NTSB update on Asiana 214
Given that I ran into that in the Navy, related to some Air Force Navy joint training syllabi, yes, I have tried and discovered to my horror that some people think one can get a right nut without a left one and still have a complete "package." 
With the Navy not profit oriented, I can see where profit oriented enterprises would do the same, and worse, by damning such heresies as cost centers without added profitable value.
With the Navy not profit oriented, I can see where profit oriented enterprises would do the same, and worse, by damning such heresies as cost centers without added profitable value.
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But I wonder if anyone's ever tried.
"Train to the training program minimum hours, it's what we're budgeted for. If the FAA thought we'd need more to be safe they would require that we increase the hours in the training program."
The FAA when asked about it says:
"We only hold the minimum standard, it's up to the operator to go beyond that."
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just for the record
the boeing type rating ride I took had a req'mt to demonstrate a visual apch, purely visual by looking out the window
I was given distance to runway and cleared visual apch and used the 3/1 method until vasi/papi insight
but I had to demonstrate it and did...at night
the boeing type rating ride I took had a req'mt to demonstrate a visual apch, purely visual by looking out the window
I was given distance to runway and cleared visual apch and used the 3/1 method until vasi/papi insight
but I had to demonstrate it and did...at night
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Jazz Hands:
You bet they have, at least indirectly.
I was on the ALPA Safety/Technical Committee when we went to the Vice-President of Training to attempt to get a second recurrent training sim session.
His response, "Negotiate that in your next collecting bargaining agreement. Otherwise it has a snowballs chance in Hell."
A frequent complaint. But I wonder if anyone's ever tried.
I was on the ALPA Safety/Technical Committee when we went to the Vice-President of Training to attempt to get a second recurrent training sim session.
His response, "Negotiate that in your next collecting bargaining agreement. Otherwise it has a snowballs chance in Hell."
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Can't bitch too much about the lack of training. Company went to a yearly sim schedule back in the late 90's but you could go to a 6 month sim on your own. Unpaid but they'd pay for the hotel. How many guys went? Almost zero.
Last training cycle had a night visual approach to a 7000' runway with no GS, PAPI, or VASI.
Last training cycle had a night visual approach to a 7000' runway with no GS, PAPI, or VASI.
Engine caught fire on a 707 one night over the Middle East, extinguished and diverted to the only practical airport available, and arrived to find it was now raining and the ILS was u/s. (GPS/INS not yet invented )
Murphy was alive and well.
Ended up doing a manual, visual, NDB approach at night and broke out just above minima - on three.
But then we only had a rudimentary auto-pilot and auto-throttle anyway, so it was really - almost - just another day at the office.
No problem.
Murphy was alive and well.
Ended up doing a manual, visual, NDB approach at night and broke out just above minima - on three.
But then we only had a rudimentary auto-pilot and auto-throttle anyway, so it was really - almost - just another day at the office.
No problem.
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Having worked with these guys, I heartily disagree. IMHO they would NOT make good instructors.
There are 3 dead people, numerous severely injured. One flight attendant is paralysed below the waist and another severely burnt with severe facial scarring. No, I'm sorry, if I was scheduled to be trained by them I would refuse!!
There are 3 dead people, numerous severely injured. One flight attendant is paralysed below the waist and another severely burnt with severe facial scarring. No, I'm sorry, if I was scheduled to be trained by them I would refuse!!
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They may have learned something from this mistake but that doesn't make them good candidates for trainers. If something this basic was not trained into them, then all their training which occurred after that point becomes suspect and needs to be checked out too. They can only pass on what they know and until it's all verified as being correct (and rectified if it isn't) then they don't need to be instructing anyone, possibly adding to the wrong.
Training the trainers is key.
In the 1960s Boeing were concerned about the accident rate when their shiny jets were being operated by certain companies.
One of the things they instituted was that part of the package of buying a Boeing would be that they would train the training Captains who were going to train the line pilots - this was not optional but mandatory.
There are, of course, many other factors which go to make a safe operation.
In the 1960s Boeing were concerned about the accident rate when their shiny jets were being operated by certain companies.
One of the things they instituted was that part of the package of buying a Boeing would be that they would train the training Captains who were going to train the line pilots - this was not optional but mandatory.
There are, of course, many other factors which go to make a safe operation.
