security, restore the balance of power
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security, restore the balance of power
I originally posted this in reply to a thread on the engineers forum but on reflection I think a wider audience find it of benefit .
The reason that security have become so powerful is there has been no control of their paranoid antics, for too long they have been judge and jury in their own court. The politicians don't dare restrain them in case they are seen by the press as being weak on terrorists so security can invent all sorts of new ideas. The numptys at the bottom love these powers and use them as only someone who's life is so empty can, the bosses invent these ideas so that they can make more money by employing more low grade numptys to enforce the ungraded rules.
For the first time in living memory the government has started an inquiry into aviation security, the results of this enquiry will form the basis if future security regulation.
The most important part of this for us is to have a formal complaint procedure that is independent of the airport security system.
To this end it has been proposed that CHIRP is given a formal role as a security watchdog.
I would recommend that you all go to latest edition of CHIRP and follow the links to the government security enquiry website and make your views known.
It is quite clear that the last thing that the security industry wants is an independent body monitoring their antics so your input to this enquiry is vital if you want some sort of control over this issue.
I have made my submission to the enquiry I urge you all to do the same, an hour on the computer will save you years of future trouble !
The reason that security have become so powerful is there has been no control of their paranoid antics, for too long they have been judge and jury in their own court. The politicians don't dare restrain them in case they are seen by the press as being weak on terrorists so security can invent all sorts of new ideas. The numptys at the bottom love these powers and use them as only someone who's life is so empty can, the bosses invent these ideas so that they can make more money by employing more low grade numptys to enforce the ungraded rules.
For the first time in living memory the government has started an inquiry into aviation security, the results of this enquiry will form the basis if future security regulation.
The most important part of this for us is to have a formal complaint procedure that is independent of the airport security system.
To this end it has been proposed that CHIRP is given a formal role as a security watchdog.
I would recommend that you all go to latest edition of CHIRP and follow the links to the government security enquiry website and make your views known.
It is quite clear that the last thing that the security industry wants is an independent body monitoring their antics so your input to this enquiry is vital if you want some sort of control over this issue.
I have made my submission to the enquiry I urge you all to do the same, an hour on the computer will save you years of future trouble !
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While generally agreeing with some of your sentiments, I resent your offensive remarks regarding the 'numpties'. My daughter is a security officer at a major airport and does her job diligently and seriously whilst being cheerful and efficient, as do many of her colleagues.
Blame the DFT, Airport Operators if you wish, who think up some of the nonsense that has to be implemented. "judge and jury in their own court". Sadly you display your ignorance of the system, the security staff are constantly monitored by everyone from the DFT down and there is a price to pay for their non-compliance.
I like probably everyone has been negatively effected by some daft rules and have met some charmless security staff, likewise I have met many charmless crews who have created much of their own problems with their un-cooperative attitudes.
Blame the DFT, Airport Operators if you wish, who think up some of the nonsense that has to be implemented. "judge and jury in their own court". Sadly you display your ignorance of the system, the security staff are constantly monitored by everyone from the DFT down and there is a price to pay for their non-compliance.
I like probably everyone has been negatively effected by some daft rules and have met some charmless security staff, likewise I have met many charmless crews who have created much of their own problems with their un-cooperative attitudes.
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some charmless security staff, likewise I have met many charmless crews
What the 'numpties' (love that word!) need to remember is they are merely a service provider, as are we, but too a different group of people.
However, many of them are power mad, jealous and choose to be that way as they seem to think it makes them look as important as they clearly seem to feel.
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I have to echo the sentiments of my colleagues- security has become a disgrace.
I, like many, felt bemusement at the 'increased' measures brought in at a certain major airport, which resulted in quite a number of numpties being employed to fill posts, but with little oversight, except by other numpties.
I have watched incredible levels of abuse meted out to unsuspecting foreign visitors. (obviously, constantly monitored by everyone from the DFT down (and there is a price to pay for their non-compliance!))
