NTSB update on Asiana 214
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Really, who checked??
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I saw the Carry No News piece on this a few hours back, a bit of a lawyer fest to be honest. I'm sure the first responders were trying to do the best they could.....is the idea that "carp happens, we really will learn from this" an outmoded mindset?
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Well none of those four bullet points listed above, unfortunately, lists investigating if gung-ho fire truck drivers ran over and killed survivors from the accident, so I presume that's been airbrushed out.
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This Fire Department, like every other, needs as much help as we can can give. One thing they don't need it litigation. This robs the system of cash, drives pathetic managers to hide evidence or force non-collection and will serve no one, except for the filthy lawyers.
The news report that I saw implied that the video was provided by the victim's family lawyer(s). If true, I'm confident the video has been professionally edited to make the first responders look as bad as humanly possible. 
I have little doubt that the victims family will see little of any resultant settlement, the lions share will go to the lawyers and their minions.
I have little doubt that the victims family will see little of any resultant settlement, the lions share will go to the lawyers and their minions.
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Cross check system is good cockpit management
bamboo
if the pilot allowed the copilot to fly plane too slowly for safety, is it the copilot's fault?
or is it the captain's fault?
so too with any aircraft system...if the pilot allows the autothrottles to maintain speed, but the authothrottles do not maintain speed, who is at fault?
and if the pilot has asked the autothrottles to maintain speed incorrectly, who is at fault?
THERE ARE TWO PILOTS. CROSS CHECKS (DOUBLE AND TRIPPLE) AVERT THINGS GOING OFF THE RAILS !
if the pilot allowed the copilot to fly plane too slowly for safety, is it the copilot's fault?
or is it the captain's fault?
so too with any aircraft system...if the pilot allows the autothrottles to maintain speed, but the authothrottles do not maintain speed, who is at fault?
and if the pilot has asked the autothrottles to maintain speed incorrectly, who is at fault?
THERE ARE TWO PILOTS. CROSS CHECKS (DOUBLE AND TRIPPLE) AVERT THINGS GOING OFF THE RAILS !
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Obviously all three pilots were at fault and none should be absolved of responsibility for properly piloting their aircraft. The FO should have known how to do a visual, the captain should have monitored and the check aiman should have been a check airman, not an observer.
Seating plan
@bubbers44
My memory of reports says that the Trainee Captain was in the left hand seat, the Training Captain was in the RH seat and the FO was in the seat behind.
I have never been much of a pilot but that arrangement was a surprise to me. For some reason I had assumed that the Training Captain would have been behind instructing on Captainy bits with the normal crew at the controls. They can already fly?
Well apparently not;-)
The FO should have known how to do a visual, the captain should have monitored and the check airman should have been a check airman
I have never been much of a pilot but that arrangement was a surprise to me. For some reason I had assumed that the Training Captain would have been behind instructing on Captainy bits with the normal crew at the controls. They can already fly?
Well apparently not;-)
What I can't get my head around is the attitude from those in the posts above from the accident nation, which is unbridled criticism for the aircrew involved, and yet the complete opposite, every justification and platitude imaginable for the fire truck crew.
@ WHBM...
Although I somewhat agree with you, there is a major difference between the two accidents.
- The pilots have continuous training on how to perform their duties.
- The pilots work in a very controlled environment. They have their airline
behind them to help out on various phases of flight. In other words they
are well supervised or surrounded in their duties.
- The pilots have specific SOPs.
- The pilots should be able to complete a visual approach to an airport with
VFR conditions.
- Not sure the firemen get as much training as pilots.
- Not sure if the SFFD as SOPs.
- Not so sure Firemen are well supervised or surrounded in their duties.
- The pilots have continuous training on how to perform their duties.
- The pilots work in a very controlled environment. They have their airline
behind them to help out on various phases of flight. In other words they
are well supervised or surrounded in their duties.
- The pilots have specific SOPs.
- The pilots should be able to complete a visual approach to an airport with
VFR conditions.
- Not sure the firemen get as much training as pilots.
- Not sure if the SFFD as SOPs.
- Not so sure Firemen are well supervised or surrounded in their duties.
