MH17 down near Donetsk
A_Van wrote
You would be correct not to trust the Russians with that sat imagery? Looks like they edited out a Buk at A1428 to make it appear that the Ukrainians had deployed it. Unfortunately they edited out a disabled Buk that was still in the same position before and after the MH17 tragedy. Naughty Russians!
See following for details and hi-res image of disabled Buk.
Another Malaysian airliner crashed in Ukraine | Page 29 | urban75 forums
See following for images. This is what the Russians captioned the image with.
???????????? ??????? ??????: ???????? «?????» ???????????? ?????????? ????????? ? ???????-????? ???
Whether to trust them or not is rather a matter of religion or social psychology.
See following for details and hi-res image of disabled Buk.
Another Malaysian airliner crashed in Ukraine | Page 29 | urban75 forums
See following for images. This is what the Russians captioned the image with.
July 17. The same position north of Donetsk without anti-missile system "Buk-M1". He is absent. He was taken. What for?
???????????? ??????? ??????: ???????? «?????» ???????????? ?????????? ????????? ? ???????-????? ???
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Correct Take Google Earth 48° 5'54.19"N 37°45'14.44"E
Push at left down The Year, go to left top and change the dates. The BUK have never left this place
The 1.Time at 28.4.2014, last Time 3.Septemer 2014. The Buk never leave its Place. The MoD have manipulated this Sat Pic. Thats Fact.
Thats the Buk
https://drive.google.com/folderview?...lE&usp=sharing
On the left side you can see the blue Roof
Push at left down The Year, go to left top and change the dates. The BUK have never left this place
The 1.Time at 28.4.2014, last Time 3.Septemer 2014. The Buk never leave its Place. The MoD have manipulated this Sat Pic. Thats Fact.
Thats the Buk
https://drive.google.com/folderview?...lE&usp=sharing
On the left side you can see the blue Roof
Last edited by triumph61; 20th Mar 2015 at 21:02.
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Modern BUK missile hit MH17
@ A Van
1. Only if the evidence was handled correctly the results of the RTL nieuws investigation would be admissable in court. I am quite sure that Mr Akkersmans knew how to handle this.
2. Actually, the shrapnel and the warhead were identified as Buk-M1-2
I quote:
According to them the fragment directly belongs to the pay load of a 9M317 BUK missile, the modern version of the BUK 1-2 system. Expert Nicolas De Larrinaga: "From the hour-glass form we can gather all the characteristics of an impact of a 9N314 warhead fragment. This fits perfectly."
According to Wikepedia among others this missile is the SA-17, the improved version of the Buk-M1, which is only used by Russian armed forces.
Further, I don't think it will be easy to gather or create this particular missile fragment, so it is very unlikely Mr Akkermans could get this from another source than the MH17 crash site.
So actually, a very important find, excludes the use of captured Ukraine missiles.
1. Only if the evidence was handled correctly the results of the RTL nieuws investigation would be admissable in court. I am quite sure that Mr Akkersmans knew how to handle this.
2. Actually, the shrapnel and the warhead were identified as Buk-M1-2
I quote:
According to them the fragment directly belongs to the pay load of a 9M317 BUK missile, the modern version of the BUK 1-2 system. Expert Nicolas De Larrinaga: "From the hour-glass form we can gather all the characteristics of an impact of a 9N314 warhead fragment. This fits perfectly."
According to Wikepedia among others this missile is the SA-17, the improved version of the Buk-M1, which is only used by Russian armed forces.
Further, I don't think it will be easy to gather or create this particular missile fragment, so it is very unlikely Mr Akkermans could get this from another source than the MH17 crash site.
So actually, a very important find, excludes the use of captured Ukraine missiles.
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9M317 missiles have much shorter wing chord than 9M38M1: drawing, photo. Which do you see on the video of the TELAR (minus one missile) evacuated back to Russia through Lugansk towards Krasnodon?
As far as I heard, 9M38M1 missiles also contain 9N314 warhead with three types of fragments, one of them shaped like hourglass or butterfly or I-beam (двутавр): photo 1 photo 2. History of design of 9M38M1 and 9N314 and I-beam (двутавр) shaped fragments: (in Russian).
Quite probably, the TELAR was indeed from Buk-M1-2 system. But loaded with 9M38M1 missiles.
