MH17 down near Donetsk
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Sydney
Age: 54
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Caygill, those 10 "questions" from RT are the most a ridiculous set of propaganda which is only believable for Russian apologists.
As for why Ukraine has did not wait for international observers before listing to ATC tapes, perhaps that is because it was under Ukranian ATC. If you want to talk about international observers, perhaps we can talk about why the Russian backed militia is preventing European crash investigators from accessing the scene.
And finally, here is a RT journalist who has resigned due to RTs factually wrong coverage of this destruction of a civilian airliner:
Russian TV reporter quits over crash coverage
As for why Ukraine has did not wait for international observers before listing to ATC tapes, perhaps that is because it was under Ukranian ATC. If you want to talk about international observers, perhaps we can talk about why the Russian backed militia is preventing European crash investigators from accessing the scene.
And finally, here is a RT journalist who has resigned due to RTs factually wrong coverage of this destruction of a civilian airliner:
Russian TV reporter quits over crash coverage
Join Date: Jun 1997
Location: 5530N
Posts: 845
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'd be very concerned re a cover up of evidence and wouldnt be suprised if the black boxes did a runner. It doesnt mask the plain fact that a civilian airliner was shot out of the sky.
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Gdansk, Poland
Age: 47
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
>>Those scars looks rather like something hit or slided on that surface - possibly other plane fragments hit that fragment when it was desintegrating in the air - than holes/marks left by small shrapnels from exploding warhead.
>That is also consistent with an expanding rod. It expands as a continuous ring to maximum diameter, typically 45-60 feet before separating. Rod may be inches to feet long.
It's possible that those are scars doen by rods skidding by the surface, but for me it's more likely than heavy steel rods moving at nearly 1000m/s would cut trough any plane surface like hot knife trough butter, leaving clean cuts and not scars, at any angle. For me it looks like something lighter (like other fragments of fuselage) collided with this fragment. Or maybe some parts of missile body other than the rods. I can be wrong though, it's hard to determine without doing some experiments with 1000m/s collisions... :-/.
>That is also consistent with an expanding rod. It expands as a continuous ring to maximum diameter, typically 45-60 feet before separating. Rod may be inches to feet long.
It's possible that those are scars doen by rods skidding by the surface, but for me it's more likely than heavy steel rods moving at nearly 1000m/s would cut trough any plane surface like hot knife trough butter, leaving clean cuts and not scars, at any angle. For me it looks like something lighter (like other fragments of fuselage) collided with this fragment. Or maybe some parts of missile body other than the rods. I can be wrong though, it's hard to determine without doing some experiments with 1000m/s collisions... :-/.
More than just an ATCO
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Up someone's nose
Age: 75
Posts: 1,768
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dutch tv just showing the investigators being threatened by rebel troops if they try to approach the main wreckage.
Seems a bit Obvious who's trying to hide a smoking gun
ienes thanks for the info on the Ts. I was about to ask the same question. Was the flight at FL330 on those days with the southerly routing or maybe stuck at FL290 and forced to route around
Seems a bit Obvious who's trying to hide a smoking gun
ienes thanks for the info on the Ts. I was about to ask the same question. Was the flight at FL330 on those days with the southerly routing or maybe stuck at FL290 and forced to route around
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: England
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It seems with what we're hearing in the news indicates that a proper independent investigation is increasingly unlikely. Looting of the bodies and refusing access to the site for the proper authorities is inexcusable.
Whether or not the action by the rebels is orchestrated by Moscow remains to be seen, however the rebels need to be reigned in.
It's more than likely that the Americans know exactly where the missile came from and probably who fired it. This information will no doubt be shared with the countries directly affected. The question is what will the governments do about it?
Whether or not the action by the rebels is orchestrated by Moscow remains to be seen, however the rebels need to be reigned in.
It's more than likely that the Americans know exactly where the missile came from and probably who fired it. This information will no doubt be shared with the countries directly affected. The question is what will the governments do about it?
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Geneva, Switzerland
Age: 69
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Air Jing
Caygill, those 10 "questions" from RT are the most a ridiculous set of propaganda which is only believable for Russian apologists.
As for why Ukraine has did not wait for international observers before listing to ATC tapes, perhaps that is because it was under Ukranian ATC. If you want to talk about international observers, perhaps we can talk about why the Russian backed militia is preventing European crash investigators from accessing the scene.
As for why Ukraine has did not wait for international observers before listing to ATC tapes, perhaps that is because it was under Ukranian ATC. If you want to talk about international observers, perhaps we can talk about why the Russian backed militia is preventing European crash investigators from accessing the scene.
In the meantime, what would be wrong with serious answers to those 10 qestions? If the implied allegations can be dispelled by means of those answers, what would be wrong with that?
