security, restore the balance of power
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The problem is not security staff doing their job its the total lack of common sense. You say you are slf so am pretty sure you don't have to deal with this 
day in day out.
Can't take brie through but cheddar is ok, managed to convince them to let me keep the munster as it was not quite as soft as the brie.
Not allowed a bottle of water, but ok to buy a few liters of flammable liquid once through security.
Had a salad once to eat on the flight, was confiscated as could not verify the dressing totaled less than 100ml.
Have had a metal fork removed from my bag due to the security risk. On the plane have metal forks and knives, a couple of crow bars and also my right hand connected to a 275 tonne metal tube with 100,000+ liters of fuel in it.
Had a meatball sandwich from subway confiscated, although they agreed the sauce totaled less than 100ml you could in fact mash the meatballs into the sauce to create a paste of more than 100ml.
In some countries/airports it is totally out of control.
day in day out. Can't take brie through but cheddar is ok, managed to convince them to let me keep the munster as it was not quite as soft as the brie.
Not allowed a bottle of water, but ok to buy a few liters of flammable liquid once through security.
Had a salad once to eat on the flight, was confiscated as could not verify the dressing totaled less than 100ml.
Have had a metal fork removed from my bag due to the security risk. On the plane have metal forks and knives, a couple of crow bars and also my right hand connected to a 275 tonne metal tube with 100,000+ liters of fuel in it.
Had a meatball sandwich from subway confiscated, although they agreed the sauce totaled less than 100ml you could in fact mash the meatballs into the sauce to create a paste of more than 100ml.
In some countries/airports it is totally out of control.
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A long long time ago
When I started this thread it was in an attempt to restore some balance to the UK security system, at the time a Govenment body was looking into the future regulation of the UK airport security system and the way it was regulated and implemented.
It is an unfortunate truth that with the growth of air travel the idiots in society have greater access to flights and so the security problem won't go away and so airport security will be with us for the foreseeable future.
With this in mind I was keen to get the people in the airline industry to make submissions to the Govenment body that is to shape the future of airport security in the UK.
The pages above are full of incidents of security ( shal we say ) bad practice, all that has done is turn the airport staff against the security system following the self destruction of any respect or faith in their ability to deal with anything of importance resulting from their own petty actions.
My hope is that if CHIRP gets a formal role to investigate the actions of security staff and take action to resolve issues this will result in a much better and secure environment, the security system might eventually recover some respect from airport workers, but this will be an uphill struggle.
I just thank my luck that since having started this thread my work is now mostly in Scandinavia were security staff are polite and respectfull, I suspect this stance allows them to be more vidulant as unlike in the UK they don't waist time being rude and aggressive.
It will be interesting to see what the Govenment body recommends for the future of UK airport security, my submission made it clear that the system needed more oversight if results were to be improved and respect return. I hope others took the trouble to make submissions as this is the only way we will return the balance of power to aviation professionals and have pointless rules and rude petty operatives removed.
It is an unfortunate truth that with the growth of air travel the idiots in society have greater access to flights and so the security problem won't go away and so airport security will be with us for the foreseeable future.
With this in mind I was keen to get the people in the airline industry to make submissions to the Govenment body that is to shape the future of airport security in the UK.
The pages above are full of incidents of security ( shal we say ) bad practice, all that has done is turn the airport staff against the security system following the self destruction of any respect or faith in their ability to deal with anything of importance resulting from their own petty actions.
My hope is that if CHIRP gets a formal role to investigate the actions of security staff and take action to resolve issues this will result in a much better and secure environment, the security system might eventually recover some respect from airport workers, but this will be an uphill struggle.
I just thank my luck that since having started this thread my work is now mostly in Scandinavia were security staff are polite and respectfull, I suspect this stance allows them to be more vidulant as unlike in the UK they don't waist time being rude and aggressive.
It will be interesting to see what the Govenment body recommends for the future of UK airport security, my submission made it clear that the system needed more oversight if results were to be improved and respect return. I hope others took the trouble to make submissions as this is the only way we will return the balance of power to aviation professionals and have pointless rules and rude petty operatives removed.
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@msbbarratt
Singularly, you have completely ignored the most obvious way for terrorist carnage in your attempts to justify the inept PC bound security checks in uk airports.
"all I said was I hope they aren't going to Dundee" boy that got me in trouble....