I have similarly seen and experienced wholesale protected persecution of local crews, by the same numpties, who, for whatever reason are venting their resentment on flightcrew and cabin crew. (why behave in such a manner, when legislation dictates that someone must fill the post, and therefore, receive a salary they might otherwise not have received)
There is no doubt that there are a lot of good people in airport security, their existence predating the current hysteria. And the worst of the perpetrators are not in the majority- but the damage they do is disproportionate.
I firmly believe the current situation is becoming a risk to, rather than an aid to, security. And this view is ALSO shared by a number of security personnel who can only ensure compliance.
Situations like this will certainly bring out the worst in some- whether it is security staff, or crew, or other airport staff.
It's become an industry able to generate and feed off, it's own paranoia.
No doubt, the better educated of the crazies (the real enemy we are meant to be on our guard against) are sitting back and revelling in the mayhem that has been created.
I, like many, felt bemusement at the 'increased' measures brought in at a certain major airport, which resulted in quite a number of numpties being employed to fill posts, but with little oversight, except by other numpties.
I have watched incredible levels of abuse meted out to unsuspecting foreign visitors. (obviously, constantly monitored by everyone from the DFT down (and there is a price to pay for their non-compliance!))
I have similarly seen and experienced wholesale protected persecution of local crews, by the same numpties, who, for whatever reason are venting their resentment on flightcrew and cabin crew. (why behave in such a manner, when legislation dictates that someone must fill the post, and therefore, receive a salary they might otherwise not have received)
There is no doubt that there are a lot of good people in airport security, their existence predating the current hysteria. And the worst of the perpetrators are not in the majority- but the damage they do is disproportionate.
I firmly believe the current situation is becoming a risk to, rather than an aid to, security. And this view is ALSO shared by a number of security personnel who can only ensure compliance.
Situations like this will certainly bring out the worst in some- whether it is security staff, or crew, or other airport staff.
It's become an industry able to generate and feed off, it's own paranoia.
No doubt, the better educated of the crazies (the real enemy we are meant to be on our guard against) are sitting back and revelling in the mayhem that has been created.
To give credit where due, we departed LHR T3 Gate 42 (IIRC) as pax on the evening of 27th October and security was courteous and efficient.
SIN transit went very well too and the SYD arrival procedures were probably the fastest I've ever experienced
SIN transit went very well too and the SYD arrival procedures were probably the fastest I've ever experienced
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Gusting 45
While there are undoubtedly people who do the security job in a reasonable way they are in a minority. Since the last security upgrade I have been sexualy assulted, had property stolen, been harassed by excessive searching, had others in my crew having property damaged and been delayed by use of local rules about ID passes (Stansted won't recognize a Gatwick pass, that was when both airports were BAA)
It is clear that some of the operatives enjoy and abuse the power that they have over people who have far more responsabiltity in their work.
Any complaint results in the immediate threat to remove your airport pass and so the ability to earn a living.
The chances of getting any satisfaction in a dispute with the security system in next to zero as the management will close ranks and back the operative who you have the dispute with.
Under these circumstances most airport workers see "security" as a far greater threat to their day to day lives and ability to earn a living than terrorists.
It is clear that some of the operatives enjoy and abuse the power that they have over people who have far more responsabiltity in their work.
Any complaint results in the immediate threat to remove your airport pass and so the ability to earn a living.
The chances of getting any satisfaction in a dispute with the security system in next to zero as the management will close ranks and back the operative who you have the dispute with.
Under these circumstances most airport workers see "security" as a far greater threat to their day to day lives and ability to earn a living than terrorists.
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A and C, if as you say all the listed abuses occurred then I hope that you called the police. I would be very curious to know what the outcome was although these matters are of a very personal nature and would not be surprised if you choose to keep it to yourself.
As I have previously said, I agree with much of what you say. Your personal remarks are a generalisation and with all generalisations there will be some truth embedded. My objection is to the personal nature of your comments.
BAA airports not accepting each others passes is not limited to STN. I have had the exact same problem in reverse in LGW. It doesn't make sense to me either, but local rules apply and there is s*d all we can do about it.