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can asnwer RT's question 1 straight away: Ukraine immediately blamed separatists because on 17 July they have been celebrating shooting down of an airplane using "Buk" missile. Just go to Google and search for Украина Торез Сбит транспортный АН 26 and you will find dozens of Russian (!) news on "An-26 shot down by separatists using a missile" published just 30 mins before it became evident it was MH17...
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: UK
Age: 66
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Then expect a full scale fight for the wreckage. The separatists are edgy, semi-trained ( apart from a core of serving Russian military ) and they also know that they f*cked up. Sending any form of Western military would be utter lunacy. Additionally, three days have now passed. I bet that the area has been searched for remains of the warhead etc etc ......
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Finland
Age: 57
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry to specualate, but let's assume that the "rebels" actually shot down the plane, and nothing more to the story (no hiding fighters, etc).
These "rebels" are a very diverse gang. There are surely some gang-ho drunk hereos among them, but likewise there are some very hardcore battle hardened veterans from Afganistan, Chechnya, etc. Most importantly a significant amount of Ukranian forces defected or switched sides during the early stages of the conflict.
In short, there is no shortage among the "rebels" of people highly trained in these missile systems.
These "rebels" are a very diverse gang. There are surely some gang-ho drunk hereos among them, but likewise there are some very hardcore battle hardened veterans from Afganistan, Chechnya, etc. Most importantly a significant amount of Ukranian forces defected or switched sides during the early stages of the conflict.
In short, there is no shortage among the "rebels" of people highly trained in these missile systems.
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: In an ever changing place
Posts: 1,039
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OleOle
What would be the reasons to take a more northerly route this day?
What would be the reasons to take a more northerly route this day?
We fly over that area often as do many other carriers, because it was deemed safe to civil traffic the same as Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq and many others.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Nirvana..HAHA..just kidding but,if you can tell me where it is!
Posts: 350
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Shooting down of Ukrainian military aircraft at cruising altitude reflects ongoing es
So,given that this incident occured on July 14th,...
Pilots....you accept the Flight Plan!
Airline Navigation Departments,....you monitor and plan routes!
ICAO....you are responsible for advising us all!
There are plenty of people in the link,before the accountants.People who should be contributing to a safe operation.
My point here is...don't simply rely on the people above you in the link.
I don't need an official letter,addressed to me personally,to tell me that putting my hand into a flame will burn me!
Be Pro active!
How many airlines and airline pilots continued to overfly this area since July 14th!
Pilots....you accept the Flight Plan!
Airline Navigation Departments,....you monitor and plan routes!
ICAO....you are responsible for advising us all!
There are plenty of people in the link,before the accountants.People who should be contributing to a safe operation.
My point here is...don't simply rely on the people above you in the link.
I don't need an official letter,addressed to me personally,to tell me that putting my hand into a flame will burn me!
Be Pro active!
How many airlines and airline pilots continued to overfly this area since July 14th!
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: England
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MH17 down near Donetsk
Sky news have just reported the following;
Ukraine's counter-intelligence chief Vitaly Nada has said he has "compelling evidence" that Russian citizens were operating the missile battery that shot down MH17.
Not sure how the authorities would confirm this but it's not looking good for Russia
Ukraine's counter-intelligence chief Vitaly Nada has said he has "compelling evidence" that Russian citizens were operating the missile battery that shot down MH17.
Not sure how the authorities would confirm this but it's not looking good for Russia
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Mos Eisley
Posts: 168
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TEN QUESTIONS FOR THE UKRAINIAN AUTHORITIES
1. Immediately after the tragedy, the Ukrainian authorities, naturally, blamed it on the self-defense forces. What are these accusations based on?
2. Can Kiev explain in detail how it uses Buk missile launchers in the conflict zone? And why were these systems deployed there in the first place, seeing as the self-defense forces don’t have any planes?
3. Why are the Ukrainian authorities not doing anything to set up an international commission? When will such a commission begin its work?
4. Would the Ukrainian Armed Forces be willing to let international investigators see the inventory of their air-to-air and surface-to-air missiles, including those used in SAM launchers?
5. Will the international commission have access to tracking data from reliable sources regarding the movements of Ukrainian warplanes on the day of the tragedy?
6. Why did Ukrainian air traffic controllers allow the plane to deviate from the regular route to the north, towards “the anti-terrorist operation zone”?
7. Why was airspace over the warzone not closed for civilian flights, especially since the area was not entirely covered by radar navigation systems?
8. How can official Kiev comment on reports in the social media, allegedly by a Spanish air traffic controller who works in Ukraine, that there were two Ukrainian military planes flying alongside the Boeing 777 over Ukrainian territory?
9. Why did Ukraine’s Security Service start working with the recordings of communications between Ukrainian air traffic controllers and the Boeing crew and with the data storage systems from Ukrainian radars without waiting for international investigators?
