NTSB update on Asiana 214
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Huge difference between flight crew and fire crew.
Flight crew were flying a fully functional plane with no problems except the ones they created by their inability to safely fly and land. Something any pilot with a license should be able to safely do on he day in question.
Fire crew were responding to a crash trying to put out fire and save lives. Has SFPD ever responded to anything similar to this crash?
No defending them. Just trying show a little perspective here.
Flight crew were flying a fully functional plane with no problems except the ones they created by their inability to safely fly and land. Something any pilot with a license should be able to safely do on he day in question.
Fire crew were responding to a crash trying to put out fire and save lives. Has SFPD ever responded to anything similar to this crash?
No defending them. Just trying show a little perspective here.
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The fire crew wouldn't have even been there if the pilots hadn't totally screwed up an easy visual approach on a clear day. The fire crew didn't put the body in harms way, the pilots did.
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The thing to note is that I believe this footage was taken when the trucks were tackling the resurgent fire, after the evacuation was long over.
Did the truck crew know that? Did their chief? Did anyone?
It really doesn't appear to be a case of them arriving at full speed to potentially save hundreds of lives, and getting mixed up with some runners in smoke and chaos, leading to an unfortunate casualty: it looks like a case of driving about gently, with guides on foot, many minutes later.
It also doesn't look like a random city fire truck turning up to help, and being out of its trained comfort zone, since it looks like it had a huge foam monitor on the front.
There's been blood…
Now there will be lawyers…
Did the truck crew know that? Did their chief? Did anyone?
It really doesn't appear to be a case of them arriving at full speed to potentially save hundreds of lives, and getting mixed up with some runners in smoke and chaos, leading to an unfortunate casualty: it looks like a case of driving about gently, with guides on foot, many minutes later.
It also doesn't look like a random city fire truck turning up to help, and being out of its trained comfort zone, since it looks like it had a huge foam monitor on the front.
There's been blood…
Now there will be lawyers…
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And yet bubbers is prepared to let the SWA pilots off, with a "we all make mistakes". The SWA pilots were very very lucky not to dump their 737 into a ravine due to an error that rivals the magnitude of the asiana pilots error.
And mate. Just becuase someone stuffs up doesn't give carte blanche for everyone else following to just callously disregard human life.
And mate. Just becuase someone stuffs up doesn't give carte blanche for everyone else following to just callously disregard human life.
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Quite so, Lomapaseo. Making practical improvements isn't really lawyers' role - it's getting piles of cash for their clients. If that motivates the former owners' of the money to make practical and sensible changes, then that's an improvement. Unfortunately, those changes often tend to be impractical and cosmetic - to reduce the future impact of lawyers, rather than accidents.
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Lurker
you are right the southwest pilots were lucky they didn't fall off into a ravine.
and the asiana pilots were not lucky that they crashed their plane.
maybe it is luck.
But sometimes it is luck. And sometimes it is your priorities in flying.
Long ago someone came up with:
Aviate
Navigate
Communicate
The Asiana crew didn't aviate well.
the southwest crew didn't navigate well.
you are right the southwest pilots were lucky they didn't fall off into a ravine.
and the asiana pilots were not lucky that they crashed their plane.
maybe it is luck.
But sometimes it is luck. And sometimes it is your priorities in flying.
Long ago someone came up with:
Aviate
Navigate
Communicate
The Asiana crew didn't aviate well.
the southwest crew didn't navigate well.
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SFO's fire departement review by the NTSB
The inventor of the "competent all-american mistake made in good faith", Bubbers44, in his relentless fight against -foreign- incompetence, remarked that " The fire crew didn't put the body in harms way, the pilots did."
Pushing this logic “ad absurdum”, shouldn’t the parents of this hapless girl be designated as the ultimate culprits? Had they not conceived her… etc…
More seriously, we all recognise that in life-threatening emergency situations, potentially bad things can and do happen. I certainly don’t suggest that rescuers should be systematically thrown under the bus when overlooking certain aspects related to an emergency. But potential shortcomings should be analysed and lessons learned from them.