"all I said was I hope they aren't going to Dundee" boy that got me in trouble....
Last edited by glad rag; 4th Jul 2012 at 17:00.
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Security 'Numpties' don't tell you how to fly your mostly automatic plane, why should you pass comment on their job?
Last edited by blimey; 4th Jul 2012 at 17:46.
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A Titan 737 flight arrived at Exeter 'en route' from Lourdes in France to Stansted, at the beginning of June.
80 got off at EXT the 50 old, disabled, sick, transiting passengers were then invited to disembark for a security check.
They all went through the magic arch, and then struggled back up the steps to the aircraft, there was no immigration or other check, they got all that at STN.
These were a part of a private group, all had travelled out together, they were coming back from our nearest neighbour country, France, but the dept. of Transport have decreed that French security is not strict enough, hence get them all off, and recheck them.
Now the organisers have been billed £750.00 just to pay for a security check !
Plus of course Titan have been billed for all the usual high rates at EXT.
Crazy or what
80 got off at EXT the 50 old, disabled, sick, transiting passengers were then invited to disembark for a security check.
They all went through the magic arch, and then struggled back up the steps to the aircraft, there was no immigration or other check, they got all that at STN.
These were a part of a private group, all had travelled out together, they were coming back from our nearest neighbour country, France, but the dept. of Transport have decreed that French security is not strict enough, hence get them all off, and recheck them.
Now the organisers have been billed £750.00 just to pay for a security check !
Plus of course Titan have been billed for all the usual high rates at EXT.
Crazy or what
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To the brave slf poster above, the pertinent points are to prove security pretty pointless for air crew, and those are iterated with reference to large amounts of kerosene, tonnes of metal under our control. If we are a security threat, requiring checks as to whether we have more than 100ml of liquid in our bags, why are we allowed a license and crew pass which gives us access to the aircraft and its controls? What is the point in checking us at all, taking a benign bottle of water from us yet still then allowing us access to the flight deck and its firefighting equipment, some of which could be construed, in the wrong hands as a deadly weapon?
The answer is that there is no point. No point whatsoever. It is needless, futile and a waste time and money.
Trying to appease us as to why the idiocy occurs is similarly futile. The fact is that it occurs and it's daft.
The answer is that there is no point. No point whatsoever. It is needless, futile and a waste time and money.
Trying to appease us as to why the idiocy occurs is similarly futile. The fact is that it occurs and it's daft.
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I have to add
In my post above I said that my submission to the body investigating UK airport security made it clear that more oversight was needed, what I failed to make clear in my post above was that this oversight MUST be independent of the UK security industry as this is the only way that any sort of balance might return.
I made it crystal clear that the security industry ramps up threats and paranoia for its own ends, the more the politicians are worried about being seen to be weak on terrorism the more minimum wage numptys charged at sky high rates the industry can employ and make a fat Proffit from.
On an industry wide perspective independent oversight will restrain the costs to the airline industry of the security parasites, from an individual perspective it will give you and I the users of the system a route for complant and redress that avoids court action or calling the police and unlike at the moment it will also avoid the investigation being carried out by the bosses of the people who cause us as crew so much trouble.
I do hope that the airlines who no doubt made submissions to the contaltation made these points clear as the cost of security and more importantly the way it is implemented is having a corrosive effect on the profitability of airlines and by default the job security of airline staff.
I made it crystal clear that the security industry ramps up threats and paranoia for its own ends, the more the politicians are worried about being seen to be weak on terrorism the more minimum wage numptys charged at sky high rates the industry can employ and make a fat Proffit from.
On an industry wide perspective independent oversight will restrain the costs to the airline industry of the security parasites, from an individual perspective it will give you and I the users of the system a route for complant and redress that avoids court action or calling the police and unlike at the moment it will also avoid the investigation being carried out by the bosses of the people who cause us as crew so much trouble.
I do hope that the airlines who no doubt made submissions to the contaltation made these points clear as the cost of security and more importantly the way it is implemented is having a corrosive effect on the profitability of airlines and by default the job security of airline staff.
Last edited by A and C; 5th Jul 2012 at 08:58.
Why not have a planned and organized mass walk out of all commercial pilots and cabin crew for 1-3 days and ground every commercial flight until sensibility and common sense is restored in this completly screwed up system.
