MH17 down near Donetsk
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"Some energy from detonated warhead spent on axis destruction and freeze moment for engine part. It 30kg of RDX."
The warhead is in axis of the missile, the engine is massive and going Mach3. No reason to turn so sharply as if the warhead detonation was to the side of the engine, and not in axis.
On your picture the front part of the missile (seeker, electronics) went straight. Why didn't you draw it turning, too ?
In any video from practice missile interception the remains of the missile are continuing straight after warhead detonation, at least for hundred meters.
The warhead is in axis of the missile, the engine is massive and going Mach3. No reason to turn so sharply as if the warhead detonation was to the side of the engine, and not in axis.
On your picture the front part of the missile (seeker, electronics) went straight. Why didn't you draw it turning, too ?
In any video from practice missile interception the remains of the missile are continuing straight after warhead detonation, at least for hundred meters.
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blackbird69: TWA 800 and Hughes Airwest 709 remained in one piece while the cockpit was gone.
Neither TWA 800 nor Hughes Airwest 706 were at cruising altitude. TWA 800's center fuel tank exploded around 13,000 feet and Hughes Airwest 706 collided with a F-4 Phantom at about 15,000 feet. MH 17 was cruising at FL330, so the pressure differential between the cabin and outside was higher and sudden decompression would be more destructive.
Also, TWA 800 lost most of its fuselage ahead of the wing, and the rest of the aircraft progressively broke up as it descended.
Neither TWA 800 nor Hughes Airwest 706 were at cruising altitude. TWA 800's center fuel tank exploded around 13,000 feet and Hughes Airwest 706 collided with a F-4 Phantom at about 15,000 feet. MH 17 was cruising at FL330, so the pressure differential between the cabin and outside was higher and sudden decompression would be more destructive.
Also, TWA 800 lost most of its fuselage ahead of the wing, and the rest of the aircraft progressively broke up as it descended.
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"explosive decompression" myth
So what caused the breakup?
For example Aloha Airlines Flight 243 (AQ 243, AAH 243) was a scheduled Aloha Airlines flight between Hilo and Honolulu in Hawaii. On April 28, 1988, a Boeing 737-297 serving the flight suffered extensive damage after an explosive decompression in flight, but was able to land safely at Kahului Airport on Maui. There was one fatality, flight attendant Clarabelle "C.B." Lansing, who was swept overboard from the airplane. Another 65 passengers and crew were injured.
The safe landing of the aircraft despite the substantial damage inflicted by the decompression established Aloha Airlines Flight 243 as a significant event in the history of aviation, with far-reaching effects on aviation safety policies and procedures. look at the photos !!
Look at United Airlines Flight 811 cargo door failure for another example
Turkish Airlines Flight 981 cargo door faiied- but the plane crashed because the differential pressure between cabin and cargo failed the floor which cut or damaged or fouled up the control cables . Since that time, major vents in the floor to cargo area have been standard design practice.
MH 17 was hit by a missile- in the cockpit- and no doubt started a decompression process- but it was unlikely that the decompression did much structural damage in itself. Loss of control at 400 mph with a badly messed up aerodynamic shape most likely resulted in major climb, turn,yaw, spin, dive, roll flight path at many g's above design ultimate loads of around 3 gs or so.
Lets stay focused on who fired the missle, why, rather than bucu speculation as to the details of just what the final seconds of ' flight" were like - especially
without a detailed part analyis available only by investigators.
It was NOT pilot error, mechanical failure, design flaw, or any other unk unk failure affecting other aircraft or that model.
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Or you do what El-Al does, you equip your 737th with chaff and flare.
Larger missile systems like the Buk/SA-11, Patriot, or SM-2 have a Pk greater than 0.5 against small military jets with chaff, flares, RWR, ECM, EECM, etc. that can maneuver at or above human G limits. Current military doctrine combines careful route planning, terrain masking, stealth and mutual support to avoid highly capable systems whenever possible. Any airliner operating within the engagement zone survives only if the missile operator chooses NOT to fire.
Questions about how to design aircraft to survive missile attacks have resulted in the A-10 and SU-25 designs. The economics of operating either the single A-10B or the few remaining Su-25UBs as a single passenger aircraft are intuitively obvious.
First reponder report
Here's a short piece by a Canadian (of Ukrainian descent) who was the senior OSCE person onsite in those first few days.
First responder: What I saw at MH17 crash site - CNN.com
First responder: What I saw at MH17 crash site - CNN.com
Posted this question a day or so back but it was deleted for no apparent reason. Very soon after the shoot down, the US reported that the had incontravertable imagery that proved the rebels were responsible.
Why are there still qestions being asked about method and responsibility if this evedence exists ?
Why are there still qestions being asked about method and responsibility if this evedence exists ?
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Then why release a story that you know exactly how and from whence came the missile in the first place ??
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Please read the original Text which is postet here: (Dutch Safety Board)
Dutch Safety Board | Investigations & Publication | Investigation crash MH17, 17 July 2014
Dutch Safety Board | Investigations & Publication | Investigation crash MH17, 17 July 2014
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This report is worth reading in its entirety to understand how the investigation is being carried out.
Dutch Safety Board | Investigations & Publication | Investigation crash MH17, 17 July 2014
The feedback is usually included in the final report. Sometimes a report may be modified to take relevant feedback into account. They wilol not be allowed to get any ofit classfied. They are not planning to release the whole CVR or FDR contents.
This is a crash investigation only. Any country in any way involved may undertake their own criminal investigations and lay charges. ATC records would be relevant therefore probably handed over. USA supposed satellite images would not be relevant, so probably not even asked for.