I am sure we could all list many occasions when security have hacked us off, but to lump all security staff together as numpties engenders an unhelpful atmosphere of us and them which is unlikely to be helpful in easing our way through security or improving security in our lives.
That's it, Ive no more to say. Enjoy the debate.
As I have previously said, I agree with much of what you say. Your personal remarks are a generalisation and with all generalisations there will be some truth embedded. My objection is to the personal nature of your comments.
BAA airports not accepting each others passes is not limited to STN. I have had the exact same problem in reverse in LGW. It doesn't make sense to me either, but local rules apply and there is s*d all we can do about it.
I am sure we could all list many occasions when security have hacked us off, but to lump all security staff together as numpties engenders an unhelpful atmosphere of us and them which is unlikely to be helpful in easing our way through security or improving security in our lives.
That's it, Ive no more to say. Enjoy the debate.
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Like many others, I too have little regard for the numpties who man the security checkpoints nor the pointless, ridiculous rules they enforce. The DfT's "Better regulation for aviation security consultation document" suggests that there may be an improvement and I will take the time to make my submission (Thank you A and C & Fargoo).
The object of aviation security should be to make aviation safer by removing those who threaten it and the items they use to achieve their goals. As it stands at the moment, this is not the case. The system is little more than an expensive theatrical farce. Furthermore, I don't believe the legislators who write the law, the dumb executives create the policies nor the idiots who enforce it have a proper grasp of the real threats. Daily I see the holes in the system yet those who make our lives a misery at airports, the numpties at the checkpoints, couldn't be bothered. So I treat the system and those who enforce it with contempt it deserves. I won't be rude, I'll just comply. But don't expect anything else from me.
I hope the result of this consultation means that SeMS is implemented. But improvements will only occur if the feedback from the system is externally scrutinised. Those in the system have demonstrated they they can not be trusted and are unable to accept any criticism. To date, these goons have excluded outsiders "for security reasons" so we've ended up with the expensive, useless, and "unfit for purpose" procedures that we have to currently endure.
The object of aviation security should be to make aviation safer by removing those who threaten it and the items they use to achieve their goals. As it stands at the moment, this is not the case. The system is little more than an expensive theatrical farce. Furthermore, I don't believe the legislators who write the law, the dumb executives create the policies nor the idiots who enforce it have a proper grasp of the real threats. Daily I see the holes in the system yet those who make our lives a misery at airports, the numpties at the checkpoints, couldn't be bothered. So I treat the system and those who enforce it with contempt it deserves. I won't be rude, I'll just comply. But don't expect anything else from me.
I hope the result of this consultation means that SeMS is implemented. But improvements will only occur if the feedback from the system is externally scrutinised. Those in the system have demonstrated they they can not be trusted and are unable to accept any criticism. To date, these goons have excluded outsiders "for security reasons" so we've ended up with the expensive, useless, and "unfit for purpose" procedures that we have to currently endure.
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Had the pleasure of of travelling through Stansted yesterday afternoon, and I must say I was impressed by the efficiency and thoroughness of the security procedures being enforced. A very pleasant young lady (of east European extraction) set off the metal detector ahead of me. A queue formed as the lady in question was given the once over. Well actually, it was more like a six or seven over. Each part of the lady's bra was subject to a painstaking electronic and tactile examination. Satisfied that said bra contained nothing more threatening than a bosom, her 18 month old son was then given the once over. Thankfully only the once.
The young lady in question could then continue her journey, trying to dress herself and re-pack her bags while single-handedly trying to console her distraught, uber-terrorist, baby. Oh the joys of flying.
But at least I,and those around me, could relax in the knowledge that our security had been so obviously enhanced.
The young lady in question could then continue her journey, trying to dress herself and re-pack her bags while single-handedly trying to console her distraught, uber-terrorist, baby. Oh the joys of flying.
