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Old 21st Jul 2014, 14:24   #621 (permalink)
 
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Lots of detailed photos of the debris:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/jeroen...57645790319631
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Old 21st Jul 2014, 14:33   #622 (permalink)
 
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PVMW

The only problem with your Dads army theory is that it takes a lot of skill and training to operate these missiles so someone with those skills had to be assisting Captain Mannering?

That does not preclude a mistaken target or overexcitement fogging the proper identification of that target with tragic results and a political self goal with damage rectification which is what appears to be happening

pace
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Old 21st Jul 2014, 14:50   #623 (permalink)
 
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Not 2 SU-27's, but SU-25 according to Russians: Ukrainian Su-25 fighter detected in close approach to MH17 before crash - Russian military

Last edited by Caygill; 21st Jul 2014 at 14:54. Reason: Added link text
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Old 21st Jul 2014, 15:12   #624 (permalink)
 
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Briefing of the Russian MoD 2-star general and a traffic control person:



They do not state anything for sure, but raise some questions on some strange things happened on that day/time.

1. The activity of Ukrainian radars (including those of air defense systems) dramatically increased on that day.
2. There was a military aircraft (supposedly Su-25) flying in a close vicinity (3-5 km) of MH-17 before and shortly after the Boeing was shot.
3. MH-17 deviated its course to the north getting out of the pre-defined corridor shortly before the trouble.
4. One of the Ukrainian BUK launch complexes that were relocated to the area a few days before the tragedy, was additionally moved to a new place, very close to the line between the army and the rebels. Immediately after the tragedy it was moved back.
Etc.

Anyway, there is an English translation, those interested may listen and watch.
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Old 21st Jul 2014, 15:46   #625 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
3. MH-17 deviated its course to the north getting out of the pre-defined corridor shortly before the trouble.
From our data in the area this appears to be true. In the last couple of minutes of the flight MH17 seems to have changed heading by about 14 degrees. FR24 agrees but with a smaller HDG change.
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Old 21st Jul 2014, 15:54   #626 (permalink)
 
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Su-25?

A 0.82 Mmo Frogfoot with a service ceiling of 7 km was in "close approach" to a 777 at FL330?

Sukhoi Company (JSC) - Airplanes - Military Aircraft - Su-25  - Aircraft performance
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Old 21st Jul 2014, 15:55   #627 (permalink)
 
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Carlos

Here is Carlos back in May 2014. Perhaps someone can translate? Is he claiming to be an ATCO in the video?



He obviously has history with the state sponsored Russia Today so perhaps his social media was an easy target for the Russian Internet Troll Army?

The following is a google translation of the video description. Is Carlos playing them along as to his job description or is it a case of a misinterpretation?

Quote:
Express what one thinks about the crisis in Ukraine can even lead to an alien to be forced to flee for their lives Kiev. It is the case of a Spanish air traffic controller who was threatened by supporters of the Maidan.

Carlos, who spoke with RT on the condition of anonymity, has received threats despite not defending any interest. "I have my opinion and my view of a normal person, with a separate work [unrelated] or media, or any political party, nor to any association."

Last edited by TEEEJ; 21st Jul 2014 at 15:58. Reason: Additional info added
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Old 21st Jul 2014, 15:56   #628 (permalink)
 
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What a tragedy this is.

The media are in such a frenzy to get the latest useless nugget of convenient information / disinformation out that suits their agenda (on both sides) that they seem to be missing much.

While I'm not saying it wasn't a missile, other than US satellite information is there anything to suggest it was a missile? Surely the launch of a missile of the type which was supposedly responsible would have been noticed by someone / something other than a US satellite?

What are the hard fact's about the fighter escort?

Those apparently responsible for the launch were drunk as the supposed launch site was littered with beer cans - can a satellite differentiate between a soft drink can, an aerosol can & a beer can? If it can, how does the presence of beer cans prove that those who launched the missile were drunk?

I suspect that the Western media may have overplayed the brutality & ignorance of the locals & rebels - the story at one point on Sunday was that they were running about pissed, letting rounds off & blocking / intimidating investigators. Yet at the same time there are images of rescue workers clearing the site of bodies & attempting to bring some order - the widely shown image of the rebel(?) soldier holding up a cuddy toy has been used out of context so many times it's just sickening.....

300 people have needlessly lost their lives & the media on all sides are turning it into something like an election run-up funfair, complete with spin doctors & B.S.
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Old 21st Jul 2014, 16:10   #629 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
This is an interesting article by David Cenciotti. He is a journalist with good knowledge on military aviation.

According to an authoritative source, two Su-27 Flankers escorted the Malaysian Boeing 777 minutes before it was hit by one or more missiles.
He doesn't say that at all, at least not in the link that you posted. He simply quotes his source as saying that if Su-27s were monitoring/shadowing the 777 as it flew over eastern Ukraine, the Buk operators may have mistaken it for a Ukrainian AF aircraft.

He (Cenciotti) also helpfully informs us that:

Quote:
the operators inside the Buk could "read" the Boeing 777′s altitude and transponder and could easily identify the civilian plane enroute from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur
Really?
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Old 21st Jul 2014, 16:16   #630 (permalink)
 
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2 ULMFlyer

Regarding Su-25:
1. 7000 m is a "static ceiling", "dynamic ceiling" is much higher, at least 10 km is quite reachable.
2. To release an air-to-air P-60 missile there is no need to equalize the altitude with the target aircraft.

