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MH17 down near Donetsk

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MH17 down near Donetsk

Old 2nd Apr 2015, 18:57
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Dutch Safety Board (DSB) according to ICAO rules investigates cause of the crash but not whom to blame:
http://onderzoeksraad.nl/en/onderzoe...tigating#fasen
The Dutch Board of Safety will not make any statements with regard to blame or liability and these issues will not form part of the investigation.
Joint Investigation Team (JIT) is headed by Dutch prosecutor Fred Westerbeke, not an Ukrainian. JIT conducts criminal investigation (whom to blame, for criminal court trial). I'm not aware of any other criminal investigation about MH17.

Originally Posted by Alice025 View Post
The "Joint Investigation Team" material you quote is no more than that -
"Call for witnesses
Watch the video there. Attentively. Before you write anything more.

Is your goal to ignore replies and flood this forum?
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Old 15th Apr 2015, 07:43
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the weird case of MH17

This MH17 case is one of the most weird ever seen or heard of.

First of all, if the Dutch Investigative team has found the fragments inside the bodies of the pilots, this case should have solved a long time ago. At least the type of the missile used or whether the accident was caused by the air to air missile should be known already.

As it is impossible to read all the post of this thread, I'm quickly adding this information from the German Bundestag for your information. It's in German. However, you can easily use Google or Yandex translator. The link first:
Deutscher Bundestag - Erkenntnisse zu Flug MH 17
(if the link is incorrect, you may always contact the German Bundestag by yourselves.)

Erkenntnisse zu Flug MH17 ( the titel)

... Hätten zwei Awacs-Auklärungsflugzeuge der NATO, die sich Zum Zeitpunkt des Absturzes im Polnischen beziehungsweise...

Radaraufzeichnungen des Fluges mh-17 verlieren sich um 14.52 Uhr Mitteleuropäische zeit...
...
..Aufklärer sudem signale von einem flugabwehrraketensystem sowie ein weiteres durch Awacs nicht zuzuordnendendes Radarsignal...

Das flugabwehrsystem sei automatisiert als "Surface to Air Missile" SA-3 klassifiert worden

What does the above mean?
The quick and not good translation. There were two Nato Awacs planes. Those planes automatically identified three(?) radar signals: One from the plane MH17, one from the Radar of Sa-3 Missile system and one unknown Radar signal!!

Could this unkown radar signal be a fighter jet? (Transponder turned off)

It is weird that the radar signal of MH17 was lost at 14.52. According to other sources (Reuters,etc.) the time point of accident was 13.20. local time. (i.e 15.20)

Also please note that according to certain sources, the Malaysian plane was expected to enter into the Russian air space exactly at 13.20. (Please confirm this)
However, the plane was late and it was about 50 kilometers from the Russian border at the time of the accident. The plane was proceeding towards Russia.

if you read the article by Robert Parry: He is talking about SA-6 missiles referring to the US Intel.
https://consortiumnews.com/2015/01/1...-17-cold-case/

You may remember that In Ukraine at the time point of the accident was arranged the Nato excersise Air Breeze 2014. That's why I believe the Awacs planes were controlling the Ukrainian air space. However, no satellitate data has been published.


Tags: als "Surface to Air Missile" SA-3 klassifiert worden
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Old 15th Apr 2015, 08:00
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Conflict Zone Database

Long overdue and sadly costing lives before instigating, ICAO is implementing a Conflict Zone Resource for all to reference.

Here it is but it's still in the set up phase.
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Old 16th Apr 2015, 04:23
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Thanks for the link Choks Away. Hopefully this provides for a good tool to work with. However today thousands of airliners fly over conflict areas without a problem, some even work in and out of conflict zones. While reducing the risk of getting shot down, this tool won't remove the possibility totally and to work would need tight co-operation with government intelligence agencies and militaries, some of whom might not be interested in providing information on equipment they might have given to the combatants.

I find it interesting how any website having discussion forums on Ukraine or MH17 is infested with pro-Russian views, clear Russian trolls and foilhat conspiracy theorists implicating CIA, NSA, USA, chemtrails and not to forget the worldwide zionist/fascists conspiracy that is clearly behind this heinous act or repeating the Russian propaganda on SU25's as well as muddying the waters with half truths, misrepresentations and clear lies.