Am not saying I agree with all his union's tactics on every occasion but compare this to Bob Crowe at the RMT - if their "members" were subject to this abuse on a daily basis there would be an immediate 24 strike bringing the network to a halt and the politicians would have it fixed pronto!
I agree totally that this is what is required but the question is how to organise it?
Well - form a union - but most PProoners don't like unions because it isn't the right wing thing to do.
So the whole 'There is power in a union' goes out of the window.
Ever felt like you've been cheated?
So the whole 'There is power in a union' goes out of the window.
Ever felt like you've been cheated?
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Countdown conundrum.
I doubt if you're sorry. Your comments are offensive. It is my daughter you refer to and how dare you make assumptions about her past efforts or potential. I know not of your life's trials and tribulations and you know nothing of hers.
In point of fact she has left baa now and has moved on.
However, she is not and has never been a numpty and the vast majority (granted not all) of her friends and colleagues are friendly and diligent people performing their jobs as they have been tasked to do.
Given the content and tone of yours and others postings I would suggest that the attitude you receive from security if the same as the one you present to them.
Rant away if it makes you feel better but it will change nothing.
I doubt if you're sorry. Your comments are offensive. It is my daughter you refer to and how dare you make assumptions about her past efforts or potential. I know not of your life's trials and tribulations and you know nothing of hers.
In point of fact she has left baa now and has moved on.
However, she is not and has never been a numpty and the vast majority (granted not all) of her friends and colleagues are friendly and diligent people performing their jobs as they have been tasked to do.
Given the content and tone of yours and others postings I would suggest that the attitude you receive from security if the same as the one you present to them.
Rant away if it makes you feel better but it will change nothing.
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Change?
Gusting 45 Quote:- "Rant away if it makes you feel better but it will change nothing."
That is exactly what Countdowncondrum was getting at.
Sadly, the peolple of the U.K are a pushover, the resolute fighting spirit has long gone.
Why else would you be the servants of foreign powers in Brussels/Strasburg, without even a whimper?
That is exactly what Countdowncondrum was getting at.
Sadly, the peolple of the U.K are a pushover, the resolute fighting spirit has long gone.
Why else would you be the servants of foreign powers in Brussels/Strasburg, without even a whimper?
Last edited by FERetd; 5th Jul 2012 at 14:47.
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Gusting 45
While not wishing to get into personal abuse about individuals I am afraid that the way airport workers are treated by security staff as a whole (some are good but they are few and far between) is indicated well by the attitude of Countdown Conundrum.
If this attitude came from one individual I would side with you but Unfortunatly there are well documented accounts of hundeds of inccidents involving shall we just call it over zealous behavior bu UK security staff.
To my mind the best way to solve the problem is independent oversight of the security system ( just as I said in my submission to the UK government consultation ) the security staff who are doing a good job would have nothing to fear from this however those who see their workday as an opportunity to take revenge on those of us who have climbed a little further up the career ladder would find life a little more difficult.
I would like to see the security staff at UK airports seen with respect by other airport workers, perhaps a little independent oversight might improve the general standard of behavior to a position were the security system deserves that respect.
If this attitude came from one individual I would side with you but Unfortunatly there are well documented accounts of hundeds of inccidents involving shall we just call it over zealous behavior bu UK security staff.
To my mind the best way to solve the problem is independent oversight of the security system ( just as I said in my submission to the UK government consultation ) the security staff who are doing a good job would have nothing to fear from this however those who see their workday as an opportunity to take revenge on those of us who have climbed a little further up the career ladder would find life a little more difficult.
I would like to see the security staff at UK airports seen with respect by other airport workers, perhaps a little independent oversight might improve the general standard of behavior to a position were the security system deserves that respect.
Last edited by A and C; 5th Jul 2012 at 15:04.
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I'm very sorry to have said she should have worked harder etc..
Sure it was just a passing gig.. She's moved on now, so calling them numpties technically isn't directed at her.. Besides any of that, I wouldn't think for a minute she's anything other than brilliant, talented and friendly!
Anyway..
The staff at Stn for instance prove they're numpties often.. Jumped up w*^%#s you can read the expressions on their faces and tone of their voice.. I know what they are thinking.. Oh here comes another pilot earning 10 times what I do, he gets to work in an environment of stunning wonders.. Let's take him down a peg or two.. And take his chap stick!
