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MH17 down near Donetsk

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MH17 down near Donetsk

Old 30th Mar 2015, 08:48
  #1581 (permalink)  
 
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>looking at the shape

DSB has 500 fragments to study and they said they focus on 25 of them.
Those fragments have come from outside of the plane. It's also confirmed that those are not bullet fragments.

These fragments that came recently to public are extra.

(pro-russia Cyber Berkut team "leaked" some DSB to Kiev sent "details" of DSB's fragments, they indicated M1 missile that bot Ukraine and Russia use. In reality, also some M1-2 missiles seems to have the same warhead.)

>Numerous fragmenting missiles were made with similar H shape fragments.

Perhaps, but only BUK was seen on the area. And the missile came from separatist's area.

>The area was bombarded with mortars and assorted rocketry and missiles for several months between July 17

It is easy to tell the difference of BUK vs things like Grad fragments. Grad warhead fragments was also found on the plane debris, by Akkermans, IIRC.

>this time WITHOUT photographing them.

They have been photographed. Also by Akkermans.
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 00:29
  #1582 (permalink)  
 
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How does any one know where is the "separatist area" where "Kiev-controlled"? They only settled more or less where is who - following the 2nd Minsk agreement.

In summer it was a chess-board of pockets. Moreover, on the maps published - one and same village was counted on maps as "our" or "enemy's" by both sides simultaneously! Because Kiev troops moved in hectic manner, private battalions moved where they wished, where and how separatists moved no one knows at all - and all sides lied! tall lies regarding what they "have just captured". Where they have defeated everyone flat out o)

There has never been one decent map to trust where is who throughout whole summer.

Proof - poor OSCE - based in a hotel in Donetsk - couldn't venture out to the crash site for days. They ventured, returned, began anew, being shelled, along the route, by hell knows who.
Malaysian team, originally based in Kiev, ventured to reach Donetsk 2 weeks after the catastrophe, settled in a hotel in Donetsk as well.
Likewise, they couldn't get to the crash site, even, accompanied by all separatist leaders, and Malaysians had "guarantees" from both sides, that all is fine and no one would touch them.
I read their memoirs in summer when they recalled a blast into a car in front of them on the road, and that they had to turn back to Donetsk, afraid to continue. That was a separatist car ahead of them, by the way, Malaysians were in the centre of a "procession" of vehicles. Tucked into the centre by separatists, for safety.

No one could drive there safely, be you a Kievan or a separatist, because there are different brands of each kind, each of own mind and command.
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 00:50
  #1583 (permalink)  
 
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IMHO neither side needed a BUK.

Kiev had nothing to shoot at, by a BUK.
Russia never bombed Ukraine from air.
Separatists had nothing in air at all. No "aviation" :o)

What to shoot at? Birds?

Separatists didn't need a Buk either. They have shot 24 Ukrainian airplanes very successfully, before the Boeing tragedy, having no BUKs.
By "conventional" arms , in their disposal. In the range - from fighter jets to large transport airplanes, carrying Ukrainian military personnel.

What for would separatists need a BUK?

BUK, as I understood it, fires at high altitudes, 10,000 metres, exactly where passenger aviation flies.

Ukrainian military planes flew 5,000-7,000 metres, within the range of the existing separatist arms. Proven by the loss of it all.

Who, in his right mind, would take aim at 10,000 metres where there is, technically, nothing military above Ukraine?

Whoever (if it were a BUK from the ground) took the aim high up there - what was in mind? To find there - what? on earth
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 04:55
  #1584 (permalink)  
 
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What arms capable of 7000 m?
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 10:14
  #1585 (permalink)  
 
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JITMH17.com - text in Russian an English; video with Russian sound and English subtitles. That website is linked from Dutch prosecutors' and police's websites. The video contains new (not published earlier) phone taps. New points of the Buk TELAR route. Buk is now officially the main version.

http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2015/03/30/...-separatisten/

http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2015/04/01/...itietape-mh17/
(Russian translation)

Phone taps published earlier: on July 18, on July 25. On March 30 Westerbeke confirmed them as not fake, despite widespread disbelief and attempts to discredit them:
Hoofdofficier Fred Westerbeke sprak maandag van “authentieke opnames”, die “uit-en-te-na zijn onderzocht”, zo zei hij op televisie.
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 14:59
  #1586 (permalink)  
 
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Dear Lena, I am far from terroristic circles :o), I don't know what shoots at 7,000 metres.
I vaguely think it's called "SAM". As the blogger from Finland has just pointed out.
Something that looks like spears and is carried on the shoulder.
(my this idea was formed on various movies :o) and . news. from "hot" locations, in this planet)

Additionally, I think that separatists downed all Ukrainian military aviation there were NOT so high up in sky, but in immediate approach, when fighter jets were bombing them, in immediate view.

The big transport plane (able to fly high) was definitely shot when it was landing in the airport.

