security, restore the balance of power

[Poltergeist]

loan wolf, shame you do not read what I said. yes change has to happen everyone sees that and even the regulators are seeing that as has been pointed out, But throwing buckets of crap over what has happened and the state we are in will achieve nothing but deeper divisions.
While lots will complain here, as has been said by others in this thread, few have made views known officially and as with most organisations, regulators will not acknowledge unless it is complained about in the right way hence it has taken so long.
The individuals have been created by the system and some of us are working to change the system. If that is what you are after we are aiming the same way, if it is still hot air then i suggest you make up your mind what you do actually want.
And Silverstrata, I agree about the stupidity of some rules but my point is as above. I flew back on a German aircraft two days ago and the order was given for the seat backs to be put upright for landing except the guy in front said he would not. The crew overlooked this as he was a premium card holder, yes, I overheard the conversation. in view of this being a safety requirement I guess the crew could qualify for the title of numpty. On your logic does that mean all crew are numpties?

[NVpilot]

Some will disagree, but since some of the 9/11 terrorists were pilots with ID, no amount of scrutiny will ever get rid of the checks for operating crews, jump-seating was one of the first things to disappear after 9/11.

[Lonewolf_50]

Color me unconvinced. I'll believe it when I see it, Poltergeist.

Until I see it, it remains hot air and marshmellows.

Been down the silk lined roadway (on a variety of issues over the years) once too many times to believe otherwise.

As they say in Missouri: show me.

Your example of the German aircraft is a quaint demonstration of how utterly pointless this "system" has become. All this talk of "safety" and "security" is illusion and noise. Has been since day first.

I flew back on a German aircraft two days ago and the order was given for the seat backs to be put upright for landing except the guy in front said he would not. The crew overlooked this as he was a premium card holder, yes, I overheard the conversation. in view of this being a safety requirement I guess the crew could qualify for the title of numpty.

I suggest you go back to an old George Carlin comedy routine that predates 9-11 by a few years. It was on his CD/album "You Are All Diseased." It features the idiotic "three questions" we used to be asked while checking in to a flight about who packed our bags. (Achmed and Ali, of course, why do you ask?) I seem to recall that bit of "security" theater being an artifact of the Lockerbie explosion/wreck/terrorist attack. Please correct me if I am wrong on that score.

His position is that it's all a show. I've seen no reason to believe that has changed.

PS. Your spelling is off. Is English not your native tongue?

[Dan Winterland]

I watched in amazement as a whole planeload of soldiers returning to the UK from Canada were security checked. Every one of them had to put his rifle through the x-ray machine. What were security looking for?

Weapons!

(This was pre 9/11. Probably wouldn't happen now!).

[Poltergeist]

lone wolf, the questions now, where still asked, are part of the evidence chain establishing the ownership. The lawyers will have to say how valid that one is. for me they have little value like the visa waiver question 'have you ever been involved in espionage? ' I guess if you say yes you can enter as you have to be one of the worlds worst spies!!

[stuckgear]

Some will disagree, but since some of the 9/11 terrorists were pilots with ID

NVPilot,

That's slightly spurious. To my knowledge, none had been issued with Airline ID's. They had local ID's and driving licences which were used for identity to travel as passengers. None had bypassed security using Airline issued ID's and all travelled as 'SLF'.

[koi]

I do agree with much said to date.
The balence of power may never now be restored.
Much has to do with the type of people employed in any security force and in any country, the people it attracts and the qualifications and skills /training that they do not possess, often venting their envy and frustration onto the crew and travelling public.
How easily do you allow an ungloved hand to check your body and belongings, transferring all the previous folks forensic traces onto yours. Have a look at the British Police and the very public trauma over their attitudes and behaviours. This all goes far and wide as we are constantly reminded. We are all potential or actual wrongdoers in their eyes. From top politicians who disgrace themselves down to the common thief.
I will always remember the first person onto the flight deck of my Boeing, having abandoned takeoff near V1-with the number three turbine casing ripping open. You'd think it would be cabin crew, but to my surprise it was a good old British Policeman who lean't over with a hello hello, what seems to be the matter sirs. I cant remember what I told him.
cheers Koi

[fireflybob]

The simple answer is we need a Revolution now (it would be nice if it was bloodless but I fear that would be impossible).

Government is there to protect and serve the people and not to interfere unduly in citizens everyday lives.

Have a read of Vernon Coleman's excellent book "Bloodless Revolution" or even "2020" - the latter contains his predictions for 2020 - I fear he may well be correct.

It's too late to go tinkering around at the edges - the only way to get radical change is action by the people.

[stuckgear]

I will always remember the first person onto the flight deck of my Boeing, having abandoned takeoff near V1-with the number three turbine casing ripping open. You'd think it would be cabin crew, but to my surprise it was a good old British Policeman who lean't over with a hello hello, what seems to be the matter sirs. I cant remember what I told him.

It fell down the stairs, guv'nor?