In Italy, they are friendly, respectful and efficient. I've never been delayed, bag searched or spoken down to. They call you sir and behave as if they are just doing they're job.. Their uk counterparts seem to enjoy the clash with the crew and patronising them.. They don't respond to being questioned and threaten with not letting you through or reporting you to your company etc etc.. A classic case of put up, shut up..
I've flown in most parts of the world and the uk stands out..
What on earth would motivate someone to treat the aircrew as suspected terrorists.. It purely satisfies their own ego and fuels their filthy perversions.. The problem is the DFT don't seem to give a damn. Pilots are irrelevant..
This whole thread stands testament to the fact there's a serious problem, and the tail is indeed wagging the dog.. If this many people have heard that many stories and witnessed events themselves.. There's a serious issue here..
it is them and us.. We hate them.. We don't need them.. Let's fight back
Sure it was just a passing gig.. She's moved on now, so calling them numpties technically isn't directed at her.. Besides any of that, I wouldn't think for a minute she's anything other than brilliant, talented and friendly!
Anyway..
The staff at Stn for instance prove they're numpties often.. Jumped up w*^%#s you can read the expressions on their faces and tone of their voice.. I know what they are thinking.. Oh here comes another pilot earning 10 times what I do, he gets to work in an environment of stunning wonders.. Let's take him down a peg or two.. And take his chap stick!
In Italy, they are friendly, respectful and efficient. I've never been delayed, bag searched or spoken down to. They call you sir and behave as if they are just doing they're job.. Their uk counterparts seem to enjoy the clash with the crew and patronising them.. They don't respond to being questioned and threaten with not letting you through or reporting you to your company etc etc.. A classic case of put up, shut up..
I've flown in most parts of the world and the uk stands out..
What on earth would motivate someone to treat the aircrew as suspected terrorists.. It purely satisfies their own ego and fuels their filthy perversions.. The problem is the DFT don't seem to give a damn. Pilots are irrelevant..
This whole thread stands testament to the fact there's a serious problem, and the tail is indeed wagging the dog.. If this many people have heard that many stories and witnessed events themselves.. There's a serious issue here..
it is them and us.. We hate them.. We don't need them.. Let's fight back
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When you speak of oversight, what you may not realise that the DFT are a permanent feature 24 hours a day at every airport with a screening function. The oversight is there, you may not like it but it exists.
Your ire should be directed at the DFT not those who apply it's directives.
You say you dislike the intrusiveness, neither do I, but that is what is mandated.
If you have an enemy per se it is the DFT.
I would suspect that I 'suffer' more at the hands of the security system more than you. I have had orthopaedic surgery which left me with stainless steel bits. Every time I pass through screening I set off the scanner, every time I get the full treatment. It is a nuisance, boring and in my mind nonsensical, but, it is the system. I don't resent the fact that the security personnel do their job. It is their job.
There is a problem with the zealousness which UK plc has adopted the security machine. One has only to witness the full scale alert on the M6 toll road today. Somebody light up an electronic cigarette on a bus. Full scale security alert ensued.
The gratitude for this state of affairs must go to the political hierarchy of this country who have made it a top line target.
As an aside, I'm not British, although living/working in England so have no personal agenda one way or the other.
I will be leaving these shores behind me some time soon, apart from the turnarounds that is, and can look forward to the more cordial security environment described elsewhere.
I suspect that we agree on the inadequacies of security screening not to mention its absurdities, however, I will face it with a smile rather than a snarl as this achieves the best result for me.
The only exception I really take to some of the comments above is the personal abuse and rudeness. You clearly, from your comments, don't like to be the recipients but are at the same time quite happy to dole it out.
As a final remark, thank goodness, if threatened with being reported by an obnoxious security officer, say fine and go with the process. You will not be the loser. I have done so in the past and it is the best way to illustrate that their actions are inappropriate. I have also handed them my company mobile and offered to have them speak to my crewing department and duty pilot so they can explain why it is that I am unable to report for my assigned duty. It works wonders, you should try, it provides a moral victory and is much more satisfying than huffing and puffing here.
Your ire should be directed at the DFT not those who apply it's directives.
You say you dislike the intrusiveness, neither do I, but that is what is mandated.