Ukraine never closed its sky for passenger traffic, didn't stop own, also - Russian airlines flew safely over Ukraine. Aeroflot certainly did, many int'l companies did.
I think there was no BUK in the game.
All "activities" went low, over roof tops.

Last edited by Alice025; 2nd Apr 2015 at 15:24.
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 15:38
  #1587 (permalink)  
 
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What is carried on the shoulder cannot reach 7000 m.
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 15:53
  #1588 (permalink)  
 
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Russia has many defects but things are. organised here. say, controlled :o)

If Putin authorized issue of a BUK to Donbass separatists, he'd surely accompany that by a whistle to own civil aviation. not by a whistle. by an order :o) - to avoid the conflict zone in planning their routes.

Any excuse would be used, easily, to cover up the real reason.

And, by the way, other world airlines would then follow Russian suit. Since many governments are used, by now, to read what Kremlin means - between the lines.

Nothing like that took place. To me that means the BUK system joining the fighting - if it were - was very un-planned for
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 15:57
  #1589 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Alice025 View Post
I think there was no BUK in the game.
Read: in English or in Russian, look at photos, watch videos. Also read the official webpage (in Russian and English) of the Joint Investigation Team, watch the video.
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 16:02
  #1590 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Alice025 View Post
If Putin authorized issue of a BUK to Donbass separatists, he'd surely accompany that by a whistle to own civil aviation.
A version why he didn't. But at first read here.
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 18:22
  #1591 (permalink)  
 
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Conspiracy theories Lena, come on. I am not scared of Pu, he was "planning to kill Russians", eh? And "shot down Malaysians, instead"?

We know perfectly well how and in what :o0 powers to be. say. can be bad for us. Have got vast experience :oO Trained population.

Being deadly is not included in the list of scares :o)
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 18:32
  #1592 (permalink)  
 
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The "Joint Investigation Team" material you quote is no more than that -
"Call for witnesses

An international joint investigation team, in which Australia, Belgium, Malaysia, the Netherlands and Ukraine take part, is conducting a criminal investigation into the downing of flight MH17 on the 17th of July 2014 and is examining different scenarios. The focus of one scenario is that the MH17 was shot down by a BUK missile system. We are looking for witnesses who might..."

It is not the body in charge of investigation. ICAO didn't appoint them :o), sorry. ICAO appointed Dutch Investigation Board.

What you quote is a friendly gathering of specialists from different countries, headed by the new General Prosecutor of Ukraine.
The new man, freshly appointed, who promised, in your newspapers, to bring proof of Russian involvement in the crash "within 1 month time". To Ukrainian public.

Sure he looks for evidence.

It might be the Russian saying "Fear has big eyes", a syndrome, in Kiev. Ukrainians were scared 26 times exactly, in the past year, someone has counted :o), the occasions when your top brass and country . various. VIPs - told Ukrainian public that "Russia will invade us tomorrow".
Any one will get scared after that, to live constantly on such nerves, no wonder.

Last edited by Alice025; 2nd Apr 2015 at 18:47.
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Old 2nd Apr 2015, 18:57
  #1593 (permalink)  
 
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Dutch Safety Board (DSB) according to ICAO rules investigates cause of the crash but not whom to blame:
http://onderzoeksraad.nl/en/onderzoe...tigating#fasen
The Dutch Board of Safety will not make any statements with regard to blame or liability and these issues will not form part of the investigation.
Joint Investigation Team (JIT) is headed by Dutch prosecutor Fred Westerbeke, not an Ukrainian. JIT conducts criminal investigation (whom to blame, for criminal court trial). I'm not aware of any other criminal investigation about MH17.

Originally Posted by Alice025 View Post
The "Joint Investigation Team" material you quote is no more than that -
"Call for witnesses
Watch the video there. Attentively. Before you write anything more.

Is your goal to ignore replies and flood this forum?
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Old 15th Apr 2015, 07:43
  #1594 (permalink)  
 
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the weird case of MH17

This MH17 case is one of the most weird ever seen or heard of.

First of all, if the Dutch Investigative team has found the fragments inside the bodies of the pilots, this case should have solved a long time ago. At least the type of the missile used or whether the accident was caused by the air to air missile should be known already.

As it is impossible to read all the post of this thread, I'm quickly adding this information from the German Bundestag for your information. It's in German. However, you can easily use Google or Yandex translator. The link first:
Deutscher Bundestag - Erkenntnisse zu Flug MH 17
(if the link is incorrect, you may always contact the German Bundestag by yourselves.)

Erkenntnisse zu Flug MH17 ( the titel)

... Hätten zwei Awacs-Auklärungsflugzeuge der NATO, die sich Zum Zeitpunkt des Absturzes im Polnischen beziehungsweise...

Radaraufzeichnungen des Fluges mh-17 verlieren sich um 14.52 Uhr Mitteleuropäische zeit...
...
..Aufklärer sudem signale von einem flugabwehrraketensystem sowie ein weiteres durch Awacs nicht zuzuordnendendes Radarsignal...