Last edited by Jet Jockey A4; 17th Jan 2014 at 19:15.
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Society expects pilots to perform professionally using clearly defined procedures together with their knowledge and experience in order to protect their charges. Failure to do so rightly results in investigation.
Exactly the same applies to the emergency services.
Exactly the same applies to the emergency services.
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SOPs may have their validity in a standard situation, such as landing a plane, but are in many ways useless in an accident situation where every accident situation is VERY unique. I do not mean that emergency responders have no plans for potential situations, but that those plans can only help to do things better and not train how to do it perfectly based on having face that exact situation before.
Hypothetical situation based on mental calculations and incomplete knowledge: Would you move one person far away from a burning aircraft for fear of a 10% chance of being run over by a fire truck and thus allow for another person's risk of burning to death on the plane to increase from 10% to 50%?
TME
Hypothetical situation based on mental calculations and incomplete knowledge: Would you move one person far away from a burning aircraft for fear of a 10% chance of being run over by a fire truck and thus allow for another person's risk of burning to death on the plane to increase from 10% to 50%?
TME
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Originally Posted by WHBM
What I can't get my head around is the attitude from those in the posts above from the accident nation, which is unbridled criticism for the aircrew involved, and yet the complete opposite, every justification and platitude imaginable for the fire truck crew.
WHBM, I have no sympathy for the emergency personnel whatsoever. Their actions are inexcusable.
Originally Posted by KiloMikePapa
1 The girl was located before she was covered with foam
2 The girl was wrongly assumed to be dead after a 3 sec (!) evaluation
3 The girl was not moved into a safe zone
4 Firefighter command was not informed in time about the girl
Asiana crash video: 'Firefighters saw the 16-year-old girl before she was run over' - Americas - World - The Independent
These firefighters are trained and paid to act professionally as most of us are - did they?
Put yourself in place of the parents/friends/relatives? How would you feel about this?
2 The girl was wrongly assumed to be dead after a 3 sec (!) evaluation
3 The girl was not moved into a safe zone
4 Firefighter command was not informed in time about the girl
Asiana crash video: 'Firefighters saw the 16-year-old girl before she was run over' - Americas - World - The Independent
These firefighters are trained and paid to act professionally as most of us are - did they?
Put yourself in place of the parents/friends/relatives? How would you feel about this?
In light of the new footage being released, this has prompted Ye Meng's parents to file a claim against the city and county of San Francisco, claiming that emergency responders “were grossly negligent” in their work.
The family's attorney detailed the reasons for the claim, saying that the emergency workers had: “failed to move her to a safe location, failed to mark her location; failed to protect her from moving vehicles in the vicinity of the Aircraft where it was known that vehicles would be traveling; failed to alert commanders at the scene; and/or abandoned Ye Meng Yuan in a perilous location.”
The family's attorney detailed the reasons for the claim, saying that the emergency workers had: “failed to move her to a safe location, failed to mark her location; failed to protect her from moving vehicles in the vicinity of the Aircraft where it was known that vehicles would be traveling; failed to alert commanders at the scene; and/or abandoned Ye Meng Yuan in a perilous location.”
Why didn't one of the EMS responders attend to the girl? There weren't overwhelming numbers of significant injuries to other passengers, and it appears there were many EMS personnel on scene.
I would like to know how the coroner determined the girl was still alive when she was run over. I'm assuming she had some visible and significant injuries, and thus when someone checked to see if she was alive they quickly determined she was already dead.
More details about the "three second" assessment would be informative. I have seen more than one body at a fatality accident that didn't take more than three seconds to confirm the person had expired, but in this case there isn't enough detail to comment about that.
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Ho-Hum-Tally-Ho!
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WHBM
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What I can't get my head around is the attitude from those in the posts above from the accident nation, which is unbridled criticism for the aircrew involved, and yet the complete opposite, every justification and platitude imaginable for the fire truck crew.
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Location: London UK
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What I can't get my head around is the attitude from those in the posts above from the accident nation, which is unbridled criticism for the aircrew involved, and yet the complete opposite, every justification and platitude imaginable for the fire truck crew.