If you have an enemy per se it is the DFT.
I would suspect that I 'suffer' more at the hands of the security system more than you. I have had orthopaedic surgery which left me with stainless steel bits. Every time I pass through screening I set off the scanner, every time I get the full treatment. It is a nuisance, boring and in my mind nonsensical, but, it is the system. I don't resent the fact that the security personnel do their job. It is their job.
There is a problem with the zealousness which UK plc has adopted the security machine. One has only to witness the full scale alert on the M6 toll road today. Somebody light up an electronic cigarette on a bus. Full scale security alert ensued.
The gratitude for this state of affairs must go to the political hierarchy of this country who have made it a top line target.
As an aside, I'm not British, although living/working in England so have no personal agenda one way or the other.
I will be leaving these shores behind me some time soon, apart from the turnarounds that is, and can look forward to the more cordial security environment described elsewhere.
I suspect that we agree on the inadequacies of security screening not to mention its absurdities, however, I will face it with a smile rather than a snarl as this achieves the best result for me.
The only exception I really take to some of the comments above is the personal abuse and rudeness. You clearly, from your comments, don't like to be the recipients but are at the same time quite happy to dole it out.
As a final remark, thank goodness, if threatened with being reported by an obnoxious security officer, say fine and go with the process. You will not be the loser. I have done so in the past and it is the best way to illustrate that their actions are inappropriate. I have also handed them my company mobile and offered to have them speak to my crewing department and duty pilot so they can explain why it is that I am unable to report for my assigned duty. It works wonders, you should try, it provides a moral victory and is much more satisfying than huffing and puffing here.
Authority Without Responsibility
In 1971 a psychology experiment that has become known as the Stanford Prison Experiment had to be abandoned early because the subject selected as "guards" became abusive of the subjects selected as "prisoners".
My take-away from the Stanford Prison Experiment is that people given authority over others without accountability or responsibility will always abuse those under their authority.
Since 9/11, a real-world Stanford Prison Experiment has played out in the world's airports. For the most part, the screeners are recruited from a different population than aircrew, airport professionals and the traveling public - so they are already primed with an us-versus-them mentality that accelerates their descent into abuse.
Until and unless screeners are subjected to severe consequences for abusing crew, staff and passengers, I do not see how the situation can get better.
I wish I had a better solution. For now, I fly as infrequently as I can. That's a solution for me as a retired aviation professional, but dosen't work for working professionals.
I can promise you that if a flight I am scheduled on is cancelled due to crew stress caused by screener abuse, I will place the blame where it belongs - on the TSA thugs.
My take-away from the Stanford Prison Experiment is that people given authority over others without accountability or responsibility will always abuse those under their authority.
Since 9/11, a real-world Stanford Prison Experiment has played out in the world's airports. For the most part, the screeners are recruited from a different population than aircrew, airport professionals and the traveling public - so they are already primed with an us-versus-them mentality that accelerates their descent into abuse.
Until and unless screeners are subjected to severe consequences for abusing crew, staff and passengers, I do not see how the situation can get better.
I wish I had a better solution. For now, I fly as infrequently as I can. That's a solution for me as a retired aviation professional, but dosen't work for working professionals.
I can promise you that if a flight I am scheduled on is cancelled due to crew stress caused by screener abuse, I will place the blame where it belongs - on the TSA thugs.
Last edited by twb3; 6th Jul 2012 at 00:40.
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gusting 45
I am not sure if your reply was aimed in my direction but if you read my post carefully you will see that I want independent oversight of the SECURITY SYSTEM, to my mind that includes the DfT as well as the airport security providers.
These forums are usually a safety valve to enable people to let off a little steam, I hope that some of them took the time to take part in the government consultation that I flagged up when I started this thread as it is only by perusing the aim of a better security system by democratic means that we have any chance of improving the system.
These forums are usually a safety valve to enable people to let off a little steam, I hope that some of them took the time to take part in the government consultation that I flagged up when I started this thread as it is only by perusing the aim of a better security system by democratic means that we have any chance of improving the system.
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Is this news?
Its been well recognised for some time that many delussional pilots think they are exempt from security.
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...nce-power.html
Its been well recognised for some time that many delussional pilots think they are exempt from security.
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...nce-power.html
Last edited by Shell Management; 6th Jul 2012 at 15:02.