What I find disturbing in the case of the Asiana crash is the level of denial that has from the start surrounded the performance of the SFO’s fire department. And all the publicly available evidence (witness testimony, CCTV recordings, helmet-mounted camera footage) suggests that that performance was less-than-stellar. This is probably where the real issue lies.
Again, as I pointed out previously, the first reaction of Chief Joanne Hayes-White was to ban helmet-mounted cameras and take disciplinary action against the Battalion Chief wearing it. The footage recorded by the BC is precisely today a central element of the NTSB’s enquiry and Ms Hayes-White’s reaction amounted to a desire to supress critical evidence, a most unwelcome attitude for any emergency professional.
However, I am certain that under the rather firm and uncompromising leadership of Deborah Hersman, the NTSB will take a long, hard and fair look at the overall performance of the SFO’s fire department. And that’s how it should be.
Pushing this logic “ad absurdum”, shouldn’t the parents of this hapless girl be designated as the ultimate culprits? Had they not conceived her… etc…
More seriously, we all recognise that in life-threatening emergency situations, potentially bad things can and do happen. I certainly don’t suggest that rescuers should be systematically thrown under the bus when overlooking certain aspects related to an emergency. But potential shortcomings should be analysed and lessons learned from them.
What I find disturbing in the case of the Asiana crash is the level of denial that has from the start surrounded the performance of the SFO’s fire department. And all the publicly available evidence (witness testimony, CCTV recordings, helmet-mounted camera footage) suggests that that performance was less-than-stellar. This is probably where the real issue lies.
Again, as I pointed out previously, the first reaction of Chief Joanne Hayes-White was to ban helmet-mounted cameras and take disciplinary action against the Battalion Chief wearing it. The footage recorded by the BC is precisely today a central element of the NTSB’s enquiry and Ms Hayes-White’s reaction amounted to a desire to supress critical evidence, a most unwelcome attitude for any emergency professional.
However, I am certain that under the rather firm and uncompromising leadership of Deborah Hersman, the NTSB will take a long, hard and fair look at the overall performance of the SFO’s fire department. And that’s how it should be.
Last edited by Agnostique75; 18th Jan 2014 at 12:42.
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agnostique 75
bubbers 44 has an on going fight against incompetence, but I would not say it is against foreign incompetence.
San Francisco fire fighters are among the very best in the world. They have a tradition that only is rivaled in America by the Chicago fire department.
IF THIS WERE A FIREFIGHTERS forum instead of a forum for professional pilots you might feel more at home.
bubbers 44 has an on going fight against incompetence, but I would not say it is against foreign incompetence.
San Francisco fire fighters are among the very best in the world. They have a tradition that only is rivaled in America by the Chicago fire department.
IF THIS WERE A FIREFIGHTERS forum instead of a forum for professional pilots you might feel more at home.
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NTSB's review of SFO's FD
Glendalegoon,
I’m certain that Bubbers44 is able to take as much as he gives and as far as his –not so- rampant xenophobia and his relative indulgence for US "mishaps" are concerned, his track record speaks volumes.
But let’s not get distracted. Together with the performance –or lack thereof- of the flight crew, already much discussed on this forum, the NTSB will also review the performance of the SFO’s fire department. And this seems to be difficult to accept for some members.
Your praise of the “ San Francisco fire fighters (that) are among the very best in the world (and who) have a tradition that only is rivaled (sic) in America by the Chicago fire department” would indeed be most welcome on a firefighters forum, although I believe that many non-San Francisco based American emergency professionals would take issue with such a statement.
But my point is elsewhere. First, the distinction between crew performance and rescue-related performance is only normal. Let me try to explain: If, dead drunk, I smash my car in a tree, this should not constitute an excuse for my garage to repair it poorly.