One must be careful when reading the material originating from St.Petersburg troll factories. At first glance it can look quite convincing, but digging into the material shows it to be trash. Unfortunately it's this stuff that is spread in various BB's around the world.
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Old 16th Apr 2015, 05:09
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Not, it is not: The statement says that MH17 left the tracking range of the AWACS aircraft at 14.52, not that it was downed then.

Originally Posted by Nobukmissile
It is weird that the radar signal of MH17 was lost at 14.52. According to other sources (Reuters,etc.) the time point of accident was 13.20. local time. (i.e 15.20)
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Old 16th Apr 2015, 20:09
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AWACS has a Range about 650km. The Distance from Poland to Horlivka is about 1100km. Use Google Earth to check. It takes 2 Minutes.

„Die Radaraufzeichnungen des Fluges MH-17 verlieren sich um 14.52 Uhr Mitteleuropäische Zeit (12.52UTC) mit Verlassen der MH-17 aus dem Aufklärungsbereich der Awacs-Luftfahrzeuge“,

The Time of cut off CVR + FDR was 13.20.03 UTC.

The same of Sa-3. That was discussed some time ago.

Forget the Story of Fighter Jets.

Last edited by triumph61; 16th Apr 2015 at 20:20.
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Old 2nd Jul 2015, 14:53
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BUK, as I understood it, fires at high altitudes, 10,000 metres, exactly where passenger aviation flies.

Ukrainian military planes flew 5,000-7,000 metres, within the range of the existing separatist arms. Proven by the loss of it all.

Who, in his right mind, would take aim at 10,000 metres where there is, technically, nothing military above Ukraine?

Whoever (if it were a BUK from the ground) took the aim high up there - what was in mind? To find there - what? on earth
From a distance of 30km, a plane at 6000m and one at 10000m appear at an angular distance of roughly 8 degrees to the man at the radar. If the 6000m plane is 12km closer (at 18km), they would appear in the same spot, the closer one hiding the higher-up, further-away one. If you're under pressure, that may not be so easy to sort out quickly!
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Old 10th Jul 2015, 07:46
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Lena. Kiev

"Watch the video there...... Attentively. Before you write anything more.

Is your goal to ignore replies and flood this forum? "
===========================================

Dear Lena,
do you really believe that SSU reports can be viewed and treated seriously ?
even the former Head of SSU resigned as he couldn't stand it anymore....
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Old 10th Jul 2015, 15:05
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Originally Posted by mfeldt View Post
From a distance of 30km, a plane at 6000m and one at 10000m appear at an angular distance of roughly 8 degrees to the man at the radar. If the 6000m plane is 12km closer (at 18km), they would appear in the same spot
The crew at the Buk TELAR radar has distance, altitude and speed instruments besides azimuth and elevation angle. The radar measures (slant) distance and (radial) speed (using Doppler effect, like highway police's radars), the builtin computer calculates altitude from distance and elevation angle. I have proof: a textbook on Buk TELAR. The computer is old and bulky, but it does its job. Just a glance at the speed and altitude instruments would be enough to understand that the target is neither An-26 nor An-30. The Buk missile has semi-active homing head - it means that the homing head contains receiver only, the transmitter is in the TELAR ("illuminating" mode of the radar). It's enough to switch off the radar in TELAR, and 3 seconds after that the missile self-destructs (the warhead detonates) in mid-flight. The missile flew for 33.5 seconds.

Two planes simultaneously so that they continuously appear as one dot on radar screen? Even if you assume such unbelievable coincidence, where another plane is on the record from two Rostov primary radars?

Originally Posted by LYBE View Post
do you really believe that SSU reports can be viewed and treated seriously ?
I consider only two versions of MH17 shootdown, one of them is SSU's:
http://sbu.gov.ua/sbu/control/en/pub...?art_id=129860
In both versions the Buk TELAR was transported on a low-loader by separatists, but the TELAR and its crew were from Kursk, Russia; the crew thought that they shot at an Ukrainian army aircraft Il-76, An-26 or An-30. The difference between these two versions is whom the upper commander wanted to shoot down: in the SSU's version a Russian passenger jet, in another version indeed an Ukrainian army airplane.

