military operations <30000 feet. With the kind of weaponry and the military capabilities of both the Ukraine and Russia, it was only a matter of time before an escalation like this would occur.

My question remains: what were the Ukrainian political, tactical, strategical and perhaps economical (overflight fees) motivations behind keeping the airspace >30000 feet open for way too long?

Again, I'm absolutely not rushing to the Don-bass separatist's or the Russian's defense here, but I'm merely wondering what has led to this tragedy and in how far the safety of civil aviation has been compromised in order to push a military, geopolitical and propaganda agenda.

Grainy satellite images of a destroyed BUK, movements of a truck with a low-loader, claims of how rapidly the Ukraine closed the airspace after the downing of MH17 or any other propaganda from either side does not help civil aviation pilots who overfly conflict areas. As a pilot I'm very worried that this investigation will solely be used for propaganda purposes and only focuses on "who-dun-nit" instead of the entire political and military constellation that made this possible.

Let's be honest, neither the passengers of MH17, nor the pro-Russian separatists in the Eastern Ukraine have benefited from this tragedy. The only winner is the government in Kiev (who conveniently started a ground offensive in the confusion after the downing of MH17) thanks to the, in my opinion, criminal negligence of the Ukrainian authorities to keep the airspace >30000 open for civil use.

The Ukrainian authorities closed all heights over occupied territory the same day in the evening.
Obviously...
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Old 17th Jul 2015, 19:03
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Originally Posted by LLuCCiFeR View Post
With the kind of weaponry and the military capabilities of both the Ukraine and Russia, it was only a matter of time before an escalation like this would occur.
It's easy to say in hindsight.
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Old 17th Jul 2015, 22:51
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This came out today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bPQuSj9YtQ
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Old 18th Jul 2015, 01:34
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This video needs no explanation,or opinions. Thanks for making it public,today.
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Old 18th Jul 2015, 02:05
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I don't think the truth about what happened to MH17 (and MH370) will ever be known,not publicly anyway.
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Old 18th Jul 2015, 02:39
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As long as it remains as a political truth,we will never have the evidence. Conclusions may be then drawn by that. Sad day,yesterday for all those concerned.
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Old 18th Jul 2015, 03:52
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Originally Posted by Mike-Bracknell View Post
One minute at the very beginning is not MH17 but Ukrainian army's An-26 on July 14, 2014 stricken to an engine with MANPADS at altitude 3.5-4.5 km (not 6+).
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Old 18th Jul 2015, 12:13
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@ Lena.Kiev

It's easy to say in hindsight.
Well, that's a bit easy isn't it? After all, the Ukrainians could have realized that after the downing of The Siberian Airlines Flight 1812, a mistake can easily be made with very grave consequences.

With your very simplistic logic one could also argue that "it's easy to say in hindsight" that the BUK crew made a catastrophic mistake that fatal day in Julie 2014? So that's it? We just forget about it then? When the pro-Russian separatists "in hindsight" make a mistake then this should, rightfully so, be dealt with in the harshest possible manner, but if the Ukrainian authorities plays with the lives of hundreds of innocent passengers sitting in a 777 at FL330 over a zone of conflict with all sorts of weaponry being supplied by Russia and alleged Russian troop movements across the border, then this is "easy to say in hindsight" and brushed under the carpet?!

Once again, I'm absolutely not defending the BUK crew who most probably shot down MH17, but I'm also not seeing the Ukrainians as being the only "good guys" in this MH17 tragedy for keeping the airspace >32000 feet open in order to use civil jetliners as human shields for their military air force operations below.

I'm sick and tired of the one-sided reporting and the enormous double standard, especially since we're dealing with flight safety here, and not with politics!
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Old 18th Jul 2015, 19:34
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Seems to me the report does nothing but restate the obvious.
A BUK missile strike proves zip when both sides operate them.
The ATC conversations and the various radar pictures from the Ukraine, the NATO and the Russian monitors might help circumscribe the 'conspiracy space'.
Absent those, I see nothing to be gained.


Shame though that the inquiry commission seems so willing to allow itself to be blinkered.
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Old 18th Jul 2015, 19:56
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Ukrainian president wrote yesterday (I translate):
Netherlands (as the most suffered) finished investigation of MH17 tragedy. Preliminary results evidence that the aircraft was shot down with a missile from Russia, by trained crew from Russia and by order of Russian military.
Ukrainian deputy prime minister, the head of Ukrainian committee on MH17 crash investigation said that Netherlands will publish results of technical investigation in the last third of August.
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Old 19th Jul 2015, 19:34
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And the president of ukraine knows better than anybody else ..... Whatever he says is the ultimate truth ..... Shall we take it for granted, dear Lena from Kiev ?

LLuCCiFeR - my respect to you for professional approach and real deep understanding of the matter, which one doesnt find here very often.
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Old 19th Jul 2015, 19:45
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No, I'll read final DSB report myself.
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