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Lionair plane down in Bali.

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Lionair plane down in Bali.

Old 15th Apr 2013, 17:44
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If the Radar altitude track is accurate they were already below minimums for the VOR approach to 09. They were also 100 feet low on glide path if performing the approach using IAN (Integrated Approach Navigation) . At 1 mile from the runway that puts them at 200 feet AMSL.

Below minimums, already low and they lose sight of the runway in reported heavy rain; An immediate Go Around is required. Not the reported transfer of controls from the F.O. to the Captain. At 200 feet and descending they have 15 seconds before they hit the water.

Last edited by JPJP; 15th Apr 2013 at 17:50.
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Old 15th Apr 2013, 17:45
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microburst or below profile?

reuters account:

As the Lion Air plane was coming in to land, with an aircraft of national carrier Garuda following behind and another about to take off on the runway just ahead, the co-pilot lost sight of the runway as heavy rain drove across the windshield.

The captain, an Indonesian citizen with about 15,000 hours experience and an instructor's license, took the controls.

Between 400 and 200 feet (122 and 61 metres), pilots described flying through a wall of water, according to the source. Bursts of heavy rainfall and lost visibility are not uncommon in the tropics but the aircraft's low height meant the crew had little time to react.

With no sight of the runway lights or markings, the captain decided to abort the landing and perform a "go around", a routine manoeuvre for which all pilots are well trained.

But the captain told officials afterwards that instead of climbing, the brand-new 737 started to sink uncontrollably.

From 200 feet, well-practised routines unravelled quickly.

"The captain says he intended to go around but that he felt the aircraft dragged down by the wind; that is why he hit the sea," said the source, who was briefed on the crew's testimony.

"There was rain coming east to west; very heavy," the source said, asking not to be named because no one is authorized to speak publicly about the investigation while it is under way.

full article:

Exclusive - Lion Air crash pilot felt jet dragged from sky | Reuters
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Old 15th Apr 2013, 17:49
  #363 (permalink)  
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How about an incorrect QNH set putting the aircraft below profile
Crew not visual with the runway due to cloud / rain showers prior to the field
Heavy shower encountered at short final, crew continues below the minima
Aircraft fly itself into the water
Are you serious, or are you a reporter of the Herald Sun munching up key words? Book yourself some C152 dual time. It will answer all your questions.
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Old 15th Apr 2013, 17:53
  #364 (permalink)  
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Certainly the recorded thrust lever angle at various stages would be interesting to know.
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Old 15th Apr 2013, 18:03
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NO professional crew will continue below minima on a VOR approach when the runway is not in sight, even if QNH was forgotten to be set or set incorrectly. ( radio altimeter is still there as crosscheck by the way!).

It is simply not done to give controls to the other crewmember when losing sight of the runway. YOU GO AROUND. That is basic stuff, Surely not even airlines like Lionair who use slavery pilots ( you get that Media? Yes, slave pilots who pay 50000us$ to fly your family, these includes even Captains!!!) are that lacking in professionalism and training to not have any standard on the flightdeck?
There Must have been an alignment of all holes in the swiss cheese like with any accident.
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Old 15th Apr 2013, 18:07
  #366 (permalink)  
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Now we know that a 738 can land just as safely in the water as an A320!

(sorry Sully, at least the 320 didnt break up)

Last edited by FlightPathOBN; 15th Apr 2013 at 18:09.
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Old 15th Apr 2013, 18:38
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First ever open sea crash-landing without fatalities by a full-sized passenger jet?

(I'm not getting any traction in the regional thread; this place looks busier, forgive the duplication.)

Is the following statement true?

"This is the first time in history that a full-sized passenger jet crash-landed directly in the open sea without fatalities."

And if so, how would one go about documenting it with a reliable source (book, trade magazine article, officially published statistics, database result)?
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Old 15th Apr 2013, 18:40
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Oh, for the Love of, uh, "the deity of your choice"...if the thing was working properly and wasn't out of gas, they screwed the pooch. "The rain destroyed the lift!" I'd laugh if it didn't make me want to cry. How do you reckon millions of flights land in the dreaded RAIN every day? The largesse of Jupiter? I've flown through storms I'd have drowned in without the windshield, and the wings never magically stopped flying. No doubt the Feds will come out with an exhortation to avoid all rain in the future. Lulz.
Not the main thrust of my post, but I am still mindful of seven's comment.

You seem to discount the NASA research mentioned? This is specifically a low altitude/last minutes problem. When you consider the mass of the rainwater, it seems there is a time when it can't be accelerated appropriately over the upper surface, suddenly and severely disrupting lift.

My main point was how the groundspeed might have been affected.

It was never something I had to calculate or really even think about, but then, I was in old iron and the power levers were always in my hand. They would somehow move by the accelerative forces on my backside, long before any medium-term and meaningful change of airspeed was registered. A totally mysterious process, but one that requires some years of being in touch with real mechanisms.

Edit to ask: Do modern auto-throttle systems have accelerative inputs to predict responses?


