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MH17 down near Donetsk

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MH17 down near Donetsk

Old 19th Jul 2014, 19:30
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Originally Posted by con-pilot
According to the President of the United States, it is yes to both questions.

Now why President Obama has not released the proof, is anyone's guess.
Not hard to guess.

To those who already know what happened, it provides information about US surveillance capabilities in the area - release undesirable.

To the ordinary Russians, and to those elsewhere who do not believe the US, it will be US propaganda, fabricated, will not be believed - hence release is of no benefit.

To those in the west who believe US statements it will be redundant because Obama already gave the answers - hence release is of no benefit.
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Old 19th Jul 2014, 19:51
  #482 (permalink)  
 
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It's hard to comment on most of the speculation revolving around the parties involved/guilty as it is at the moment pure speculation. Until the facts are released to the public we are just stoking the fire.

There must be a reason as to why the US haven't released what they know via satellites and their sources. I think they will have the most complete picture currently.

The loss is still raw and people are understandably raw with anger and anguish.

There are so many aspects to this I forsee it will take quite some time to understand it fully.
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Old 19th Jul 2014, 20:28
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Any element of truth in the rumours that Ukrainian ATC requested the a/c descend FL330 before it was allegedly hit by a SAM?
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Old 19th Jul 2014, 20:31
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New York Times article indicates that the launcher was being operated without a link to a command vehicle, and thus had no way of identifying a target other than as a blip on the screen.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2014...=pocket-region
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Old 19th Jul 2014, 20:35
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Cb avoidance and Notam reading.

Having bumbled up and down over Croatia on many occasions in my last years in the seat 0A, I recall being sensitive to avoiding action which took me away from the weather, but would have put me in Kosovan airspace, so that option was never considered. The obvious question if weather deviation actually was a factor in the track of MH17 is, were the crew fully aware of the wasps nest currently lurking there? And if not, then why not?

ATC, some postings ago, you stated rather arrogantly, that if there was any notam, then the crew should have read and actioned it. May I remind you again of the limited time allowed for pre-flight briefing activities and the mass and mess of info presented in a variety of graphic designs which aid misinterpretation and increase the chances of missing the IMPORTANT bits?

I recall in the days of XL Airways, impounding the 87 sides of A4 printed bumph and attempting to get fleet management to reorganise it in a user friendly format. The filters were inadequate so I was skimming past the info regarding the lit mast 10 metres high, adjacent to the bulk fuelling compound at some GA/flying club airfield.

BAs notams at the end of the 90s were informing Classic transatlantic crews about minor airfields in Republic of Ireland.

Like a lot of aviation tragedies, the origins of many accidents lie within the walls of that airlines HQ, so don't try loading the dead MH17 crew with failure to appreciate what was going on 5 miles below, in a continent about which they may have known very little regarding current military conflicts.
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Old 19th Jul 2014, 20:37
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Friday, July 18, 08:20 PM GMT +0800 Media Statement 4 : MH17 Incident

MH17 filed a flight plan requesting to fly at 35,000ft throughout Ukrainian airspace. This is close to the ‘optimum’ altitude.

However, an aircraft’s altitude in flight is determined by air traffic control on the ground. Upon entering Ukrainian airspace, MH17 was instructed by Ukrainian air traffic control to fly at 33,000ft.
http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/my/en/site/mh17.html
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Old 19th Jul 2014, 20:43
  #487 (permalink)  
 
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- Any element of truth in the rumours that Ukrainian ATC
requested the a/c descend FL330 before it was allegedly hit
by a SAM?

MH17 was at FL 330 all the time over Ukrainian territory. Minutes before crash, controller proposed fl350 to mh17 due to another traffic, but crew said that were unable.
anyway...350 couldn't help, as "Buk" can hit target at alt. up to 25 km.
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Old 19th Jul 2014, 21:01
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Hull Insurance

I'm wondering if there is an acts-of-war exclusion for such losses? But, of course, an armed conflict is not necessary a war, depending upon the policy definitions. But maybe the aircraft was leased by MH, and the lessor carried the insurance?


The answer might bear on the future solvency of MH.
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Old 19th Jul 2014, 21:21
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Anyone with extensive knowledge on international aircraft law? Just wondering what the insurance implications for Malaysian are?

The flight was legal at the time the incident happened so would their insurance cover it or would these be classed as an act of war and therefore not be covered?

Just hope the airline can pull through the odds of this happening to Malaysian were unbelievable.

Sorry for all the questions just trying to get a better understanding of the legal aspects. Appreciate your patience.
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Old 19th Jul 2014, 21:22
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It's doubtful as it was never above FL330, so I cannot see how it would have been asked to descend to FL330. ADS-B flight track log here:

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Old 19th Jul 2014, 22:15
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What kind of people would do this ? and then block others from investigating the scene.
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Old 19th Jul 2014, 22:27
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The reason the Dutch and Malaysians are so "mature" about their response is they know there's absolutely nothing the countries can do about it unless the where prepared to send troops in to secure the area.