As I have said over and over again, mistakes happen. What is puzzling is the attitude off the SFO’s fire department Chief. Denial, sanctions taken against a subordinate who –most certainly inadvertently- documented potential shortcomings, a ban on useful forensic tools used by law enforcement professionals around the world, all this smacks more of a desire to cover up an unpleasant reality rather than facing it, analysing it and drawing lessons for the future. And this should be a legitimate concern for all those involved in aviation, crews and passengers alike.
I am convinced the NTSB is not biased against the SOF’s FD and we could may be discuss this issue again once its report is out. And while I would not rule out a tar and feather episode, I will agree with you that this won’t take anything away from the dedication of individual emergency professionals in San Francisco, the US or anywhere else in the world.
At the same time, I hope that you are also prepared to accept that a degree of positive criticism might be part of this report.
I’m certain that Bubbers44 is able to take as much as he gives and as far as his –not so- rampant xenophobia and his relative indulgence for US "mishaps" are concerned, his track record speaks volumes.
But let’s not get distracted. Together with the performance –or lack thereof- of the flight crew, already much discussed on this forum, the NTSB will also review the performance of the SFO’s fire department. And this seems to be difficult to accept for some members.
Your praise of the “ San Francisco fire fighters (that) are among the very best in the world (and who) have a tradition that only is rivaled (sic) in America by the Chicago fire department” would indeed be most welcome on a firefighters forum, although I believe that many non-San Francisco based American emergency professionals would take issue with such a statement.
But my point is elsewhere. First, the distinction between crew performance and rescue-related performance is only normal. Let me try to explain: If, dead drunk, I smash my car in a tree, this should not constitute an excuse for my garage to repair it poorly.
As I have said over and over again, mistakes happen. What is puzzling is the attitude off the SFO’s fire department Chief. Denial, sanctions taken against a subordinate who –most certainly inadvertently- documented potential shortcomings, a ban on useful forensic tools used by law enforcement professionals around the world, all this smacks more of a desire to cover up an unpleasant reality rather than facing it, analysing it and drawing lessons for the future. And this should be a legitimate concern for all those involved in aviation, crews and passengers alike.
I am convinced the NTSB is not biased against the SOF’s FD and we could may be discuss this issue again once its report is out. And while I would not rule out a tar and feather episode, I will agree with you that this won’t take anything away from the dedication of individual emergency professionals in San Francisco, the US or anywhere else in the world.
At the same time, I hope that you are also prepared to accept that a degree of positive criticism might be part of this report.
Last edited by Agnostique75; 18th Jan 2014 at 15:36.
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Glendalegoon
You talk about the traditions of SFFD and Chicago FD- I assume you are referencing the Great Chicago Fire of 1871 and SF earthquake of 1906. What do these historical incidents over 100 years old have to do with ARFF in 2013?
You familiar with a water cannon salute? I watched a SFO FD water cannon unit fire foam during a salute in 2012. That doesn't mean that all SFO FD water cannon drivers are incompetent, just that at any one time, someone can fcuk up.
In any case, the command of SFO FD ought to be the issue.
You familiar with a water cannon salute? I watched a SFO FD water cannon unit fire foam during a salute in 2012. That doesn't mean that all SFO FD water cannon drivers are incompetent, just that at any one time, someone can fcuk up.
In any case, the command of SFO FD ought to be the issue.
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The SF AIRPORT FD/ARFF crews made a mistake while responding to an emergency.
The crew of Asiana made a mistake while conducting the most basic kind of landing.
Asiana had all the time its fuel allowed to make a good landing.
ARFF at SFO had minutes to attempt to help those in trouble.
YES, ARFF/SFO made a huge mistake.
AS to traditions. Being a native born SF I can assure you that we are reminded every year during the ceremonial painting of the golden fire hydrant. And if you don't know what this means, you can look it up yourself.
