NTSB update on Asiana 214
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training one’s own crew members does not result in direct income … it only costs.
Originally Posted by twochai
What nonsense! "If you can't afford safety, just try an accident".
220mph – you’ve pretty well outlined the levels (plural) of frustration that most feel when actually looking and, specifically, understanding the problems (again, plural) that we face on a regular basis. The point I’ve been making is that whatever the ultimate solutions are determined to be … unless either the owners/managers of each airline voluntarily go along with those solutions (and you tell me the chances of that happening) …OR … the regulatory authority understands the problems and the issues … and makes the decided-upon solutions part of the minimum, regulatory requirements … those solutions are not likely to be incorporated into very many, if any, airline training programs.
Originally Posted by RAT 5
In the hope that the XAA's and the training departments take the initiative in this matter, before more smoking holes, we could be seeing "Back to the Future 3." Let's hope so.
NEW Video from Firefighters Helmetcam
So sad!
I feel terribly bad for all involved in this ground tragedy.
Perhaps in the future some sort of ground markers, like bright flags could be installed near a body whether alive or dead to avoid this situation.
I feel terribly bad for all involved in this ground tragedy.
Perhaps in the future some sort of ground markers, like bright flags could be installed near a body whether alive or dead to avoid this situation.
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that's really really poor. no excuses for that at all. there has to be better triage than a 3 sec visual.
no help to the parents, but surely the court case is just a matter of how many $ they get.
no help to the parents, but surely the court case is just a matter of how many $ they get.
@ diSetter...
Call it what you want but it is still a tragedy for all involved.
I'm sure the two drivers involved feel more than terrible about what happened. It is something they are going to live with for the rest of their lives.
In any case I agree with you that the little girl's body should have been moved out of the way and put in a better and safer location as to avoid this tragedy.
I also think that more care should have been taken in checking her out to see if she was indeed alive.
My comment/suggestion about ground markers was a means to facilitate the location of bodies (whether alive or dead) just in case it was SOP for a Fire department's post crash investigation not unlike a police investigation at a crime scene where nothing is moved.
Hopefully a full review by the SFFD and other agencies will bring about changes to their SOP as to avoid this in the future.
I'm sure the two drivers involved feel more than terrible about what happened. It is something they are going to live with for the rest of their lives.
In any case I agree with you that the little girl's body should have been moved out of the way and put in a better and safer location as to avoid this tragedy.
I also think that more care should have been taken in checking her out to see if she was indeed alive.
My comment/suggestion about ground markers was a means to facilitate the location of bodies (whether alive or dead) just in case it was SOP for a Fire department's post crash investigation not unlike a police investigation at a crime scene where nothing is moved.
Hopefully a full review by the SFFD and other agencies will bring about changes to their SOP as to avoid this in the future.
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I always try to keep in mind this kind of information is coming for the news media... many of which put a good story and ratings above truth. 
If, in fact, the the edited video shown in this new broadcast is accurate there are many people people besides the drivers who dropped the ball and will be asking themselves why they didn't check her out, move her, etc. for the rest of their lives.
If, in fact, the the edited video shown in this new broadcast is accurate there are many people people besides the drivers who dropped the ball and will be asking themselves why they didn't check her out, move her, etc. for the rest of their lives.
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agree with doyll that media do inflate the story to get higher ratings- they did mention the fireman had a "50 minute video" and the other camera on the firetruck probably had more- so it's the B-roll (extra footage) that we'd love to see to truly pass judgement on this tragedy.
Also in the new report was a mention of the family we're provided with the footage, so someone in the fire department felt sympathetic enough to give them the video in the first place- food for thought
Also in the new report was a mention of the family we're provided with the footage, so someone in the fire department felt sympathetic enough to give them the video in the first place- food for thought
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This is truly horrendous. If, as doyll mentions what we can see from the footage that we did get to see is accurate, then there are no excuses for this gross incompetence. I was under the impression off the bat that the girl must have been covered in foam, that's why she wasn't seen and run over......
This is truly horrific, either way!
This is truly horrific, either way!
The "gross incompetence" happened on the flight deck when a whole crew conclusively demonstrated they could not get the airplane to the end of the runway without crashing on a CLEAR day !
Responding to a burning crash will by definition be an exercise in chaos management requiring making decisions in a hurry with limited information. Those examining the first responders will have months or years to analyse a situation that the people on scene had to deal with in real time.
At the end of the day faults may be found and hopefully lessons learned whcih will allow other first responders to deal with horror of a major airfield crash.
But there IMO are no lessons to be learned when looking at the actions of the flight crew just a sad manifestation of utter incompetence at the most basic flying skills.
Responding to a burning crash will by definition be an exercise in chaos management requiring making decisions in a hurry with limited information. Those examining the first responders will have months or years to analyse a situation that the people on scene had to deal with in real time.
At the end of the day faults may be found and hopefully lessons learned whcih will allow other first responders to deal with horror of a major airfield crash.
But there IMO are no lessons to be learned when looking at the actions of the flight crew just a sad manifestation of utter incompetence at the most basic flying skills.
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I absolutely agree with you but my statement had nothing to do with the actual flight accident even though it is what lead to this travesty playing out in the first place.