Das flugabwehrsystem sei automatisiert als "Surface to Air Missile" SA-3 klassifiert worden

What does the above mean?
The quick and not good translation. There were two Nato Awacs planes. Those planes automatically identified three(?) radar signals: One from the plane MH17, one from the Radar of Sa-3 Missile system and one unknown Radar signal!!

Could this unkown radar signal be a fighter jet? (Transponder turned off)

It is weird that the radar signal of MH17 was lost at 14.52. According to other sources (Reuters,etc.) the time point of accident was 13.20. local time. (i.e 15.20)

Also please note that according to certain sources, the Malaysian plane was expected to enter into the Russian air space exactly at 13.20. (Please confirm this)
However, the plane was late and it was about 50 kilometers from the Russian border at the time of the accident. The plane was proceeding towards Russia.

if you read the article by Robert Parry: He is talking about SA-6 missiles referring to the US Intel.
https://consortiumnews.com/2015/01/1...-17-cold-case/

You may remember that In Ukraine at the time point of the accident was arranged the Nato excersise Air Breeze 2014. That's why I believe the Awacs planes were controlling the Ukrainian air space. However, no satellitate data has been published.


Tags: als "Surface to Air Missile" SA-3 klassifiert worden
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Old 15th Apr 2015, 08:00
  #1595 (permalink)  
 
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Conflict Zone Database

Long overdue and sadly costing lives before instigating, ICAO is implementing a Conflict Zone Resource for all to reference.

Here it is but it's still in the set up phase.
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Old 16th Apr 2015, 04:23
  #1596 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks for the link Choks Away. Hopefully this provides for a good tool to work with. However today thousands of airliners fly over conflict areas without a problem, some even work in and out of conflict zones. While reducing the risk of getting shot down, this tool won't remove the possibility totally and to work would need tight co-operation with government intelligence agencies and militaries, some of whom might not be interested in providing information on equipment they might have given to the combatants.

I find it interesting how any website having discussion forums on Ukraine or MH17 is infested with pro-Russian views, clear Russian trolls and foilhat conspiracy theorists implicating CIA, NSA, USA, chemtrails and not to forget the worldwide zionist/fascists conspiracy that is clearly behind this heinous act or repeating the Russian propaganda on SU25's as well as muddying the waters with half truths, misrepresentations and clear lies.

One must be careful when reading the material originating from St.Petersburg troll factories. At first glance it can look quite convincing, but digging into the material shows it to be trash. Unfortunately it's this stuff that is spread in various BB's around the world.
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Old 16th Apr 2015, 05:09
  #1597 (permalink)  
 
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Not, it is not: The statement says that MH17 left the tracking range of the AWACS aircraft at 14.52, not that it was downed then.

Originally Posted by Nobukmissile
It is weird that the radar signal of MH17 was lost at 14.52. According to other sources (Reuters,etc.) the time point of accident was 13.20. local time. (i.e 15.20)
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Old 16th Apr 2015, 20:09
  #1598 (permalink)  
 
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AWACS has a Range about 650km. The Distance from Poland to Horlivka is about 1100km. Use Google Earth to check. It takes 2 Minutes.

„Die Radaraufzeichnungen des Fluges MH-17 verlieren sich um 14.52 Uhr Mitteleuropäische Zeit (12.52UTC) mit Verlassen der MH-17 aus dem Aufklärungsbereich der Awacs-Luftfahrzeuge“,

The Time of cut off CVR + FDR was 13.20.03 UTC.

The same of Sa-3. That was discussed some time ago.

Forget the Story of Fighter Jets.

Last edited by triumph61; 16th Apr 2015 at 20:20.
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Old 2nd Jul 2015, 14:53
  #1599 (permalink)  
 
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BUK, as I understood it, fires at high altitudes, 10,000 metres, exactly where passenger aviation flies.

Ukrainian military planes flew 5,000-7,000 metres, within the range of the existing separatist arms. Proven by the loss of it all.

Who, in his right mind, would take aim at 10,000 metres where there is, technically, nothing military above Ukraine?

Whoever (if it were a BUK from the ground) took the aim high up there - what was in mind? To find there - what? on earth
From a distance of 30km, a plane at 6000m and one at 10000m appear at an angular distance of roughly 8 degrees to the man at the radar. If the 6000m plane is 12km closer (at 18km), they would appear in the same spot, the closer one hiding the higher-up, further-away one. If you're under pressure, that may not be so easy to sort out quickly!
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Old 10th Jul 2015, 07:46
  #1600 (permalink)  
 
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Lena. Kiev

"Watch the video there...... Attentively. Before you write anything more.

Is your goal to ignore replies and flood this forum? "
===========================================

Dear Lena,
do you really believe that SSU reports can be viewed and treated seriously ?
even the former Head of SSU resigned as he couldn't stand it anymore....
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