The head of JIT (Dutch prosecutor Fred Westerbeke) told in an interview that (cellular) phone taps by SSU are deemed by JIT as “authentic recordings” and that they “were analyzed through and through”:
http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2015/04/01/...ion-team-mh17/
The difference between us (the public) and JIT is that JIT no doubt requested and got sources of the phone taps: SSU recorded all cellular communications in the war zone. Westerbeke told that Ukraine answered to all their requests, unlike Russia:
http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justi...-a-999193.html
Recently JIT took soil samples at the missile launch site and recorded signals from cell towers in the occupied part of Donetsk region - apparently in order to get more proof of authenticity of the phone taps.

Originally Posted by LYBE View Post
even the former Head of SSU resigned as he couldn't stand it anymore....
He didn't resign, he was fired by parliamentary vote after the president's request.
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Old 15th Jul 2015, 12:29
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A 'leak' on the MH17 report from 'sources':

First on CNN: Sources say MH17 report blames pro-Russian missile for shooting down plane

By Rene Marsh, CNN Aviation and Governmental Regulation Correspondent

Updated 7:54 AM ET, Wed July 15, 2015

(CNN)—It's been nearly one year since 298 people were killed after a commercial passenger plane broke up over the Ukraine.

U.S. officials concluded Malaysia airlines flight MH17 was struck by a missile and shot out of the sky. A final report from investigators has yet to be released but CNN has learned new details from the draft investigative report for July 17, 2014 incident.

Dutch accident investigators say, evidence points to pro-Russian rebels as being responsible for shooting down MH-17, according to a source who has seen the report.

The Malaysian Airlines flight went down in the Donetsk area of Ukraine. According to two sources with knowledge of the investigation, a draft of an investigative report authored by the Dutch Safety Board, the lead agency in the investigation, has been distributed for review to numerous agencies around the world including the National Transportation Safety Board, Federal Aviation Administration and Boeing.

The draft investigative report is several hundred pages long. According to one source close to the investigation the draft report included the exact type of missile used to bring down MH17 and the trajectory of the missile.

Another source with knowledge of the report's details says it gives a minute by minute timeline of flight MH17. This source also says not only does the draft report pinpoint where the missile was fired from it identifies who was in control of the territory and pins the downing of MH17 on the Pro Russian rebels.

According to both sources, the report also pins some blame on Malaysia Airlines for how its planes were dispatched that day.

Some airlines were avoiding the conflict zone. According to the report Malaysia Airlines was not reading other countries' notice to airmen or NOTAMs and it continued to fly over the zone. Notice to airmen or NOTAMs are written notifications issued to pilots before a flight, advising them of circumstances relating to the state of flying, and those notifications can include warnings of potential dangers like conflict zones.

U.S. Airline Carriers for example make decisions about where to fly and where not to fly based on notice to airmen (NOTAMs) that different countries issue to their pilots. If for example, based on intelligence, Britain warned its pilots to avoid flying over a certain country U.S. Carriers would read and consider those warnings and decide if they too will avoid the area.

The Dutch Safety Board is investigating the crash of flight MH17 but it is also investigating the decision-making process pertaining to safety when determining flight routes.

Dutch investigators say in their report that because Malaysia airlines didn't review other countries' warnings it was unaware of conflict zones other airlines were avoiding. Sources who have seen the report say the Dutch Safety Board suggests Malaysia Airlines didn't have a robust system like other carriers.
More here: Sources: MH17 report blames pro-Russian missile - CNNPolitics.com
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Old 16th Jul 2015, 13:01
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The previous time a missile brought down an airliner over Ukraine (Siberian Air), the russians were saying the Ukrainians done it and the Ukrainians were doing the denying.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberi...es_Flight_1812

As an SLF, I think at the very least airlines should refrain from flying over a known war zone or missile exercise, and counting on the restraint of the participants. Surely, there is no harm in avoiding known turbulence? To me it looks like the decision to route over combattants equipped with missiles -as proven by Siberian Air- was the first hole to line up in this swiss cheese.