But at least I,and those around me, could relax in the knowledge that our security had been so obviously enhanced.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
I stopped operating as crew several years ago, so cannot comment on the present regime. However, having passed through Stansted and Heathrow several times this year as a passenger, I have to say that there has been a quantum leap in the security experience. Staff are helpful, courteous, even friendly while at the same time being efficient. The other side of the pond however: my wife went through the back-scanning machine, was subjected to a pat-down, and then an even more thorough body search. At the same time I was told to "stand back", and there is nothing you can do about it. (The name of the airport has been witheld to avoid further trouble)
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An abiding memory I have from more than 20 years ago was the security chap at LBA who had the most appalling body odour. I was based at LBA then so had to endure the pat-down several times each week. I am just approaching the start of my 14th year of retirement and I really do miss security
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Stansted are excellent. No issues at all over nearly two decades there. Only crews with 'attitude' seem to have issues. You know, the ones who crack the same old one-liners that the security staff have never heard before! Relax, and be respectful, and you'll have a good day. There are jobs-worths in every industry, you can't change them so do yourselves a favour and just smile and move on. You'll live longer!
Ps. By the way, do you think terrorists wouldn't use a kid to blowup a plane? Dream on, they would in a heart beat. Security is only a deterrent.
Ps. By the way, do you think terrorists wouldn't use a kid to blowup a plane? Dream on, they would in a heart beat. Security is only a deterrent.
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Have terrorists ever used a pilot to blow up an Airliner? No of course not, one's hands are much more dangerous than a bomb. This is why aircrew find the present security rules so intrusive and basically designed and carried out by primary school children.
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The security staff who screen passengers are encouraged to be courteous. In my opinion it's the security staff airside screening airport workers who are the numpties. Unbelieveable attitudes.
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Put in a submission to the enquiry
The security system needs balance and the only way to get this is to have some independent oversight, with out this it will be the same old posts on here for the next twenty years.
This enquiry is a golden chance to do something positive about the security system, It took me about 40 min to do the submission, a small price to pay to get some balance in to this situation. With any luck it will make future work at airports a little more pleasant and if you do have a dispute with security you will have a proper system of redress.
In my opinion just having this system in place will curtail the exccess of security industry.
I make no apology for saying this one more time...........do a submission NOW!!
This enquiry is a golden chance to do something positive about the security system, It took me about 40 min to do the submission, a small price to pay to get some balance in to this situation. With any luck it will make future work at airports a little more pleasant and if you do have a dispute with security you will have a proper system of redress.
In my opinion just having this system in place will curtail the exccess of security industry.
I make no apology for saying this one more time...........do a submission NOW!!
My submission, sir, is not to write to a complaint system that is as deaf as a post.
My submission is to cease travelling by air, unless I have absolutely no choice (employer requires it, or a death in the family).
The security twits have indeed contributed to the utter disgrace that is the airline industry as we know it today: the authors of policy, the implementers at various airports, and the airline companies themselves, as well as the "numpties" all over.
I know how good air travel used to be. It isn't any more, hasn't been for about ten years.
The "security as theater" (well said, sir, to Piltdown Man) has penetrated into the cabin as well. I don't care for the attitude and demeanor of most CC I have run into in the past six years.
The one who now and again breaks ranks and behaves in a semi human fashion, as on my last employer enforced trip, made my day and made me sad all at once.
The cabin crew used to all be that warm and professional at the same time, once in a galaxy far, far away ...
My submission is to cease travelling by air, unless I have absolutely no choice (employer requires it, or a death in the family).
The security twits have indeed contributed to the utter disgrace that is the airline industry as we know it today: the authors of policy, the implementers at various airports, and the airline companies themselves, as well as the "numpties" all over.
I know how good air travel used to be. It isn't any more, hasn't been for about ten years.
The "security as theater" (well said, sir, to Piltdown Man) has penetrated into the cabin as well. I don't care for the attitude and demeanor of most CC I have run into in the past six years.
The one who now and again breaks ranks and behaves in a semi human fashion, as on my last employer enforced trip, made my day and made me sad all at once.