I believe that in the interests of political stability in the region, there will be no criminal investigation. After all an outcast/outlaw group is already publicly blamed for it, and it is also widely believed to have been accidental, ie mistaken identity. No individual can be identified, nor a chain of command (which given the situation probably didn't exist). Shocking and sad as the downing of MH17 was, it is not worth starting a world war about.
Governments may be told. The public is the peanut gallery. We have no claims to "need to know".
Dutch Safety Board | Investigations & Publication | Investigation crash MH17, 17 July 2014
The following countries have contributed (to a greater or lesser extent) to the international investigation team into the crash of flight MH17: Ukraine, Malaysia, Australia, Russia, the United Kingdom, the United States, Germany, France, Italy and Indonesia. The ICAO and the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) also contributed to the investigation as organisations. The leadership of the investigation rests with the Dutch Safety Board, which will publish both the preliminary and final report. The countries that have a formal role as participants in the investigation under the ICAO agreement will be given access to the draft reports, and may provide feedback. The country leading the investigation may offer other countries access to the draft reports at its discretion.
This is a crash investigation only. Any country in any way involved may undertake their own criminal investigations and lay charges. ATC records would be relevant therefore probably handed over. USA supposed satellite images would not be relevant, so probably not even asked for.
I believe that in the interests of political stability in the region, there will be no criminal investigation. After all an outcast/outlaw group is already publicly blamed for it, and it is also widely believed to have been accidental, ie mistaken identity. No individual can be identified, nor a chain of command (which given the situation probably didn't exist). Shocking and sad as the downing of MH17 was, it is not worth starting a world war about.
And why not?? Apart from people on this forum there are actually governments around the world that want to know what US intelligence thinks in this matter.
Last edited by KatSLF; 25th Aug 2014 at 09:53. Reason: adding other quote & reply
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Dutch Safety Board | Investigations & Publication | Investigation crash MH17, 17 July 2014
ATC recordings seem to play no role in the preliminary report?
ATC recordings seem to play no role in the preliminary report?
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Dutch Safety Board
ATC recordings seem to play no role in the preliminary report?
ATC recordings seem to play no role in the preliminary report?
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I can imagine that Dutch Safety Board may more trust CVR than voice records from Ukrainian ATC.
Significant in the report is that the say Ukrainian crash investigators did spend a few hours at the site in the first days. Unknown to anyone. Maybe the didn't tell the "guards" who they are.
So they probably would have obtained the ATC tapes. Ukraine is part of the investigation team, so they wold have taken the ATC tapes with them, I assume. It is not likely to show anything relevant, except perhaps settle the conspiracy about MH17 being deliberately vectored into a trap.
Under Dutch law they won't be publishing the whole CVR transcript, unlike American investigations.
Grif,
You really are looking hard for a reason to be critical. Perhaps too hard.
Perhaps the intel was not imagery, but other sorts of intel on missile systems/launches.
We shall see, in due course. Over time, a lot of stuff gets released as its classification level is decreased.
The point that needs to be raised again and again, when the question of "how do you prevent this" gets asked.
Modern missile systems versus passenger plane yields one shot down passenger plane, unless the missile system operator screws up, or there is a technical glitch/malfunction with the weapon.
The uncomfortable truth: what they can do is limited by the practicalities of power and politics. 
Same is true for Malaysia.
Whilst I fully agree with your views on the diminished credibility of "information" and "intelligence" stemming from the US, I find it difficult to understand why they would enhance this reputation by issuing statements relating to the source of the attack so soon and yet not provide any evidence.On the face of things, it appears like a move designed to provoke.
Perhaps the intel was not imagery, but other sorts of intel on missile systems/launches.
We shall see, in due course. Over time, a lot of stuff gets released as its classification level is decreased.
Any airliner operating within the engagement zone survives only if the missile operator chooses NOT to fire.
Modern missile systems versus passenger plane yields one shot down passenger plane, unless the missile system operator screws up, or there is a technical glitch/malfunction with the weapon.
In reality no one actually cares anymore, its all last week's problem. The Dutch are just going to have to take it up the ass because there is nothing they can do.
Same is true for Malaysia.
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Apart from people on this forum there are actually governments around the world that want to know what US intelligence thinks in this matter.
. Public opinion, though, is .
No individual can be identified, nor a chain of command (which given the situation probably didn't exist). Shocking and sad as the downing of MH17 was, it is not worth starting a world war about.
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Significant in the report is that the say Ukrainian crash investigators did spend a few hours at the site in the first days. Unknown to anyone.
Immediately following the crash of flight MH17, aviation investigators from Ukraine began investigating the cause of the accident.
...
on the days following the incident ... Ukrainian aviation investigators visited the crash site briefly several times
...
on the days following the incident ... Ukrainian aviation investigators visited the crash site briefly several times
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I believe that in the interests of political stability in the region, there will be no criminal investigation.
For any accident on dutch soil that would be the standard proceeding.
Considering the circumstances and the majority of the casualties being Dutch I understand international law gives the Netherlands the possibility here as well.
I doubt if it will have any practical value or anyone will ever be brought before
court but last week the prosecutors office announced the investigation is the biggest ever in its kind in the Netherlands.
Currently there are 10 prosecutors and 200 investigators in all kinds of fields on the case.
Unfortunately only in dutch:
strafrechtelijk onderzoek mh17 ramp grootste ooit
prosecutors office
BTW under dutch law I believe a CVR can not be used for a criminal investigation