If and this is a BIG if we can assume the footage from the helmet cam is an accurate depiction of the events then only gross incompetence caused TWO trucks to drive over this poor girl.
It is a BIG IF, I know
If and this is a BIG if we can assume the footage from the helmet cam is an accurate depiction of the events then only gross incompetence caused TWO trucks to drive over this poor girl.
It is a BIG IF, I know
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Of course it is tragic. The whole incident was tragic. And while I really feel for the girl's family, it seems inappropriate to immediately want to crucify the rescuers.
The rescuers in any situation put their lives in danger to mitigate the effects of mistakes made by others.
I've never worked as a resucer, but have been caught up in some motor-vehicle incidents that happened right in front of me. The level of chaos when multiple vehicles and casualties are involved is difficult to comprehend until one has experienced it first hand. When you're faced with a burning aircraft and bodies and walking wounded all over the place, the chaos must be exponentially greater.
If there are more than 50 mins of video, what is shown about the incident in the bits that landed on the cutting-room floor?
If the video was released by the family, or someone sympathetic to the family, is it possible that the edited version posted above paints an unfairly critical picture of how the rescuers responded?
Has anyone determined whether or not the injuries the girl sustained in the place crash were survivable?
Does slamming the rescuers with a lawsuit really achieve anything other than making them second-guess themselves in future?
Given the current cost-cutting trend in organisational management, how much will have to be spent on legal fees and insurance that could have been better spent on training?
Just a few thoughts...
The rescuers in any situation put their lives in danger to mitigate the effects of mistakes made by others.
I've never worked as a resucer, but have been caught up in some motor-vehicle incidents that happened right in front of me. The level of chaos when multiple vehicles and casualties are involved is difficult to comprehend until one has experienced it first hand. When you're faced with a burning aircraft and bodies and walking wounded all over the place, the chaos must be exponentially greater.
If there are more than 50 mins of video, what is shown about the incident in the bits that landed on the cutting-room floor?
If the video was released by the family, or someone sympathetic to the family, is it possible that the edited version posted above paints an unfairly critical picture of how the rescuers responded?
Has anyone determined whether or not the injuries the girl sustained in the place crash were survivable?
Does slamming the rescuers with a lawsuit really achieve anything other than making them second-guess themselves in future?
Given the current cost-cutting trend in organisational management, how much will have to be spent on legal fees and insurance that could have been better spent on training?
Just a few thoughts...
Last edited by Not-a_Pilot; 16th Jan 2014 at 09:43. Reason: incorrect punctuation, added a phrase
It is tragic, it was a dangerous and chaotic, evolving, volatile situation - I'm not looking to apportion blame.
However - the reason given for running over the injured girl before was that fire fighting foam was covering her....
Which - wasn't there in the edited video shown.
However - the reason given for running over the injured girl before was that fire fighting foam was covering her....
Which - wasn't there in the edited video shown.
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Not good enough?
1 The girl was located before she was covered with foam
2 The girl was wrongly assumed to be dead after a 3 sec (!) evaluation
3 The girl was not moved into a safe zone
4 Firefighter command was not informed in time about the girl
Asiana crash video: 'Firefighters saw the 16-year-old girl before she was run over' - Americas - World - The Independent
These firefighters are trained and paid to act professionally as most of us are - did they?
Put yourself in place of the parents/friends/relatives? How would you feel about this?
2 The girl was wrongly assumed to be dead after a 3 sec (!) evaluation
3 The girl was not moved into a safe zone
4 Firefighter command was not informed in time about the girl
Asiana crash video: 'Firefighters saw the 16-year-old girl before she was run over' - Americas - World - The Independent
These firefighters are trained and paid to act professionally as most of us are - did they?
Put yourself in place of the parents/friends/relatives? How would you feel about this?
barit, how can you harm someone who is already dead?
Part of this seems to involve a belief "she's dead" when she wasn't ... and of course, I don't see the point in running over a dead body if one does not have to, different issue altogether ...
Part of this seems to involve a belief "she's dead" when she wasn't ... and of course, I don't see the point in running over a dead body if one does not have to, different issue altogether ...
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You have to understand the psychology of "first responders" - like it or not, many are drawn to the profession by the prospect of calamity and the excitement of dire emergency. That's probably as it should be. But in modern times, this I think has become pathological. It's directly responsible for the catastrophic loss of life among firefighters on 9/11. And in this case, you have a contingent of folks who mostly are bored senseless because aviation is so safe, and then they are called into action and fail completely. This is a systemic problem across police and firefighting forces everywhere. It needs to be addressed.
Quick germination process there de sitter. You offer an opinion based on nothing you choose to post, then conclude there's a systemic problem that needs addressing.
Why do we even need the NTSB and other investigative bodies? Send the data to pprune and you'll have an answer in hours.
Why do we even need the NTSB and other investigative bodies? Send the data to pprune and you'll have an answer in hours.
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This is truly horrendous. If, as doyll mentions what we can see from the footage that we did get to see is accurate, then there are no excuses for this gross incompetence. I was under the impression off the bat that the girl must have been covered in foam, that's why she wasn't seen and run over......