Edmund
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Old 16th Jul 2015, 13:13
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Westerbeke told that Ukraine answered to all their requests, unlike Russia:
What about the ATC tapes that were allegedly confiscated by the Ukrainian secret service?
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Old 16th Jul 2015, 14:41
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LLuCCiFeR tapescripts of both conversations (starting from entering Ukrainian airpsace till latest calls) and coordinations (starting from Warsaw-Lviv ending with Dnipropetrosk-Rostov) were transferred to commission by UkSatse. Scripts are saved in WAV format, and can't be technically confiscated: as they are stored on different servers at ATC facility and UkSatse main office.
And by the way: there were few other traffic on same frequency, and had conversations at black boxes.
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Old 16th Jul 2015, 14:58
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And by the way: there were few other traffic on same frequency, and had conversations at black boxes.
True, but they don't contain conversations ATC controllers and different units (Kiev, Lviv, Dipno) are having among themselves.

Scripts are saved in WAV format, and can't be technically confiscated: as they are stored on different servers at ATC facility and UkSatse main office.
Oh please, come on. Any 10 year old can convert .wav to .mp3 or make a copy.

Why can't these ATC tapes (.wav if you will) be made public, just like that alleged intercepted phone conversation between the separatists?
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Old 16th Jul 2015, 15:10
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LLuCCiFeR according to comission demands, Ukraine can't publish conversations. so wait for final report.

but they don't contain conversations ATC controllers and different units (Kiev, Lviv, Dipno) are having among themselves.
just wonder: what "secrets" do u think could be at that conversations?
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Old 16th Jul 2015, 16:25
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just wonder: what "secrets" do u think could be at that conversations?
Perhaps warnings from another ATS unit to avoid overflying that area near Donetsk? Perhaps there were secret/unpublished internal memo's and procedures regarding the airspace in the eastern Ukraine that ATS units could be mentioning? Perhaps warnings from Rostov control? Perhaps mentioning of a Ukrainian military aircraft nearby? Perhaps critical info from the Ukrainian air force? Who knows?!

There could be lot's of extremely relevant things that could have been mentioned among ATC controllers, so releasing those ATC tapes would make a lot more sense than intercepted cellular telephone conversation between two alleged separatists wearing ski masks or a Russian officer.

There is a war going on there, and the first casualty in any war is always the truth. Additionally, with the Ukraine being an active party in this war, they have a direct and vested interest in order to perhaps brush certain 'details' under the carpet, whilst highlighting other things in order to steer towards a more favorable outcome?

p.s. when you listen to the ATC tapes from 9-11, you'll hear lot's of background info (ATC controller calling colleagues, discussing things, calling supervisors etc) that you will not be able to hear on the CVR of MH17: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we9AviBVNkM
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Old 16th Jul 2015, 18:07
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Russian propaganda channel "Lifenews" promised 100000USD for any info about MH17 crash.
German detective agency promised 30 millions.
Monthly salary of ATCO in Ukraine is 500USD.
so if there were anything unusual, me or my colleagues would tell for reward)
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Old 17th Jul 2015, 00:48
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New video footage popped up

Apparently, as yet unpublished video footage appears to show the immediate aftermath of the downing of MH17, with separatist militia looking for the Antonov they thought they shot down.

Australian News Corp has an edited excerpt
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Old 17th Jul 2015, 06:31
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I'm not hating on Russia here, but why oh why would anyone in the Ukraine shoot down a commercial flight over their own territory?

It looks, now, and has always looked, like this incident has its roots somewhere in Russia - either through very poor control of war assets or a direct attempt to create a horrible scenario with the hopes of trying to blame it on "someone" in the process of discrediting them.

The propaganda continues to flow like mother's milk, and people continue to suckle it like babes. Just to borrow a phrase from somewhere...
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Old 17th Jul 2015, 06:43
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Transcript of unedited video (translated from Russian to English):
MH17 video transcript: Rebels thought shot down plane was a Ukraine fighter jet

Locals used to see Su-25 assault aircraft attacking ground Russian hybrid occupation forces. In previous weeks, a few Su-25 were shot down with MANPADS. When locals saw a plane going down, they supposed that one more Su-25 was shot down. Falling debris (including paper towels unrolled while falling down) was mistaken for military plane crew bailed out with parachutes (they didn't understand that Su-25 has a crew of one). Those Russian troops (only professional soldiers call passengers "civilians") were sent to seek that shot down Su-25. When they saw dead passengers, they assumed that the enemy is the villain who shot down a passenger plane. The enemy was there (they were told), therefore the enemy aircraft shot down the airliner. At that time, they were sure that they'd find the enemy, they just had to search for it.
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