10. What lessons has Ukraine learned from a similar incident in 2001, when a Russian Tu-154 crashed into the Black Sea? Back then, the Ukrainian authorities denied any involvement on the part of Ukraine’s Armed Forces until irrefutable evidence proved official Kiev to be guilty.
1. Immediately after the tragedy, the Ukrainian authorities, naturally, blamed it on the self-defense forces. What are these accusations based on?
2. Can Kiev explain in detail how it uses Buk missile launchers in the conflict zone? And why were these systems deployed there in the first place, seeing as the self-defense forces don’t have any planes?
3. Why are the Ukrainian authorities not doing anything to set up an international commission? When will such a commission begin its work?
4. Would the Ukrainian Armed Forces be willing to let international investigators see the inventory of their air-to-air and surface-to-air missiles, including those used in SAM launchers?
5. Will the international commission have access to tracking data from reliable sources regarding the movements of Ukrainian warplanes on the day of the tragedy?
6. Why did Ukrainian air traffic controllers allow the plane to deviate from the regular route to the north, towards “the anti-terrorist operation zone”?
7. Why was airspace over the warzone not closed for civilian flights, especially since the area was not entirely covered by radar navigation systems?
8. How can official Kiev comment on reports in the social media, allegedly by a Spanish air traffic controller who works in Ukraine, that there were two Ukrainian military planes flying alongside the Boeing 777 over Ukrainian territory?
9. Why did Ukraine’s Security Service start working with the recordings of communications between Ukrainian air traffic controllers and the Boeing crew and with the data storage systems from Ukrainian radars without waiting for international investigators?
10. What lessons has Ukraine learned from a similar incident in 2001, when a Russian Tu-154 crashed into the Black Sea? Back then, the Ukrainian authorities denied any involvement on the part of Ukraine’s Armed Forces until irrefutable evidence proved official Kiev to be guilty.
These questions are so childish, that reminds me the boy with his dirty chocolate mouth, trying to blame his little brother for the stolen chocolate....
There are nearly 300 body needing to be identified, nearly 300 souls that need justice and nearly 300 families and beloved that need answers... And they are denying Osce inspectors access to the site..... True, they are not soldiers, they are criminals.
>>Those scars looks rather like something hit or slided on that surface - possibly other plane fragments hit that fragment when it was desintegrating in the air - than holes/marks left by small shrapnels from exploding warhead.
>That is also consistent with an expanding rod. It expands as a continuous ring to maximum diameter, typically 45-60 feet before separating. Rod may be inches to feet long.
It's possible that those are scars doen by rods skidding by the surface, but for me it's more likely than heavy steel rods moving at nearly 1000m/s would cut trough any plane surface like hot knife trough butter, leaving clean cuts and not scars, at any angle. For me it looks like something lighter (like other fragments of fuselage) collided with this fragment. Or maybe some parts of missile body other than the rods. I can be wrong though, it's hard to determine without doing some experiments with 1000m/s collisions... :-/.
>That is also consistent with an expanding rod. It expands as a continuous ring to maximum diameter, typically 45-60 feet before separating. Rod may be inches to feet long.
It's possible that those are scars doen by rods skidding by the surface, but for me it's more likely than heavy steel rods moving at nearly 1000m/s would cut trough any plane surface like hot knife trough butter, leaving clean cuts and not scars, at any angle. For me it looks like something lighter (like other fragments of fuselage) collided with this fragment. Or maybe some parts of missile body other than the rods. I can be wrong though, it's hard to determine without doing some experiments with 1000m/s collisions... :-/.
Last edited by MAINJAFAD; 19th Jul 2014 at 14:06.
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Germany
Age: 67
Posts: 1,777
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Dutch and Malaysians seem to have responded with a dignity and maturity to their loss of life.
But what is worthy of leaving the bodies of 189 fellow to the scavengers ... with just as response messages of condolence
What is the reaction of the EU ... other than messages of condolence?
How humiliating for this country and the families of victims !
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: In an ever changing place
Posts: 1,039
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nemrytter
It probably went to the North because there were many large CBs to the South along the usual route.
It probably went to the North because there were many large CBs to the South along the usual route.
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: russia
Age: 38
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Buk with one missile missing - where is was seen
Video with Buk launcher with one missile missing
Source is 100% pro-ukrainian, 100% putin-free.
However, there is one small problem with location.
It was shot at Krasnoarmeisk, Dnepropetrovskaya st. 40.
However, there is one small problem with location.
It was shot at Krasnoarmeisk, Dnepropetrovskaya st. 40.
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's clear that the conflict between the pro-Russians and the Ukraine government is of much more importance to the military 'personnel' on the ground than respect for nearly 300 innocent people - 80 children! - whose bodies are rotting in the fields. Irrespective of what happens to that bit of Ukraine in the future, it will be hard to forget the lack of basic humanity being displayed here.