[west lakes]

Incidents like this should make governments sit up and take notice of what is really going on

BBC News - US 'sorry' for frisking of India ex-leader Abdul Kalam

[ExSp33db1rd]

I watched in amazement as a whole planeload of soldiers returning to the UK from Canada were security checked. Every one of them had to put his rifle through the x-ray machine. What were security looking for?

As per post #74.

[silverstrata]

For silverstrata and JW411:

Appreciate your seasoning this thread with some sanity to counter Poltergeist's marshmellows and hot air.

Oh, there's more in spades.

Security at XXX (UK) decided to do a random search of our aircraft one day. So they sent two Pakistanis in national dress to search the aircraft....!!

You have never seen a crew do such a thorough search after they left.


.

[Piltdown Man]

I'm pretty sure that the numpties in security have no right to board any aircraft to do anything. Police, Customs, CAA, DfT Inspectors and Immigration Officers all have the right (in fact they are all more than welcome (with the exception of the Wallys from DfT), they'll even get a cup of tea), but I draw the line at security personnel... for security reasons.

PM

[Algol]

Incidents like this should make governments sit up and take notice of what is really going on

BBC News - US 'sorry' for frisking of India ex-leader Abdul Kalam

I remember passing through the security theatre at JFK once, and while waiting for my flight bag to emerge from the x-ray machine I witnessed a fat and uncouth 'supervisor' roar at his TSA minion ' I DON'T CARE IF HE'S THE F'KN PRESIDENT OF THE US, HE GOES THROUGH SECURITY JUST LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE!!'.

Evidently the numpty never read the Diplomatic Protocols either.
I'd have loved to see what the Secret Service (SS!) would do to him if he tried it on the POTUS.

[thermostat]

Security

NVpilot, as far as I know, none of them were in uniform, none had airside passes. They were all ticket holders who just happened to rent a simulator and practice how to fly it. They didn't even practice how to land the thing. Their instructor should have suspected something and made the alarm. No pilot working for a legitimate airline, in uniform, with a pass, should be treated as if he/she is a terrorist. Not after going through the mountain of checks to get the airside pass. Please don't give the public such wrong information. We should not have to pay the price for a country that allowed in so many ways, 9/11 to happen. You gave them visas, you trained them in Florida, you rented them a simulator to practice on. You were told that something was cooking and you chose to ignore it. Now we have to put up with all this crap because every one is so paranoid. I still say, boycott, boycott, boycott. Enough is enough. They can't operate without pilots, all it needs is balls on the part of the pilots.

[mini]

As an ex forces dude who made a penny on the international security advisor circuit, I'm glad I "retired" when I did..

PS I,still get job offers almost daily, most of which are pathetic beyound belief.

fishtits, bugged out in 2005.

[Lemain]

I flew back on a German aircraft two days ago and the order was given for the seat backs to be put upright for landing except the guy in front said he would not. The crew overlooked this as he was a premium card holder, yes, I overheard the conversation. in view of this being a safety requirement I guess the crew could qualify for the title of numpty. On your logic does that mean all crew are numpties?

Probably very intelligent and wise, experienced FAs, I suspect. Seats have to be up so that pax behind can adopt emergency brace position in an emergency. In some cases it's obviously not a problem if plenty of space, in the estimation of the FA. In any case FA might have decided that it's wiser to address that one seat issue in an emergency than have an argument just before landing with a difficult pax. Now if ALL the seats were back, of course that would be different, but just one is probably not a problem. Probably full marks to the FA who made that decision.

[Poltergeist]

So we all do what we want unchallenged because it avoids an argument? fyi the regulator does not agree, the seats are put in the upright position to allow egress by the row behind unhindered according to them. Or maybe they are just numpties too?

[GlueBall]

The politicians don't dare restrain them in case they are seen by the press as being weak on terrorists

...The answer closer to the truth is because senators and congressmen are usually exempt from such commoners' indignities; they are whisked through diplomatic or VIP lanes. And that's how power hungry TSA bullies have taken on a life of their own. And the big dull bulk of airline staff just roll over and put up with this crap.

thermostat...

First, all aircrew must have security "airside" passes to enter "security" areas on the airport.

...That may help at your home country airport in your home country; but not at Heathrow, Shanghai or Sydney...or are you suggesting that we carry a bag full of airport passes for all the world's airports on your routes?

[777boyo]

Security etc

As a mere airline pilot with no experience at all of things which flash or go bang, can someone please enlighten me? Every time I pass through our crew security process on the way to work, I'm compelled to remove my footwear ("Shoes, Captain, Shoes!") when the metal detector bleeps alarmingly (which is 99% of the time due to the medical-certificate-supported steel pin in my leg) . I've always assumed that this is a result of the "Shoe Bomber" and his activities, but surely, the material he had concealed in his shoe would not have been detected by a metal-detector? So why the shoe removal, even for pax? An explanation would make me much better disposed to the security guys....who have so far been unable to give me a plausible one .

7B