As far as I heard, 9M38M1 missiles also contain 9N314 warhead with three types of fragments, one of them shaped like hourglass or butterfly or I-beam (двутавр): photo 1 photo 2. History of design of 9M38M1 and 9N314 and I-beam (двутавр) shaped fragments: (in Russian).
Quite probably, the TELAR was indeed from Buk-M1-2 system. But loaded with 9M38M1 missiles.
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Also now in English
Evidence proving....
Evidence proving....
Today RTLNieuws, a dutch commercial news organization claims to have proof ...
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no proof
I quote:
According to them the fragment directly belongs to the pay load of a 9M317 BUK missile, the modern version of the BUK 1-2 system. Expert Nicolas De Larrinaga: "From the hour-glass form we can gather all the characteristics of an impact of a 9N314 warhead fragment. This fits perfectly."
According to Wikepedia among others this missile is the SA-17, the improved version of the Buk-M1, which is only used by Russian armed forces.
According to them the fragment directly belongs to the pay load of a 9M317 BUK missile, the modern version of the BUK 1-2 system. Expert Nicolas De Larrinaga: "From the hour-glass form we can gather all the characteristics of an impact of a 9N314 warhead fragment. This fits perfectly."
According to Wikepedia among others this missile is the SA-17, the improved version of the Buk-M1, which is only used by Russian armed forces.
To count as anything approaching proof, they would have to eliminate all the other similar rockets it could have come from., Numerous fragmenting missiles were made with similar H shape fragments.
ALL news site "proofs" from The Netherlands have all been aimed at "proving" that it could only have been something currently Russian.
The area was bombarded with mortars and assorted rocketry and missiles for several months between July 17 and mid-November when Akkermans picked up the pieces -- oddly, for a photographer who'd taken 600+ detailed images of the debris, this time WITHOUT photographing them. The Ukrainian Army itself held BUK exercises in the general area on July 16, in response to their own claims two days earlier that one of their planes had been shot down by a Russian fighter.
In any case, the results here will be political, not scientific, and the final report has again been put off, this time until October. Remember Ukraine is in a position to veto any report it does not agree with; whether they do so or not will depend on who the government is around that time, a situation which today is in flux with internal power struggles.
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"The Ukrainian Army itself held BUK exercises in the general area on July 16"
1. The problem here is that, Ukraine didn't have Buk systems near the place from which the missile was launched that hit 777. Trajectory would be different then and so your assumption is not relevant to the reality already. Ukraine forces would have shot the aircraft from behind, given possible set of positions they could chose, but 777 was hit from the nose.
2. Those territories, from which Buk was used, were under separatist control at that time and there was NO way for Ukrainian forces to quietly and quickly got that Buk deep into the separatists territory, made a shot, and then moved the system out.
3. Also, you forgot about images of that Buk with a missing missile on top that surfaced , and which (thanks to many photos with geotags and without) were traced back to the Russian border - simply put, Buks were quickly moved out to the Russian border RIGHT after shit hit the fan on the international stage. Another coincidence, I presume.
4. Local residents reported a loud noise and were seeing a missile flying upwards and to the north-west - that was at the location which separatists were controlling and it which the Buk needed to be in order to hit 777 the way it .
5. There were even photographs of a smoky trail that was left by the missile. Location where those images were shot, matched the location on the updated google map where dark burns in the field are + marks on the ground where heavy equipment was maneuvering and taking positions and it matches the location of the village where locals reported the missile. All that matches the location from which Buk missile needed to be shot in order to match the damage done to the aircraft.
Sorry, but even if every single one of this facts are not that much to get a conclusion, but when they are held together - that pretty much leaves very little chance it to be a non Russian missile.
1. The problem here is that, Ukraine didn't have Buk systems near the place from which the missile was launched that hit 777. Trajectory would be different then and so your assumption is not relevant to the reality already. Ukraine forces would have shot the aircraft from behind, given possible set of positions they could chose, but 777 was hit from the nose.
2. Those territories, from which Buk was used, were under separatist control at that time and there was NO way for Ukrainian forces to quietly and quickly got that Buk deep into the separatists territory, made a shot, and then moved the system out.
3. Also, you forgot about images of that Buk with a missing missile on top that surfaced , and which (thanks to many photos with geotags and without) were traced back to the Russian border - simply put, Buks were quickly moved out to the Russian border RIGHT after shit hit the fan on the international stage. Another coincidence, I presume.