However, it looks quite unlikely that 777 could be completely destroyed by such a small missile as P-60. Unless it exploded directly in front of the cockpit making the crew inoperable instantly plus resulting in massive cabin depressurization....
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Old 21st Jul 2014, 16:16   #631 (permalink)
 
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The picture shows SIA351, not MAS17 in close proximity to another target.
Also a flight squawking 3416 at FL400 on opposite path.
it seems the Russians are trying to argue that Ukraine fighters have hidden behind the civil airplanes.
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Old 21st Jul 2014, 16:17   #632 (permalink)
 
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Russian Press Conference on the story

So far, it has only been played around EE, and not the West.

Russia says they have evidence that Ukraine did it and so does the US since US surveillance satellite was passing over Ukraine at that very time.



Last edited by SadPole; 21st Jul 2014 at 16:43. Reason: Second video link added
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Old 21st Jul 2014, 16:37   #633 (permalink)
 
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SU-25 service ceiling

It's already said, but I put some emphasis on this:

"Service ceiling (without external ordnance and stores), km 7"

(Sukhoi's official website Sukhoi Company (JSC) - Airplanes - Military Aircraft - Su-25  - Aircraft performance)

With ordnance this ac is simply unable to climb further. I agree, (perhaps) it doesn't need to climb to 330 to fire a missile at a 330 target (I don't know the radar angle capabilities, but keeping in mind it's primary role is ground attack I really doubt it's able to track targets at a high angle), but for what reason the Ukrainians would have used a SU-25 for such dreadful mission and not a SU-27, a SU-24 or a MIG-29 instead?!
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Old 21st Jul 2014, 16:59   #634 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pax britanica View Post
I personally do not want to be dependent on the USA for energy any more than I do Russia. In many ways they are both as bad as each other, big bully nations with a huge sense of entitlement and have proved many times that they do not care who gets in their way.
That's rich, considering who posted it, and the user name. How soon we forget. England was a signatory to the guarantee of Ukraine's sovereignty when USSR/CIS broke up, remember?

The points you made on energy strategy and political moves in that realm are well put, and valid even today. One of the sound bytes on this side of the pond that got a lot of play was "drill baby drill" with an eye to greater reliance on domestic sources rather than foreigners ... and of course our domestic oil lobby having an eye on jobs and balance sheets. Follow the money.

How does that tie into this shoot down? I find it hard to believe that Vlad and his crew are directly involved in this event, as he doesn't need any more bad press than he already has. The narrative being suggested, that the more pro-Russian faction in Ukraine needed to establish that it owns the air volume over the territory it holds dear (SAM's are a fine air denial means) makes much more sense on a lot of levels. That faction isn't in a position to give a crap about large muscle movement energy policy, what they want is to be in a political sphere more to their liking ... which looks a bit more toward Moscow than Kiev. That's the whole point of their uprising: they don't like what's going on at the highest levels of government in Ukraine.

Lon More:
Quote:
Dutch tv just showing the investigators being threatened by rebel troops if they try to approach the main wreckage. Seems a bit Obvious who's trying to hide a smoking gun
Yep, nothing subtle about that move.

sadPole, thank you for the post with the KLM tracks etc. Sometimes, a picture paints a thousand words.

Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 21st Jul 2014 at 17:43.
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Old 21st Jul 2014, 17:25   #635 (permalink)
 
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Who's fooling who?

Nothing really makes sense to me here unless it was intentional or a false flag operation. If it was the rebels by mistake it will eventually come out, if it was the Ukrainian military by mistake it will probably also come out, and if it was the Russians shooting over the border it will certainly come out. I mean if it was an accident - whoever to blame - the only rational thing would be to come straight and apology! It has happen before and unfortunately it can happen again.

I donít get it Just hope a proper investigation can get started.
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Old 21st Jul 2014, 17:29   #636 (permalink)
 
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It seems that no-one fired at MH17 - not the Kiev government, nor the pro-Russia rebels, nor Russia itself. It would therefore be in the interests of all three parties to start examining the wreckage for evidence of mechanical failure, bomb, etc. (After all, hasn't the world been on high alert recently for warnings about a plane being targeted?)

The fact that all three aren't co-operating to get investigators to the site as quickly as possible suggests to me that not one of them think it was mechanical failure or a bomb. Why are they all so sure?
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Old 21st Jul 2014, 17:32   #637 (permalink)
 
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from
Financial Times: The MH17 debris left untouched and ignored
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Old 21st Jul 2014, 17:41   #638 (permalink)
 
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Black boxes to be handed over to Malaysians, according to BBC newsflash.

Edited: rt.com says:

Quote:
Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak says the Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 black boxes will be handed over to the Malaysians in Donetsk at 9pm Ukrainian time. The bodies of 282 victims of the crash are to be flown to Amsterdam.

Prime Minister Najib Razak said an agreement had been reached with militiamen at the scene of the crash that the Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 black boxes will be handed over to Malaysian authorities in Donetsk at 9pm Ukrainian time.
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Old 21st Jul 2014, 17:49   #639 (permalink)
 
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US surveillance data

In view of the fact that Obama has already stated that the USA has data showing the use of a SA missile to bring this aircraft down it seems perverse in the extreme not to make some of the raw data available right away, even if in limited resolution. Not doing so just helps accelerate the storm of disinformation.

In the case of a "normal" accident investigation you could say that holding back would be prudent however given the likelihood that other evidence is already compromised revealing some of the data might at least shut down some of the disinformation.
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Old 21st Jul 2014, 17:52   #640 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Nothing really makes sense to me here unless it was intentional or a false flag operation
Caygill, I agree with this statement.

One thing is for sure - the only aircraft flying in that area post the M17 downing are military now. So "they" know who the enemy is now.
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