NTSB update on Asiana 214
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Alaska, PNG, etc.
Age: 60
Posts: 1,550
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Barit1 posted a very clear, simple, easily understood answer to that question. Why do you keep repeating a question that has already been answered?
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Oakland, CA
Age: 72
Posts: 427
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
why is dispatch with the ILS unserviceable on the anticipated landing runway allowed
Is the concept of a "sidestep" ILS approach still used in the USA ?
I recall being cleared for an ILS to Rwy 24L at LAX, but cleared to break off at my discretion, when visual and inside the Outer Marker ( I think - over 30 yrs ago ) so Shock ! Horror ! at fairly low level and close in, 'sidestep' to land MANUALLY and VISUALLY on 24R.
No 'Glass' cockpit of course, so no chance to go heads down pushing buttons to set up a mythical ILS Magenta Line for 24R, just fly the beast.
No problem, and I actually quite enjoyed it !
Therefore, couldn't Asiana have been cleared for a 'sidestep' ILS approach to 28R with a landing on 28L ? tho', seeing what they did with a straight in to 28L, one does wonder how they would have coped with a 'sidesep'!!
I recall being cleared for an ILS to Rwy 24L at LAX, but cleared to break off at my discretion, when visual and inside the Outer Marker ( I think - over 30 yrs ago ) so Shock ! Horror ! at fairly low level and close in, 'sidestep' to land MANUALLY and VISUALLY on 24R.
No 'Glass' cockpit of course, so no chance to go heads down pushing buttons to set up a mythical ILS Magenta Line for 24R, just fly the beast.
No problem, and I actually quite enjoyed it !
Therefore, couldn't Asiana have been cleared for a 'sidestep' ILS approach to 28R with a landing on 28L ? tho', seeing what they did with a straight in to 28L, one does wonder how they would have coped with a 'sidesep'!!
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: glendale
Posts: 819
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WHBM:
In the world of flying, you must follow the rules. The rules say if you have something wrong on an etops twin you should fix it before you go. In your example, the ILS receiver OTS. What would happen if something went wrong and you had to land in Alaska, or Seattle and the weather was below other approach minimums. You would need the ILS. And if it failed enroute you would have to have an alternative course of action.
But the ILS on the runway isn't needed UNLESS YOU NEED IT because you can't do the expected approach. By virtue of preflight wx briefing and ATIS somewhere out near point reyes, you would know you have the choice of a visual approach or asking for something else.
Why did Asiana dispatch from Seoul to San Francisco knowing the ILS was ots on 28Left? Because every other airline in the world dispatched to San Francisco that day with the same knowledge. And none of them crashed.
Not airlines from China, or India, or Japan, or Australia, or France or Timbuktu.
Do you fly into SFO at all?
In the early 90's we dispatched into a domestic US airport that only had an NDB approach available. And we did it with onboard ADF. Part 121 major air carrier.
In the world of flying, you must follow the rules. The rules say if you have something wrong on an etops twin you should fix it before you go. In your example, the ILS receiver OTS. What would happen if something went wrong and you had to land in Alaska, or Seattle and the weather was below other approach minimums. You would need the ILS. And if it failed enroute you would have to have an alternative course of action.
But the ILS on the runway isn't needed UNLESS YOU NEED IT because you can't do the expected approach. By virtue of preflight wx briefing and ATIS somewhere out near point reyes, you would know you have the choice of a visual approach or asking for something else.
Why did Asiana dispatch from Seoul to San Francisco knowing the ILS was ots on 28Left? Because every other airline in the world dispatched to San Francisco that day with the same knowledge. And none of them crashed.
Not airlines from China, or India, or Japan, or Australia, or France or Timbuktu.
Do you fly into SFO at all?
In the early 90's we dispatched into a domestic US airport that only had an NDB approach available. And we did it with onboard ADF. Part 121 major air carrier.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: fl
Posts: 2,525
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WHBM is a primary reason we should shut down this thread. He doesn't seem to understand what a legal dispatch is and we all do. He won't stop posting his nonsense but won't listen to us.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Alaska, PNG, etc.