4. Local residents reported a loud noise and were seeing a missile flying upwards and to the north-west - that was at the location which separatists were controlling and it which the Buk needed to be in order to hit 777 the way it .
5. There were even photographs of a smoky trail that was left by the missile. Location where those images were shot, matched the location on the updated google map where dark burns in the field are + marks on the ground where heavy equipment was maneuvering and taking positions and it matches the location of the village where locals reported the missile. All that matches the location from which Buk missile needed to be shot in order to match the damage done to the aircraft.
Sorry, but even if every single one of this facts are not that much to get a conclusion, but when they are held together - that pretty much leaves very little chance it to be a non Russian missile.
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>looking at the shape
DSB has 500 fragments to study and they said they focus on 25 of them.
Those fragments have come from outside of the plane. It's also confirmed that those are not bullet fragments.
These fragments that came recently to public are extra.
(pro-russia Cyber Berkut team "leaked" some DSB to Kiev sent "details" of DSB's fragments, they indicated M1 missile that bot Ukraine and Russia use. In reality, also some M1-2 missiles seems to have the same warhead.)
>Numerous fragmenting missiles were made with similar H shape fragments.
Perhaps, but only BUK was seen on the area. And the missile came from separatist's area.
>The area was bombarded with mortars and assorted rocketry and missiles for several months between July 17
It is easy to tell the difference of BUK vs things like Grad fragments. Grad warhead fragments was also found on the plane debris, by Akkermans, IIRC.
>this time WITHOUT photographing them.
They have been photographed. Also by Akkermans.
DSB has 500 fragments to study and they said they focus on 25 of them.
Those fragments have come from outside of the plane. It's also confirmed that those are not bullet fragments.
These fragments that came recently to public are extra.
(pro-russia Cyber Berkut team "leaked" some DSB to Kiev sent "details" of DSB's fragments, they indicated M1 missile that bot Ukraine and Russia use. In reality, also some M1-2 missiles seems to have the same warhead.)
>Numerous fragmenting missiles were made with similar H shape fragments.
Perhaps, but only BUK was seen on the area. And the missile came from separatist's area.
>The area was bombarded with mortars and assorted rocketry and missiles for several months between July 17
It is easy to tell the difference of BUK vs things like Grad fragments. Grad warhead fragments was also found on the plane debris, by Akkermans, IIRC.
>this time WITHOUT photographing them.
They have been photographed. Also by Akkermans.
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How does any one know where is the "separatist area" where "Kiev-controlled"? They only settled more or less where is who - following the 2nd Minsk agreement.
In summer it was a chess-board of pockets. Moreover, on the maps published - one and same village was counted on maps as "our" or "enemy's" by both sides simultaneously! Because Kiev troops moved in hectic manner, private battalions moved where they wished, where and how separatists moved no one knows at all - and all sides lied! tall lies regarding what they "have just captured". Where they have defeated everyone flat out o)
There has never been one decent map to trust where is who throughout whole summer.
Proof - poor OSCE - based in a hotel in Donetsk - couldn't venture out to the crash site for days. They ventured, returned, began anew, being shelled, along the route, by hell knows who.
Malaysian team, originally based in Kiev, ventured to reach Donetsk 2 weeks after the catastrophe, settled in a hotel in Donetsk as well.
Likewise, they couldn't get to the crash site, even, accompanied by all separatist leaders, and Malaysians had "guarantees" from both sides, that all is fine and no one would touch them.
I read their memoirs in summer when they recalled a blast into a car in front of them on the road, and that they had to turn back to Donetsk, afraid to continue. That was a separatist car ahead of them, by the way, Malaysians were in the centre of a "procession" of vehicles. Tucked into the centre by separatists, for safety.
No one could drive there safely, be you a Kievan or a separatist, because there are different brands of each kind, each of own mind and command.
In summer it was a chess-board of pockets. Moreover, on the maps published - one and same village was counted on maps as "our" or "enemy's" by both sides simultaneously! Because Kiev troops moved in hectic manner, private battalions moved where they wished, where and how separatists moved no one knows at all - and all sides lied! tall lies regarding what they "have just captured". Where they have defeated everyone flat out o)
There has never been one decent map to trust where is who throughout whole summer.
Proof - poor OSCE - based in a hotel in Donetsk - couldn't venture out to the crash site for days. They ventured, returned, began anew, being shelled, along the route, by hell knows who.
Malaysian team, originally based in Kiev, ventured to reach Donetsk 2 weeks after the catastrophe, settled in a hotel in Donetsk as well.