Last edited by Loose rivets; 15th Apr 2013 at 18:43.
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Old 15th Apr 2013, 18:41
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Now we know that a 738 can land just as safely in the water as an A320!
Irony or are you serious?
It broke in two, if it wasn't sitting on the reef it would probably have sunk to the bottom with half of the pax in it.
Might have broken in two because of the reef but we will never know.
But it sure is no proof that "a 738 can land just as safely in the water as an A320!"

At first she struggled to free herself and was bleeding heavily from her right leg, but eventually she got out.

She explained none of the rubber slides meant to open after a crash landing had done so. Passengers were forced to jump into the water and swim to safety.
I remember that on a 738 the aft doors should not be opened in case of ditching. So according to Boeing only overwing exits (which have no slides) and slides at fwd doors should be used.
Looking at the photo's the RH fwd door had a deployed slide, so much for eyewitness accounts...
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Old 15th Apr 2013, 19:06
  #370 (permalink)  
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This not the first. A DC8 went in to San Francisco Bay, in 1968 ,in landing configuration. No fatalities . Aircraft was flying again in less than a year
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Old 15th Apr 2013, 19:07
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SLF with interest in flying here (too bad that we need this disclaimer here now but happy to do it):

The engines: does the damage on the leading edge of the right wing mean they ripped off upon impact (reef close to surface explaining it)?

Last edited by grimmrad; 15th Apr 2013 at 19:08.
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Old 15th Apr 2013, 19:21
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No, if you look to images from yesterday, the slats are not damaged
The wings looks perfect, apart the broken winglet

This damage we can see here is probably done by the aircraft impacting those rocks while moved by the waves
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Old 15th Apr 2013, 19:41
  #373 (permalink)  
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Indonesian Government To Audit Lion Air Following Plane Crash

The Ministry of Transportation is to audit the management of Lion Air following plane crash occurred on April 13 near Bali`s airport, Minister E.E. Mangindaan said here on Monday.

"We will conduct special audit for Lion Air. Among factors that will be checked are the condition of all aircraft owned by the company, plane maintenance system and airline management," Indonesia's Antara quoted the minister as saying.

He added the ministry will closely monitor every Lion Air flight to prevent similar crash to recur. As to the pilot and co-pilot of the ill-fated plane that crashed in Bali, both of them are grounded for two weeks to facilitate investigation.

Lion Air management itself has stated its willingness to provide compensation for all passengers of the plane. Investigation on the cause of the accident is still on going.

Lion Air flight JT904 from Bandung (West Java province) to Denpasar (Bali) crashed at sea last Saturday when it was to land at Bali airport.

"The plane with seven crew members was carrying 101 passengers from Bandung, West Java, to Denpasar when it undershot the runway," said Lion Air`s Director General Edward Sirait.

No report on casualties from the incident.

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Old 15th Apr 2013, 20:36
  #374 (permalink)  
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"at open sea" -- San Francisco Bay does not qualify, I don't think, and neither do rivers (NYC, St. Petersburgh, Yogoharta -- 1 fatality) or Hong Kong (aircraft touched down 2/3rd down the runway and overshot into the water, also not open sea.

So... a first?
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Old 15th Apr 2013, 20:46
  #375 (permalink)  
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Thank you very much for your help guys, great responses. Interview done.

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Old 15th Apr 2013, 22:09
  #376 (permalink)  
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The engines: does the damage on the leading edge of the right wing mean they ripped off upon impact (reef close to surface explaining it)?
The photos linked from one of the early posts, taken shortly after the event, appear to show that at least one, if not both, pylons and engines have detached from the wing. All will no doubt be revealed when they lift the wreck out of the water.

Whether they hit the reef or not is probably academic - hitting the water alone, at that speed, would be like hitting concrete.

Same thing happened to one of the engines on the Hudson A320, it ended up on the river bed.
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Old 15th Apr 2013, 22:29
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re: ditching in "open ocean"

What about Pan Am Flight 6 (ditched in the Pacific on Oct 16, 1956). Didn't all 31 aboard survive?

ed. Was not a "jet" however, but a Boeing 377 Stratocruiser.

Last edited by Passenger 389; 15th Apr 2013 at 22:39.
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Old 15th Apr 2013, 23:01
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Passenger descriptions of being rescued in rubber dinghies seem to refer to actual rubber dinghies being used by local surfers.
Surely the weather couldn't have been that bad if there were surfers surfing nearby?
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Old 16th Apr 2013, 01:25
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Taking over from the F/O and hearing you have control can cause a problem at such a critical stage .
The cpt should be ready but if your sitting there thinking the other guy is visual or handling it ok when he says I got no idea its all yours . Could be a factor . Better the F/O just go around than hand over .
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Old 16th Apr 2013, 01:27
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with reefs nearby, was it really open sea?

still, the best ditching was the JAL DC8 KSFO in 68...if you can use the plane again...that's pretty darn good.

and the funny thing about this ditching (SFO) is that they didn't know they were ditching...
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