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I once had to attempt to train a fellow who had made the most spectacular horlicks of a night visual approach, writing off a brand-new aircraft and nearly killing himself and all aboard in what was technically classed a non-survivable accident (the aircraft was pretty much shredded by a relatively fast, flat impact in a field of corn).
It was horribly fascinating to see how the same thought patterns that must have led to the crash were still present afterwards; he had learned nothing at all from his mistakes, plus he was now quite traumatized, so that he was essentially untrainable.
Going by that I would say that this accident crew probably should be used as a warning to others, but not as trainers. By what we can read in the preliminary report they scarcely qualify as pilots: speed control is a basic skill that they appeared completely to lack. Of course, that said, we have to wait for the final report; there might be something missing from what we have been told so far.
It was horribly fascinating to see how the same thought patterns that must have led to the crash were still present afterwards; he had learned nothing at all from his mistakes, plus he was now quite traumatized, so that he was essentially untrainable.
Going by that I would say that this accident crew probably should be used as a warning to others, but not as trainers. By what we can read in the preliminary report they scarcely qualify as pilots: speed control is a basic skill that they appeared completely to lack. Of course, that said, we have to wait for the final report; there might be something missing from what we have been told so far.
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But hell, i bet they could now be some of the best instructors ever seen.
But hell, i bet they could now be some of the best instructors ever seen.
(and yes, I know it arguably was not the flight crew's mistake that lead to the fuel exhaustion)I don't think I would ever make a similar statement about Asiana - while they may never make that exact mistake again, at no time did they display particularly good airmanship.
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I once had to attempt to train a fellow who had made the most spectacular horlicks of a night visual approach, writing off a brand-new aircraft and nearly killing himself and all aboard in what was technically classed a non-survivable accident (the aircraft was pretty much shredded by a relatively fast, flat impact in a field of corn).
It was horribly fascinating to see how the same thought patterns that must have led to the crash were still present afterwards; he had learned nothing at all from his mistakes, plus he was now quite traumatized, so that he was essentially untrainable.
Going by that I would say that this accident crew probably should be used as a warning to others, but not as trainers. By what we can read in the preliminary report they scarcely qualify as pilots: speed control is a basic skill that they appeared completely to lack. Of course, that said, we have to wait for the final report; there might be something missing from what we have been told so far.
It was horribly fascinating to see how the same thought patterns that must have led to the crash were still present afterwards; he had learned nothing at all from his mistakes, plus he was now quite traumatized, so that he was essentially untrainable.
Going by that I would say that this accident crew probably should be used as a warning to others, but not as trainers. By what we can read in the preliminary report they scarcely qualify as pilots: speed control is a basic skill that they appeared completely to lack. Of course, that said, we have to wait for the final report; there might be something missing from what we have been told so far.
Until the mid 90's the ultimate proof of ability was always the engine out non-precision approach, flown manually in a stiff crosswind, in limiting weather conditions. This was a simulator check, of course, but it was certainly the definitive test of handling skill, instrument scan and situational awareness. A significant percentage could not pass this item at the first attempt. Somewhere along the line it was decreed that exercises of this nature, and even VMC approaches, were best performed on automatics. Situational awareness and basic handling ability seem to have deteriorated ever since.
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Good points
Good points Lonewolf: In my own profession (Anesthesiology/CriticalCare) we have benefitted greatly from automation aids, protocols, etc. But at the end of the day, when things go South we must understand the basics and understand how our machines and profession work: I am a lowly PPL but have learned a lot from these discussions and incidents. One must have a THOROUGH understanding of what makes aviation work and be prepared to respond when Hal lets us down. Thank you !
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Don't get me wrong - the airmanship and CRM of this Asiana crew left a lot to be desired, but had the Gimli crew been a few thousand miles from known territory then the outcome might have been much less positive.
statir vane
But in my experience, mistakes are the best instructors and equalisers i have personally encountered. Others' mistakes can feed an arrogance and are not quite as revealing as one's own.
And, no, i haven't crashed an airplane. Yet.
But in my experience, mistakes are the best instructors and equalisers i have personally encountered. Others' mistakes can feed an arrogance and are not quite as revealing as one's own.
And, no, i haven't crashed an airplane. Yet.
Driving over an pedestrian with your car does not qualify to becoming a driving instructor, and killing a patient will not entitle a doctor to give lessons to medical students.
In view of this accident i can find no indications concerning an ongoing learning process of the crew to the root cause of the accident, not monitoring the basics of flying, airspeed, attitude and altitude. Instead we hear excuses over excuses.