Likewise, they couldn't get to the crash site, even, accompanied by all separatist leaders, and Malaysians had "guarantees" from both sides, that all is fine and no one would touch them.
I read their memoirs in summer when they recalled a blast into a car in front of them on the road, and that they had to turn back to Donetsk, afraid to continue. That was a separatist car ahead of them, by the way, Malaysians were in the centre of a "procession" of vehicles. Tucked into the centre by separatists, for safety.
No one could drive there safely, be you a Kievan or a separatist, because there are different brands of each kind, each of own mind and command.
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IMHO neither side needed a BUK.
Kiev had nothing to shoot at, by a BUK.
Russia never bombed Ukraine from air.
Separatists had nothing in air at all. No "aviation" :o)
What to shoot at? Birds?
Separatists didn't need a Buk either. They have shot 24 Ukrainian airplanes very successfully, before the Boeing tragedy, having no BUKs.
By "conventional" arms , in their disposal. In the range - from fighter jets to large transport airplanes, carrying Ukrainian military personnel.
What for would separatists need a BUK?
BUK, as I understood it, fires at high altitudes, 10,000 metres, exactly where passenger aviation flies.
Ukrainian military planes flew 5,000-7,000 metres, within the range of the existing separatist arms. Proven by the loss of it all.
Who, in his right mind, would take aim at 10,000 metres where there is, technically, nothing military above Ukraine?
Whoever (if it were a BUK from the ground) took the aim high up there - what was in mind? To find there - what? on earth
Kiev had nothing to shoot at, by a BUK.
Russia never bombed Ukraine from air.
Separatists had nothing in air at all. No "aviation" :o)
What to shoot at? Birds?
Separatists didn't need a Buk either. They have shot 24 Ukrainian airplanes very successfully, before the Boeing tragedy, having no BUKs.
By "conventional" arms , in their disposal. In the range - from fighter jets to large transport airplanes, carrying Ukrainian military personnel.
What for would separatists need a BUK?
BUK, as I understood it, fires at high altitudes, 10,000 metres, exactly where passenger aviation flies.
Ukrainian military planes flew 5,000-7,000 metres, within the range of the existing separatist arms. Proven by the loss of it all.
Who, in his right mind, would take aim at 10,000 metres where there is, technically, nothing military above Ukraine?
Whoever (if it were a BUK from the ground) took the aim high up there - what was in mind? To find there - what? on earth
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JITMH17.com - text in Russian an English; video with Russian sound and English subtitles. That website is linked from Dutch prosecutors' and police's websites. The video contains new (not published earlier) phone taps. New points of the Buk TELAR route. Buk is now officially the main version.
http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2015/03/30/...-separatisten/
http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2015/04/01/...itietape-mh17/
(Russian translation)
Phone taps published earlier: on July 18, on July 25. On March 30 Westerbeke confirmed them as not fake, despite widespread disbelief and attempts to discredit them:
http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2015/03/30/...-separatisten/
http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2015/04/01/...itietape-mh17/
(Russian translation)
Phone taps published earlier: on July 18, on July 25. On March 30 Westerbeke confirmed them as not fake, despite widespread disbelief and attempts to discredit them:
Hoofdofficier Fred Westerbeke sprak maandag van “authentieke opnames”, die “uit-en-te-na zijn onderzocht”, zo zei hij op televisie.
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Dear Lena, I am far from terroristic circles :o), I don't know what shoots at 7,000 metres.
I vaguely think it's called "SAM". As the blogger from Finland has just pointed out.
Something that looks like spears and is carried on the shoulder.
(my this idea was formed on various movies :o) and . news. from "hot" locations, in this planet)
Additionally, I think that separatists downed all Ukrainian military aviation there were NOT so high up in sky, but in immediate approach, when fighter jets were bombing them, in immediate view.
The big transport plane (able to fly high) was definitely shot when it was landing in the airport.
Ukraine never closed its sky for passenger traffic, didn't stop own, also - Russian airlines flew safely over Ukraine. Aeroflot certainly did, many int'l companies did.
I think there was no BUK in the game.
All "activities" went low, over roof tops.
I vaguely think it's called "SAM". As the blogger from Finland has just pointed out.
Something that looks like spears and is carried on the shoulder.