Age: 60
Posts: 1,550
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've done it quite a few times on the parallels at Anchorage, for various reasons. Can't say for sure that it's still a currently approved procedure as it's been 4-5 years since I did one, but the again I don't fly into and out of ANC as frequently as I used to.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: fl
Posts: 2,525
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
His latest stupid statement about needing his AC ILS operative at Seoul to take off but his known landing runway at SFO has one inop ILS shows he is not an airline pilot. We all know we need a take off alternate if IMC but SFO was clear with tons of alternates.
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Oakland, CA
Age: 72
Posts: 427
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
couldn't Asiana have been cleared for a 'sidestep' ILS approach to 28R with a landing on 28L ?
Last edited by olasek; 21st Jan 2014 at 00:20.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Paris
Age: 74
Posts: 275
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
pride vs. will to live
Having done hundreds of approaches to 28L never felt I was giving up a will to live to do a simple visual approach with no glide slope. Amazingly we never got low once and always touched down beyond the threshold with no risk of life. No pilot I have ever met has either. Why did you say that?
The press has reported NTSB was told by pilot he was "very concerned" *before* takeoff about the no-ILS landing he knew he needed to make. This shows the guy is neither an idiot nor a liar, and very conscious of limitations to his abilities.
Pilot who crashed at SFO worried about landing
As reported, it seems *he*, LEE KANG KUK could not request a change THAT DAY because of the check and cultural issues; however we would have a more realistic view of the real impact on safety of the lack of ILS on that runway at SFO if we knew whether this guy's colleagues -and others- had requested runway changes in the past.
Of course, political issues will probably intrude and impede such inquiries being made. No one likes telling their boss that they were the ones who lined up one of the holes in the cheese. It is less politically risky to say that a pilot crashed because he was not trained, than to say that one of a crowd of guys with low training was sooner or later not going to make it, and Asiana 714 was the one with the shortest straw.
Last edited by edmundronald; 21st Jan 2014 at 00:16.
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: glendale
Posts: 819
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
quoting from edmundronald:
this shows the guy is neither an idiot nor a liar, and very conscious of limitations to his abilities.
that you use this as any excuse or mitigation is astounding.
if he knew his limitations he would have called in sick that day. so he put his job above the safety of flight.
And this guy flew 747s into SFO before the 777.
I honestly believe I could put a 250 hour commercial multi engine pilot into the 777 without any preparation and tell him: LAND THIS PLANE AT THAT AIRPORT. DON"T GET SLOW
this shows the guy is neither an idiot nor a liar, and very conscious of limitations to his abilities.
that you use this as any excuse or mitigation is astounding.
if he knew his limitations he would have called in sick that day. so he put his job above the safety of flight.
And this guy flew 747s into SFO before the 777.
I honestly believe I could put a 250 hour commercial multi engine pilot into the 777 without any preparation and tell him: LAND THIS PLANE AT THAT AIRPORT. DON"T GET SLOW
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Alaska, PNG, etc.
Age: 60
Posts: 1,550
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok, he gets about half a point (out of a possible 100) for being aware he's grossly incompetent.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: fl
Posts: 2,525
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How did he know in Seoul that he would get 28L? He didn't of course because on approach to SFO we routinely got runway changes and accepted what we got because it did'nt matter. If he was that incompetent why did he pass a check ride?
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Oakland, CA
Age: 72
Posts: 427
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think he could have expected 28L even in Seoul. I think that most aircraft arriving on POINT REYES ONE or GOLDEN GATE SIX arrivals (far East or Europe) get assigned to 28L by default.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: San Jose
Posts: 727
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think he could have expected 28L even in Seoul. I think that most aircraft arriving on POINT REYES ONE or GOLDEN GATE SIX arrivals (far East or Europe) get assigned to 28L by default.