Now we know thats not going to happen, so they may well just show some dignity and see what they can do.

The question is what level of investigation is needed in this instance, and hence what security? If a complete forensic examination to determin the cause is needed, then nothing short of a professional force be it local police (funny) military etc.

Now, if we know what bought it down, then really all that matters is recovering the body's. That could be a lot simpler. The problem here is determining all the various interests and hence the resistance to particular actions.

Depending on how and what bought it down, will determine the action of those who did it and the need of a cleaning operation before any of the "other side" get there.

So the real fact is it was probably just a up, and almost every one knows it. Hence some people are just accepting the fact, and others are using it. Another words the innocent are in the middle again, situation normal.
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Old 19th Jul 2014, 22:30
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It seems our chances of receiving an unbiased report just diminished a little. Surely the airline industry in general should pressure for transparency here?



Ukraine's Security Service Has Confiscated Air Traffic Control Recordings With Malaysian Jet | Zero Hedge
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Old 19th Jul 2014, 22:36
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Originally Posted by flash8
We need some objectivity here.

Their is no evidence that either the separatists nor their alleged Russian sponsors are responsible for this, and any reports by OSCE observers need to be taken within the context of their agenda, they are not as many imagine totally unbiased.
there is plenty of evidence, maybe it is censored in Russia where you are, but you can see it everywhere else, INCLUDING here!.
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Old 19th Jul 2014, 22:42
  #495 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by infrequentflyer
, a number of sites are claiming there is chaff visible in videos of the crash - . . .
Personally, I think that is nowhere near the right size for chaff, but there are allegations that it is an old cold-war USSR type.w.
I or J band chaff is only 1 to 1.5 cm. Russian CW chaff was better than western chaff.

If dispensed at altitude you would be lucky to find one piece especially as fighters don't carry much.
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Old 19th Jul 2014, 22:48
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Originally Posted by rideforever
The Dutch and Malaysians seem to have responded with a dignity and maturity to their loss of life.

By contrast the Western / Russia media are going at it like wolves.
blinkers much?

MH17: Grieving Dutch relatives angry at reports of looting at crash scene | News.com.au

THE Dutch are fuming that rebel separatists are trawling through the belongings of the dead passengers of MH17 and publishing their “trophies’’ on social networking sites. The brutality of losing nearly 192 of their fellow citizens, many of them children on their summer break, has stirred an inner anger in the Dutch national psyche as the initial shock of the catastrophic downing of MH17 in a surface missile strike starts to wear off.
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Old 19th Jul 2014, 23:06
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flash8 - 20th Jul 2014, 06:28

Any element of truth in the rumours that Ukrainian ATC requested the a/c descend FL330 before it was allegedly hit by a SAM?
"MH17 climbed from FL310 to FL330 as it entered Ukraine from Poland and SQ351 was at FL330 when it entered Ukraine from Belarus. SQ351 later climbed to FL350 as the two planes converged while MH17 stayed at FL330. ATC's discretion to maintain separation? The 2 planes were quite close (~25-30km) to each other when MH was downed.

...approx positions from flightradar24.com at 1320UTC for both SQ351 and MH17, SQ351 is at FL350 and MH17 at FL330.

The area both planes were in were off-limits from FL260 to FL320 according to UKDV NOTAM A1492/14."

Quote from here.
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Old 19th Jul 2014, 23:31
  #498 (permalink)  

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It seems our chances of receiving an unbiased report just diminished a little. Surely the airline industry in general should pressure for transparency here?
As this is not an accident, but a deliberate shoot down of a civil airliner, if this had happened in the US, the FBI would have done the same.

This was not an accident, it was murder and the crash site is a crime scene, by the Ukrainian rebels looting and removing parts of the aircraft, one can only conclude a cover up.

Once again, as a NTSB trained aircraft accident investigator I am appalled by the treatment of this crash site.
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Old 19th Jul 2014, 23:34
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What would be important to know is whether the missile warhead was in front or behind the aircraft when it exploded because that may tell us something about the missile trajectory and hence launch point.
To my untrained eye the explosion was from behind the A/C if those pictures showing shrapnel hit were indeed shrapnel. I really don't know how that could be useful information though, just to many variables.

A spy satellite will know exactly where the missile was launched from and its trajectory, they use heat signature from the rocket plume. Not likely the general public will ever see that info though.
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Old 19th Jul 2014, 23:35
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I'm not much interested in the political sided comments in this thread.

The first things of interest are the examination of the wreckage by skilled investigators and parallel assessment of ATC tracks and any possible missile tracks.

From my view there is little the untrained rebels can do to destroy all the evidence either by intent or accident. The issue now is the ability to put trained investigators on-site and for the soldiers to keep their distance and prevent looting by others..

Meanwhile the first level mitigation is to avoid war zones where missiles of this capability may be operating.

After the confirmation from on-site the political aspects can be explored in some other forum.

Has anybody heard what the makeup of an investigating team will be and when they will arrive?

I would hope that the russians will be involved as well on this team.

right now we need facts not suspicions of motives and recriminatons
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