(my this idea was formed on various movies :o) and . news. from "hot" locations, in this planet)
Additionally, I think that separatists downed all Ukrainian military aviation there were NOT so high up in sky, but in immediate approach, when fighter jets were bombing them, in immediate view.
The big transport plane (able to fly high) was definitely shot when it was landing in the airport.
Ukraine never closed its sky for passenger traffic, didn't stop own, also - Russian airlines flew safely over Ukraine. Aeroflot certainly did, many int'l companies did.
I think there was no BUK in the game.
All "activities" went low, over roof tops.
Last edited by Alice025; 2nd Apr 2015 at 15:24.
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Russia has many defects but things are. organised here. say, controlled :o)
If Putin authorized issue of a BUK to Donbass separatists, he'd surely accompany that by a whistle to own civil aviation. not by a whistle. by an order :o) - to avoid the conflict zone in planning their routes.
Any excuse would be used, easily, to cover up the real reason.
And, by the way, other world airlines would then follow Russian suit. Since many governments are used, by now, to read what Kremlin means - between the lines.
Nothing like that took place. To me that means the BUK system joining the fighting - if it were - was very un-planned for
If Putin authorized issue of a BUK to Donbass separatists, he'd surely accompany that by a whistle to own civil aviation. not by a whistle. by an order :o) - to avoid the conflict zone in planning their routes.
Any excuse would be used, easily, to cover up the real reason.
And, by the way, other world airlines would then follow Russian suit. Since many governments are used, by now, to read what Kremlin means - between the lines.
Nothing like that took place. To me that means the BUK system joining the fighting - if it were - was very un-planned for
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Read: in English or in Russian, look at photos, watch videos. Also read the official webpage (in Russian and English) of the Joint Investigation Team, watch the video.
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Conspiracy theories Lena, come on. I am not scared of Pu, he was "planning to kill Russians", eh? And "shot down Malaysians, instead"?
We know perfectly well how and in what :o0 powers to be. say. can be bad for us. Have got vast experience :oO Trained population.
Being deadly is not included in the list of scares :o)
We know perfectly well how and in what :o0 powers to be. say. can be bad for us. Have got vast experience :oO Trained population.
Being deadly is not included in the list of scares :o)
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The "Joint Investigation Team" material you quote is no more than that -
"Call for witnesses
An international joint investigation team, in which Australia, Belgium, Malaysia, the Netherlands and Ukraine take part, is conducting a criminal investigation into the downing of flight MH17 on the 17th of July 2014 and is examining different scenarios. The focus of one scenario is that the MH17 was shot down by a BUK missile system. We are looking for witnesses who might..."
It is not the body in charge of investigation. ICAO didn't appoint them :o), sorry. ICAO appointed Dutch Investigation Board.
What you quote is a friendly gathering of specialists from different countries, headed by the new General Prosecutor of Ukraine.
The new man, freshly appointed, who promised, in your newspapers, to bring proof of Russian involvement in the crash "within 1 month time". To Ukrainian public.
Sure he looks for evidence.
It might be the Russian saying "Fear has big eyes", a syndrome, in Kiev. Ukrainians were scared 26 times exactly, in the past year, someone has counted :o), the occasions when your top brass and country . various. VIPs - told Ukrainian public that "Russia will invade us tomorrow".
Any one will get scared after that, to live constantly on such nerves, no wonder.
"Call for witnesses
An international joint investigation team, in which Australia, Belgium, Malaysia, the Netherlands and Ukraine take part, is conducting a criminal investigation into the downing of flight MH17 on the 17th of July 2014 and is examining different scenarios. The focus of one scenario is that the MH17 was shot down by a BUK missile system. We are looking for witnesses who might..."
It is not the body in charge of investigation. ICAO didn't appoint them :o), sorry. ICAO appointed Dutch Investigation Board.
What you quote is a friendly gathering of specialists from different countries, headed by the new General Prosecutor of Ukraine.
The new man, freshly appointed, who promised, in your newspapers, to bring proof of Russian involvement in the crash "within 1 month time". To Ukrainian public.
Sure he looks for evidence.
It might be the Russian saying "Fear has big eyes", a syndrome, in Kiev. Ukrainians were scared 26 times exactly, in the past year, someone has counted :o), the occasions when your top brass and country . various. VIPs - told Ukrainian public that "Russia will invade us tomorrow".
Any one will get scared after that, to live constantly on such nerves, no wonder.
Last edited by Alice025; 2nd Apr 2015 at 18:47.