The cabin crew used to all be that warm and professional at the same time, once in a galaxy far, far away ...
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Too Late
I am grateful for this being brought to our attention. However, the closing date for submissions was 7th Nov (on my computer anyway). I did not have time to study the document but I copy here one of the examples of security behaviour which have affected me. Others I submitted were too security sensitive to be displayed here, but this one certainly sums up my view.
I remember the day so well, many years ago now when, going out to the aircraft through Queens Bldg, we found someone sitting at a table and a notice "Security" on it. It was the old boy who used to stagger out early each morning and raise the flag on the airport building. I asked him what he had to do for his new job and his reply stuck in my mind: "Same as before, Guv, f all".
Ah, if only!
Considerations:
Dear Sirs,
I have been alerted to this opportunity to make ones views known about the security situation late on 6th November. Therefore I have had no chance of working my way through all the documentation. However, after 40 years in aviation, 25 in …/.., I do have an opinion.
My view is that a huge amount of time and expense could be saved through targeting likely 'difficulties'. I quote examples of my experiences.
1. I was going through LHR on holiday with my family. We have 9 children. On this occasion they were aged between about 3 and 16 and they all had their holiday kit packed neatly in mini rucksacks. The security man asked me to open my briefcase. The first thing he picked out and examined was my company identity card (LHR). He asked if I was still flying and I confirmed. He then asked if we were going on holiday and I confirmed. He then, with a supercilious smile, told us to empty all the children's rucksacks and all our hand luggage for a lengthy search. Being ex military I was able to bite the bullet and decide to do it and complain later. This took nearly 20 minutes. What a fatuous and stupid waste of time and resources. If he worked for my company his future would have lasted about 5 minutes.
I remember the day so well, many years ago now when, going out to the aircraft through Queens Bldg, we found someone sitting at a table and a notice "Security" on it. It was the old boy who used to stagger out early each morning and raise the flag on the airport building. I asked him what he had to do for his new job and his reply stuck in my mind: "Same as before, Guv, f all".
Ah, if only!
Considerations:
Dear Sirs,
I have been alerted to this opportunity to make ones views known about the security situation late on 6th November. Therefore I have had no chance of working my way through all the documentation. However, after 40 years in aviation, 25 in …/.., I do have an opinion.
My view is that a huge amount of time and expense could be saved through targeting likely 'difficulties'. I quote examples of my experiences.
1. I was going through LHR on holiday with my family. We have 9 children. On this occasion they were aged between about 3 and 16 and they all had their holiday kit packed neatly in mini rucksacks. The security man asked me to open my briefcase. The first thing he picked out and examined was my company identity card (LHR). He asked if I was still flying and I confirmed. He then asked if we were going on holiday and I confirmed. He then, with a supercilious smile, told us to empty all the children's rucksacks and all our hand luggage for a lengthy search. Being ex military I was able to bite the bullet and decide to do it and complain later. This took nearly 20 minutes. What a fatuous and stupid waste of time and resources. If he worked for my company his future would have lasted about 5 minutes.
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What use is "security" when the Home Office is actively working against it by failing to check the passports etc.. of people entering the country?
They had to admit today in Parliament that "we have no idea how many illegals or undesirables entered", all whilst repeating "border security is the most serious matter affecting security of the United Kingdom". In that case, may I politely suggest you Foxtrot Oscar, I mean, RESIGN??
The whole damn thing is a joke. I'd laugh if it wasn't so serious.
They had to admit today in Parliament that "we have no idea how many illegals or undesirables entered", all whilst repeating "border security is the most serious matter affecting security of the United Kingdom". In that case, may I politely suggest you Foxtrot Oscar, I mean, RESIGN??
The whole damn thing is a joke. I'd laugh if it wasn't so serious.
If we are still present & at war in Afghanistan at least in part to improve security in 'the west' why do we need enhanced security anyway and if we need enhanced security anyway why are we still at war in Afghanistan? One or the other please - to save money & lives if nothing else.