Sadly, the traditions of ARFF/SF FD fell short.
Even sadder the traditions at Asiana never existed in the first place, at least with regard to the most basic type of landing there is.
The crew of Asiana made a mistake while conducting the most basic kind of landing.
Asiana had all the time its fuel allowed to make a good landing.
ARFF at SFO had minutes to attempt to help those in trouble.
YES, ARFF/SFO made a huge mistake.
AS to traditions. Being a native born SF I can assure you that we are reminded every year during the ceremonial painting of the golden fire hydrant. And if you don't know what this means, you can look it up yourself.
Sadly, the traditions of ARFF/SF FD fell short.
Even sadder the traditions at Asiana never existed in the first place, at least with regard to the most basic type of landing there is.
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From reviewing the documents NTSB has disclosed so far, the teen in question almost certainly: (1) was not wearing her seat belt,(2) was violently ejected from the rear of the plane,(3) was fatally injured before any fire crews reached the scene (although her heart may not yet have ceased beating), and (4) was unconscious and thankfully unaware of the additional injuries inflicted by the fire truck(s).That doesn't excuse errors made during the response, or erase the family's loss, but let's be wary of buying into the "she survived the crash, only to be killed by the fire crew" tale being hyped by certain media (and personal injury lawyers). In all probability the young lady was already near death and would not have survived regardless of what the fire crew did (or did not do).
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I had assumed that she'd been assisted out of aircraft and had then been forgotten/abandoned and subsequently run over. If she flew there outside the aircraft, then having made her way forward of the wing, it does imply that her outlook was rather bleaker.
Given the damage to the rear of the aircraft, it's also not completely impossible that she could still have been ejected while wearing a seatbelt. And... being foolishly unsecured in no way justifies a death sentence… do we see a cabin crew as lax as the flight crew?
I have a great deal of sympathy for the general rescue firefighter's position, traveling to the accident at 80mph in a 60 ton truck. They stand with the ability to potentially save hundreds of lives on the very rare occasion they are called, and never see a real live event in training. With time of the essence, road accidents sometimes occur on the way to regular city fires too.
Given the damage to the rear of the aircraft, it's also not completely impossible that she could still have been ejected while wearing a seatbelt. And... being foolishly unsecured in no way justifies a death sentence… do we see a cabin crew as lax as the flight crew?
I have a great deal of sympathy for the general rescue firefighter's position, traveling to the accident at 80mph in a 60 ton truck. They stand with the ability to potentially save hundreds of lives on the very rare occasion they are called, and never see a real live event in training. With time of the essence, road accidents sometimes occur on the way to regular city fires too.
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I notice the people that post most of the negative views are mostly foreign. The rescue team went out to save lives after an airliner crashed for no reason other than they lacked basic flying skills. US pilots can't be certified to fly until they show basic airmanship skills like doing a visual approach by looking out the window. Why do they have such a problem doing the same in some cases?
Why do they have such a problem doing the same in some cases?
The above may sound like too much of a generalisation. But it is very close to the truth. This inevitably leads to the situation where hand flying is avoided like the plague. The Boeing 777 Asian crash at SFO is the tip of the iceberg. As a Boeing test pilot once told a colleague about the 787 design. He said "The Boeing 787 was designed on the basis it will be flown by incompetent pilots. Hence the numerous automatic protection systems in place".
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Centaurus, yes, I thought that might be the reason. Thanks. It is slowly creeping into our US training also for the new hires. Management wants low cost pilots with minimum training costs.
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I think the question most are missing is - how did she end up there in the first place? Given the positioning in front of the wing (and that the other ejected passengers and crew were to the rear of the craft) it seems unlikely she was thrown there in the crash. Presumably the autopsy might shed some light on whether or not she could have escaped down the slide on her own. The third possibility is that someone brought her out and left her there, apparently alone. If that's the case, I suspect the individual is keeping their mouth shut for fear of being sued.